Switch Theme:

Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Roberts84 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
Reposting this. Because Flandarz has a point.

Not dying is useful. But if that's the ONLY thing you do? (And T1, that's the only thing Ghaz does.) Not worth it.

T2? He charges a screen. Yay. Unless you take him in an infantry-heavy list... In which case, he's the only target for the anti-tank weapons, in which case he gets an absolute max of three turns.


There's not dying and there's being nigh-unkillable to the point that one needs to dedicate virtually all one's high AP High damage weaponry to remove it from play.This totally changes an opponent's tactics because of a single unit. In fact I'd take a potato with zero attacks with his special rules assuming my opponent was forced to clear it.

You might not think he's OP on balance, but that special rule has absolutely no business in this game, and I think you know that.
First off, GEE! What gave you the idea I thought the rule was bad? Was it, my first post in this thread, where I said the rule was bad?

Second off, you do not need to dedicate all your high-AP weaponry. You need to dedicate exactly enough to do 4 wounds in a phase. Which is about one Lascannon Devastator squad.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
Reposting this. Because Flandarz has a point.

Not dying is useful. But if that's the ONLY thing you do? (And T1, that's the only thing Ghaz does.) Not worth it.

T2? He charges a screen. Yay. Unless you take him in an infantry-heavy list... In which case, he's the only target for the anti-tank weapons, in which case he gets an absolute max of three turns.


There's not dying and there's being nigh-unkillable to the point that one needs to dedicate virtually all one's high AP High damage weaponry to remove it from play.This totally changes an opponent's tactics because of a single unit. In fact I'd take a potato with zero attacks with his special rules assuming my opponent was forced to clear it.

You might not think he's OP on balance, but that special rule has absolutely no business in this game, and I think you know that.
First off, GEE! What gave you the idea I thought the rule was bad? Was it, my first post in this thread, where I said the rule was bad?

Second off, you do not need to dedicate all your high-AP weaponry. You need to dedicate exactly enough to do 4 wounds in a phase. Which is about one Lascannon Devastator squad.


You'll never know exactly how many resources you will need to dedicate to achieve this. No human being who has ever lived or ever will could do know such a thing. That's not a case worth making. We've been over this.

I guarantee you Ghaz becomes a feature of every ranked Orks list moving forward. He'll become an autotake in 2k games.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

No, you won't know ahead of time...

But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

What JNA said. Attack with one unit. Not enough? Try with another. Still not enough? Continue on until it is, then fire everything else at other targets. If you're only taking enough anti-armor to deal 4 Wounds to a T7 Sv4++ unit, then you're probably not taking enough to deal with any actual threatening units. I'd wager you can deal those 4 Wounds with, at most, 2 units with proper anti-armor. Then you ignore him until the next time you can deal damage to him.


Alternatively, bog him down with a chaff unit and literally ignore him for the rest of the game. You could drop an 80pt Guardsman unit onto him and, unless your opponent brings over some Boys to help him out, he's gonna be there until you've basically won the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 02:45:19


 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
No, you won't know ahead of time...

But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.


The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Roberts84 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
No, you won't know ahead of time...

But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.


The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
I run a melee army-as in, in a 2k list, I can feasibly have one gun. And it's a pistol.

And you know what? If my opponent brought Ghaz, I'd give absolutely zero feths, because even if I couldn't kill him, I could tarpit him with a unit cheaper than him for literally the entire game.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
No, you won't know ahead of time...

But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.


The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
I run a melee army-as in, in a 2k list, I can feasibly have one gun. And it's a pistol.

And you know what? If my opponent brought Ghaz, I'd give absolutely zero feths, because even if I couldn't kill him, I could tarpit him with a unit cheaper than him for literally the entire game.


Yes well not all of us have ten thousand pox walkers to throw at him. There are no space marines equivalents for this.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Roberts84 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
No, you won't know ahead of time...

But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.


The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
I run a melee army-as in, in a 2k list, I can feasibly have one gun. And it's a pistol.

And you know what? If my opponent brought Ghaz, I'd give absolutely zero feths, because even if I couldn't kill him, I could tarpit him with a unit cheaper than him for literally the entire game.


Yes well not all of us have ten thousand pox walkers to throw at him. There are no space marines equivalents for this.
I don't run Death Guard.

And Marines have every capability of killing him in ONE turn. They've got great shooting, good assault, and good psychic. Or just tie him up with Scouts.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
No, you won't know ahead of time...

But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.


The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
I run a melee army-as in, in a 2k list, I can feasibly have one gun. And it's a pistol.

And you know what? If my opponent brought Ghaz, I'd give absolutely zero feths, because even if I couldn't kill him, I could tarpit him with a unit cheaper than him for literally the entire game.


Yes well not all of us have ten thousand pox walkers to throw at him. There are no space marines equivalents for this.
I don't run Death Guard.

And Marines have every capability of killing him in ONE turn. They've got great shooting, good assault, and good psychic. Or just tie him up with Scouts.


You're kidding, right? Scouts? You obviously don't play Imperium either.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Toss two squads of scouts his way, and he's stuck for a turn. Sure, that's about a hundred points, but considering you chipped four wounds off last turn at the minimum and he's now in Smite range...

Yeah, no. Marines should not be scared of Ghaz.

Roberts84 wrote:
You're kidding, right? Scouts? You obviously don't play Imperium either.
Also, since you're snarking at me like that, I'm not honestly sure you know the rules of the game. You don't know that unique characters have fixed warlord traits, you seem to believe that you must allocate all shooting at once (instead of just all shooting from one unit at once), and you clearly have no idea of what makes a unit good.

Again, I'll agree that the damage cap is bad design. But that doesn't make Ghaz OP. It makes the design bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 03:00:45


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Toss two squads of scouts his way, and he's stuck for a turn. Sure, that's about a hundred points, but considering you chipped four wounds off last turn at the minimum and he's now in Smite range...

Yeah, no. Marines should not be scared of Ghaz.

Roberts84 wrote:
You're kidding, right? Scouts? You obviously don't play Imperium either.
Also, since you're snarking at me like that, I'm not honestly sure you know the rules of the game. You don't know that unique characters have fixed warlord traits, you seem to believe that you must allocate all shooting at once (instead of just all shooting from one unit at once), and you clearly have no idea of what makes a unit good.

Again, I'll agree that the damage cap is bad design. But that doesn't make Ghaz OP. It makes the design bad.


I never said, nor implied, that 'all shooting must be allocated at once'. That's on you for poor reading comprehension.

Playing scouts that way would defeat the purpose of scouts. I mean really, they are pretty much just there to camp objectives and plink off the odd wound on chaff--unless you make them snipers in which case you definitely wouldn't want to toss them at Ghaz. also. The strategy you have submitted would be, for RG, about the worst of all possibilities. I'm not saying you couldn't do it but it wouldn't be smart, and they're going to do nothing to him in melee in all probability anyway because knives have no AP. So you'd be sacrificing them to give up objectives to keep him locked down for max one turn and you'd be lucky to put a wound on him.

Honestly this reeks of more of the 'I hate SM marines so therefore they have a counter to everything' attitude which seems to dominate these threads.
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

40 points of cultists or guardsmen a turn and Ghaz is just a pretty face with a big price tag. Fare trade.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.


His impact on Tau didn't even occur to me. Huh. The idea of Ghaz parked in front of Tau castle smashing suits and drones like flies while they can basically do nothing to him other than 4 wounds per round is...never mind.

I change my mind. Ghaz is fine. Needs more wounds and attacks if anything.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Roberts84 wrote:

I never said, nor implied, that 'all shooting must be allocated at once'. That's on you for poor reading comprehension.


Based on your posts, I sincerely wondered if your local gaming group played with a variant rule where you had to allocate all your shooting in advance. You might not know exactly how much damage a given model will do to Ghaz when you shoot, but an understanding of averages and a rough notion of your army's abilities based on experience should give you a decent clue. And if you roll a bit below average? Toss some spare shots from another unit at him until you either hit 4 wounds or decide your remaining guns are better spent elsewhere.

You seem to be really perturbed by the idea of "overwounding" (as opposed to overkilling) Ghaz. Say I whittled my opponent's cultist unit down to two models remaining in my previous turn. My new turn comes around. Technically, I risk overklling the unit if I fire a single heavy bolter at them because the heavy bolter might do 3 wounds. But that doesn't mean firing the heavy bolter at them is somehow the worst idea in the world. And if my heavy bolter only kills 1 cultist? I can pick up the other with a stray bolter shot from somewhere in my army. I don't have to commit a reuplsor's worth of shooting to finish that last guy off. Similarly, it's not necessarily a terrible idea to shoot a lascannon at an enemy vehicle with 2 wounds left. Sure, I could gamble on some bolters picking off the last 2 wounds, but the lascannon's increased chances of wounding and getting through the tank's armor gives me a reason to use it over the bolters.

All the 4 wound cap does is guarantee you can't burst Ghaz down in a single phase. As expensive and durable as he is, you don't even have to feel bad about using your anti-tank on him.
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Lammia wrote:
Lammia's hot take: The Swarmlord is a bigger threat than Ghaz

T1 charge enabler vs +1 atk - Swarmy
Psychic powers vs shooting - Swarmy
Heal Stratagem + max 4 wounds/phase vs hiding behind a wall sending ballistic velocity melee squads forward and a 3++ in melee when you run out and charge Swarmy forwards - Swarmy
6 S8 attacks + the odd mortal wound vs 5 S16 - 7 S10 attacks - tie
Well, damn.

   
Made in ca
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





Wow, it didn't take long for this thread to show up, I wonder who...looks at OP's name ...uhhhh yup, I guess that makes sense.

Look, if you're going to complain about something being broken, at least have a sound understanding of the game first before going off into a tangent that basically gets disproven before it starts. You must be really crapping your pants from seeing Ragnar Blackmane's rules then, given his blenderific abilities to basically wipe out anything he touches if you get the right stratagems off.

Nobody tell him Makari has a 2+ invuln., his head might explode.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 04:58:31


My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Grimskul wrote:
Wow, it didn't take long for this thread to show up, I wonder who...looks at OP's name ...uhhhh yup, I guess that makes sense.

Look, if you're going to complain about something being broken, at least have a sound understanding of the game first before going off into a tangent that basically gets disproven before it starts. You must be really crapping your pants from seeing Ragnar Blackmane's rules then, given his blenderific abilities to basically wipe out anything he touches if you get the right stratagems off.

Nobody tell him Makari has a 2+ invuln., his head might explode.


ol Ah yes, another 40K player thinking this game is 'difficult'. Spoiler; it isn't. It's literally a game of dice-- an odds game with deep units, and datasets which is completely dependent on roll outcomes. It's almost a lottery. This might hurt your ego a bit, but compared to competitive play I am used to, this stuff is just cute. And that's fine, because I neither need, nor want it to be more than what it is. It's great the way it is. Do I respect ranked 40K players as much as ranked WOW players? No. Absolutely not. It's not the same deal and I find circuit 40K more than slightly ridiculous because it takes no intellect, nor skill, to simply max out lists of overpowered units and toss dice. No. Just No.

Anyway welcome to ignore, because I gave a mod my word I'd just slap anyone I find annoying on invisible mode rather than continue conflict.

Edit: Any replies relating to wow vs 40K will be ignored as that's not an argument I'm trying to start, and my opinion on that won't change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 05:17:11


 
   
Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot





Gulliman gets the ability to resurrect in a different phase. Celestine has the ability to resurrect in a different phase. Necron characters? Plus others I can’t think of right now. Essentially this has the similar outcome as Ghaz’s 4 wounds a phase, just that Orks don’t have to roll for him to resurrect. There’s pros and cons for the different rules, but bottom line is that he isn’t the ultra op unit you think he is.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.

LOL as if he had any buffs worth mentioning. Orks don't need an extra attack only on the charge nor do Goffs want the reroll of 1s to hit in melee for 300 points. He's super badly designed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roberts84 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Wow, it didn't take long for this thread to show up, I wonder who...looks at OP's name ...uhhhh yup, I guess that makes sense.

Look, if you're going to complain about something being broken, at least have a sound understanding of the game first before going off into a tangent that basically gets disproven before it starts. You must be really crapping your pants from seeing Ragnar Blackmane's rules then, given his blenderific abilities to basically wipe out anything he touches if you get the right stratagems off.

Nobody tell him Makari has a 2+ invuln., his head might explode.


ol Ah yes, another 40K player thinking this game is 'difficult'. Spoiler; it isn't. It's literally a game of dice-- an odds game with deep units, and datasets which is completely dependent on roll outcomes. It's almost a lottery. This might hurt your ego a bit, but compared to competitive play I am used to, this stuff is just cute. And that's fine, because I neither need, nor want it to be more than what it is. It's great the way it is. Do I respect ranked 40K players as much as ranked WOW players? No. Absolutely not. It's not the same deal and I find circuit 40K more than slightly ridiculous because it takes no intellect, nor skill, to simply max out lists of overpowered units and toss dice. No. Just No.

Anyway welcome to ignore, because I gave a mod my word I'd just slap anyone I find annoying on invisible mode rather than continue conflict.

Edit: Any replies relating to wow vs 40K will be ignored as that's not an argument I'm trying to start, and my opinion on that won't change.

>says they're used to competitive play
>thought Ghaz could pick a Warlord Trait to make himself T8, even though the rules literally say otherwise
Pick one

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 06:12:18


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




 flandarz wrote:
I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.
I don't think smart Tau should have any problems with Ghaz. They have enough useful Melee units to finish him in my experience...
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Lammia wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.
I don't think smart Tau should have any problems with Ghaz. They have enough useful Melee units to finish him in my experience...

Completely disagree, it takes 108 advanced targeting system melee attacks from Crisis (each Commander attack being worth 2 normal Crisis attacks) or 72 advanced targeting system melee attacks from Riptides to deal 4 damage to Ghaz, that's basically never going to happen. Kroot have 1 attack making them basically a shooting unit and Hounds wound on 6+ with no AP. Against Tau Ghaz is going to be unstoppable, not sure if he'll be an actual good pick despite that, he can still be tar-pitted by Shield Drones but destroying him is probably more hassle than it's worth. I wouldn't say tar-pitting him with Primaris is a good idea, that sounds like a good way to let Ghaz make himself useful. Wait until T3 and rock Assault Doctrine and 10 BA Intercessors do 4 unsaved wounds to Ghaz, same with 10 WS Intercessors. A RG thunderhammer Intercessor does 3 damage to Ghaz in Tactical Doctrine, between Overwatch and other melee damage you should be able to do another damage so you just need a total of 8 wounds with shooting. Armies shouldn't rely on dealing all their damage with Smite and not have the mobility to move around a smite screen, besides Grots are way more effective at screening smites than Ghaz and Thousand Sons have more powers available now with their free specialist detachments.
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Roberts84 wrote:
OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]


Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.

For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, any screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.

Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/24 07:38:45


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]


Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.

For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.

Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.


Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want. That's assuming civilization is continuing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/24 07:47:25


 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Roberts84 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]


Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.

For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.

Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.


Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.

I agree, it's an awesome model, there's going to be enough Ork players taking him for the rule of cool alone that that we'll see one of those top 4 at a 30+ player event and a chunk of them will go 3/2. Not within two months though, more like 9 because of the corona.
   
Made in au
Stalwart Tribune





Roberts84 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]


Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.

For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.

Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.


Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.

Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Roberts84 wrote:
That's exactly my point. He's too much of a badass to ignore, and he's too much of a sponge to clear, and is a massive waste of resources which he will force his opponent to waste because he has the most absurdly overpowered special rule the game has ever known.



Unreal.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 kastelen wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]


Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.

For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.

Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.


Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.

Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.


You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
That's exactly my point. He's too much of a badass to ignore, and he's too much of a sponge to clear, and is a massive waste of resources which he will force his opponent to waste because he has the most absurdly overpowered special rule the game has ever known.



Unreal.


So that's a yes to my wager, then? Or are you just writing words?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 07:50:05


 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Tribune





Roberts84 wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]


Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.

For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.

Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.


Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.

Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.


You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.

That is awfully aggressive for an internet argument where everyone agrees that you're wrong. IMO Ghaz will be OK for casual play with a point drop, but there's no way he's doing well at a competitive level.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 kastelen wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Roberts84 wrote:
OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]


Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.

For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.

Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.


Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.

Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.


You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.

That is awfully aggressive for an internet argument where everyone agrees that you're wrong. IMO Ghaz will be OK for casual play with a point drop, but there's no way he's doing well at a competitive level.


If you're as sure as you say you are, you'll take the bet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 07:54:13


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: