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Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 beigeknight wrote:
The silly part in all this is that the metric at which "OP" is determined is that it can't be blown off the board in a turn of shooting from across the table.

Also, if any Astartes army got a similar rule nobody would bat an eye at it.

You obviously haven't read any of the numerous threads created in the last few months about how OP loyalist marines currently are. We've mined a lot of salt out of that particular topic.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.

I'm sure, thanks to all the whining when the rule was first previewed, that it will find it's way to Imperial and Chaos units, because of course Xenos armies can't have unique and interesting rules. No doubt those units will be far superior to Ghaz with the same rule (as even with it, he sucks).

Coming from one of the whiner in chief of dakkadakka, this is funny to read.

He's also not incorrect here.
You really don't have any room to speak here at all.

The rule is at least interesting, but it does show that there's been some problems with their alpha striking.

Oh please, a bunch of people are gonna complain they want the same thing. Also Alpha Strike is the product of their core rules. Guess what? Lots of the problems that occur with the game are the result of staying with IGOUGO

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





4 wounds is a dumb, immersion breaking rule that stinks like a rotting bandaid.
They could've done so many more things "Each time this unit loses a wound improve it's FNP Save by 1, to a maximum of 2+. Lasts until the end of the turn".

Removed - Rule #1 please

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 06:45:20


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Holy gak, this thread is amazing.

Dropping him down to 9 wounds would make him immensely better.

The fact he's targetable is a death sentence without this rule, which characters like Mortarion demonstrate.

But he's not a serious threat. He's slow and expensive. You can't just point and click to kill him, but at people have laid out, you *can* outplay him and not even without that much difficulty. And we have to spend 15% of our total army just to bring him and exclude the MUCH better 80 point warboss we can now upgrade to be way better and synergize with infantry lists.

It's a crime that Ghaz has anti-synergy with infantry lists, but here we are.
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz






Gadzilla666 wrote:
 beigeknight wrote:
The silly part in all this is that the metric at which "OP" is determined is that it can't be blown off the board in a turn of shooting from across the table.

Also, if any Astartes army got a similar rule nobody would bat an eye at it.

You obviously haven't read any of the numerous threads created in the last few months about how OP loyalist marines currently are. We've mined a lot of salt out of that particular topic.


Marines have been blessed by the rules fairy for over a year now. It's pretty much the new norm. If you want to be competitive you have to be able to beat marines. The orginal post claims that Ghaz is OP because marine armies may have difficulty with him(may). That doesn't say something about the current expectation of what marines should be?

I'll show ye..... - Phillip J. Fry

Those are brave men knocking on our door! Let's go kill them! - Tyrion Lannister 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 beigeknight wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 beigeknight wrote:
The silly part in all this is that the metric at which "OP" is determined is that it can't be blown off the board in a turn of shooting from across the table.

Also, if any Astartes army got a similar rule nobody would bat an eye at it.

You obviously haven't read any of the numerous threads created in the last few months about how OP loyalist marines currently are. We've mined a lot of salt out of that particular topic.


Marines have been blessed by the rules fairy for over a year now. It's pretty much the new norm. If you want to be competitive you have to be able to beat marines. The orginal post claims that Ghaz is OP because marine armies may have difficulty with him(may). That doesn't say something about the current expectation of what marines should be?

I'd say it says something about some loyalist marines players, which the OP appears to be, namely anything they can't evaporate turn one scares them.
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd say it says something about some loyalist marines players, which the OP appears to be, namely anything they can't evaporate turn one scares them.

I posted a turn by turn breakdown of how I'd attempt to minimize his impact with my emo marines.

Frankly, I wish he was better because Orks are such a fun faction and seeing the biggest badest ork around at the top tables in major tournaments would be sweet.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:


It is for anyone else.

Or are you forgetting what is in your bloody signature...?


Ah, I see. Sorry for being human and making a simple mistake. Getting cheap petty shots in - that's what friends are for, right?


Hey, you're the one forgetting/not knowing rules in a rules discussion.... When that happens what you're saying is rendered into useless noise.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 01:41:05


 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Tribune





 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd say it says something about some loyalist marines players, which the OP appears to be, namely anything they can't evaporate turn one scares them.

I posted a turn by turn breakdown of how I'd attempt to minimize his impact with my emo marines.

Frankly, I wish he was better because Orks are such a fun faction and seeing the biggest badest ork around at the top tables in major tournaments would be sweet.

I said some loyalist marines players. I wasn't talking about you, you didn't whine, as you pointed out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 01:57:50


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 kastelen wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.

You have to select all targets before rolling any dice. You can't kill something with one unit then pick a new unit to point the rest of your shots at.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.

You have to select all targets before rolling any dice. You can't kill something with one unit then pick a new unit to point the rest of your shots at.
No, but if you have (for example) three squads of Devastators in your backlines, you can fire two-three heavies at a Gork and the last one-two at Ghaz.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.

You have to select all targets before rolling any dice. You can't kill something with one unit then pick a new unit to point the rest of your shots at.
I’m confused as to how you are using the word ‘unit’. You appear to be saying you need to allocate all shooting for all squads (units) before shooting.

Did you accidentally forget ‘units’ means ‘squads’ not ‘models’?
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

Just do some basic calculations and you minimize the amount of overkill put onto Ghaz. Say you got a unit of three Mega-Bros (theoretical example unit), that all have a Heavy 3 S8 AP-2 D3 gun that hits on 3+. You want to deal at least 4 damage to Ghaz, so you know you need at least 2 unsaved Wounds. With a 4+ Save, you'll need 4 Wounds. S8 vs T7, means you'll want about 6 hits. And with a BS3+, you'll want to fire 9 shots. On average, you should be able to deal those 4 Wounds with a single Mega-Bros unit, and as long as that unit doesn't cost 2k pts, you still have the rest of your army that can do other stuff. If you go over average, you're gonna lose some potential damage, but you'd have accomplished your goal. If you're under, you can try again.

And, of course, we all already do this for every other unit in the game. The only difference is that if you over-damage another unit, they're removed from play, while if you over-damage Ghaz he's still there. But considering the low cap on his Wounds per Phase, you shouldn't have to waste too much damage potential to deal those 4 Wounds.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





OK, this has been entertaining, from both sides.
I don't think Ghaz is all that competitive, simply because of his lack of cohesion with other units.
However, some people's responses of why he is bad is just as comical. I think many forget that Smite targets the closest visible unit, so no idea how Ghaz will be that target. Others are throwing up around 500-600pts of units of how they will deal with him, like he is the only unit in the army.

Screens won;t be as effective if he's in deepstrike as they will be the primary target for the Orks turn one, and they can do a decent job of that.

I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




There are other powers that cause mortal wounds you do realize? Smite is merely the most convenient

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
No, but if you have (for example) three squads of Devastators in your backlines, you can fire two-three heavies at a Gork and the last one-two at Ghaz.


Yeah and if your anti-tank is say a Repulsor or two, you gotta overcommit or risk going under (which would be much worse).


nareik wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.

You have to select all targets before rolling any dice. You can't kill something with one unit then pick a new unit to point the rest of your shots at.
I’m confused as to how you are using the word ‘unit’. You appear to be saying you need to allocate all shooting for all squads (units) before shooting.

Did you accidentally forget ‘units’ means ‘squads’ not ‘models’?

I have no idea how you got that from what I said, but no. I didn't think that every single model on each side of the table is one massive unit, or that each individual model is it's own unit, or whatever you have mistaken me for saying.
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yeah and if your anti-tank is say a Repulsor or two, you gotta overcommit or risk going under (which would be much worse).

So if your list is bad and only packs a single all or nothing source of anti-tank Ghaz is sort of okay... I'm seeing no issues here.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 04:35:59


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There are other powers that cause mortal wounds you do realize? Smite is merely the most convenient

well aware, but I simply pointed out smite as others used that as an example....you know, like specifically. If you're smiting Ghaz, then pretty much everything else has gone wrong so it would be moot point really.

It's just funny that people are throwing around, ah simple, I'd just do this and that and boom, no more Ghaz....like the ork player is simply a brainless NPC that won't be mitigating these factors.

Again, not agreeing with OP, but some of the counters have been just as ridiculous.
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Livermore, Ca

Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
Yazima wrote:
I think this thread gave me brain damage, or maybe it was the corona virus. "Ghaz OP damage" - disproved, "Ghaz OP survivability" - disproved. "I'm a competitive WoW player" - What? "40k takes no skill" - Well maybe you should learn the rules properly before you comment.

Yes this should be locked, its just a venting portal for a toxic loudmouth

Keep it open for 2 months at the very least, I need to prove OP wrong.


You don't need two months. Here lets say Ghaz vs Tau (and its battlesuit based because lolz).

1. I think we agree footslogging to the Great Unassailable Gunline is a bad strategy for Ghaz, that's 2 turns of shooting and then he gets killed in overwatch, his army gets to move really fast, so maybe thats his best use.
2. He teleports into the great unassailable gunline, way more fun. And somehow he makes that 50/50 charge. Now he gets overwatched on... and gets 4 wounds. Now he gets to fight... 6 Attacks... 4 damage each... OMG 24 wounds!! That Riptide that he charged must surely be dead? Plus we'll give Roberts84 the benefit of this being a lousy unskilled tau player.. therefore he forgot to use sheild drones to soak all the wounds, and forgot to use the Riptides ability to have a 3+ invulnerable save. That sucks right... well with a 5+ native invulnerable... big all Ghaz lands... yup 12.96 wounds. Riptide lives, but lets say with just 1 hp left. Next turn... Ghaz gets shot for 4 more, and when he charges again, he dies in overwatch, and that riptide is still alive.
3. If Ghaz fails the charge, he gets overwatched for 4, then shot for 4, then... dies in overwatch the next turn, having done exactly zero for Ghaz, zero for the army.

Now you prove the OP is wrong :-)


If you're running Farsight Battlesuits, I'd at least once try bring in a Crisis Bomb in 3-4" of Ghaz with a Homing Beacon or so, shoot him up for 4 wounds, then charge Ghaz and do 4 more Mortals with Furious Assault in the Charge Phase, and finally take him out close combat with Sworn Protectors for the final 4 wounds and be the Tau Player that get's bragging rights to having killed Ghaz in one round of close combat with your Tau.


Yeap that works!
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




 bullyboy wrote:
OK, this has been entertaining, from both sides.
I don't think Ghaz is all that competitive, simply because of his lack of cohesion with other units.
However, some people's responses of why he is bad is just as comical. I think many forget that Smite targets the closest visible unit, so no idea how Ghaz will be that target. Others are throwing up around 500-600pts of units of how they will deal with him, like he is the only unit in the army.

Screens won;t be as effective if he's in deepstrike as they will be the primary target for the Orks turn one, and they can do a decent job of that.

I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
Genuine question, how are Orks clearing screens turn 1?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Lammia wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
OK, this has been entertaining, from both sides.
I don't think Ghaz is all that competitive, simply because of his lack of cohesion with other units.
However, some people's responses of why he is bad is just as comical. I think many forget that Smite targets the closest visible unit, so no idea how Ghaz will be that target. Others are throwing up around 500-600pts of units of how they will deal with him, like he is the only unit in the army.

Screens won;t be as effective if he's in deepstrike as they will be the primary target for the Orks turn one, and they can do a decent job of that.

I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
Genuine question, how are Orks clearing screens turn 1?


well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




 bullyboy wrote:
Lammia wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
OK, this has been entertaining, from both sides.
I don't think Ghaz is all that competitive, simply because of his lack of cohesion with other units.
However, some people's responses of why he is bad is just as comical. I think many forget that Smite targets the closest visible unit, so no idea how Ghaz will be that target. Others are throwing up around 500-600pts of units of how they will deal with him, like he is the only unit in the army.

Screens won;t be as effective if he's in deepstrike as they will be the primary target for the Orks turn one, and they can do a decent job of that.

I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
Genuine question, how are Orks clearing screens turn 1?


well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.
I mean, that's cute. But I don't see how it makes enough room for Ghaz to get to anything valuable...
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 bullyboy wrote:
well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.

How are they managing this?

With shooting a maxed out 12 biker unit is dealing ~3 wounds to MEQ and most lists can deploy far enough back to make a turn 1 charge unlikely. That's frankly pathetic for a unit that costs 276 points and is expected to die on the next turn, so if your friend wants to take that plus Ghazkul and spot me a 561 point handicap I'm going to take that and run.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Canadian 5th wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.

How are they managing this?

With shooting a maxed out 12 biker unit is dealing ~3 wounds to MEQ and most lists can deploy far enough back to make a turn 1 charge unlikely. That's frankly pathetic for a unit that costs 276 points and is expected to die on the next turn, so if your friend wants to take that plus Ghazkul and spot me a 561 point handicap I'm going to take that and run.

That's not even counting the defensive bonuses that Raven Guard and Iron Hands get.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




 Canadian 5th wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.

How are they managing this?

With shooting a maxed out 12 biker unit is dealing ~3 wounds to MEQ and most lists can deploy far enough back to make a turn 1 charge unlikely. That's frankly pathetic for a unit that costs 276 points and is expected to die on the next turn, so if your friend wants to take that plus Ghazkul and spot me a 561 point handicap I'm going to take that and run.
Presumably it's about 6 bikes hitting GEQ, or something close to that
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Lammia wrote:
I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
Genuine question, how are Orks clearing screens turn 1?

Competitively, usually by jumping a unit of evil suns boyz into the screen or trying a first turn charge with storm boyz. Other options include the aforementioned bikes, bad moon shoota boyz shooting twice, various buggies and burna bommers. Depending on the game situation, lootas or flash gits might be helping out, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
With shooting a maxed out 12 biker unit is dealing ~3 wounds to MEQ and most lists can deploy far enough back to make a turn 1 charge unlikely. That's frankly pathetic for a unit that costs 276 points and is expected to die on the next turn, so if your friend wants to take that plus Ghazkul and spot me a 561 point handicap I'm going to take that and run.

Bikes have the option to advance 28" with a stratagem (3CP) so, deploying far enough back is usually not possible. But yes, the price tag on that is ridiculous.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 06:50:52


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




 Jidmah wrote:

Competitively, usually by jumping a unit of evil suns boyz into the screen or trying a first turn charge with storm boyz. Other options include the aforementioned bikes, bad moon shoota boyz shooting twice, various buggies and burna bommers. Depending on the game situation, lootas or flash gits might be helping out, too.
And that's removing everything?

   
 
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