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I have a FRIENDLY tournament coming up on Jan 9th
here is my list so far. . .
Warboss-100
PK
TL shoota
cybork
'eavy armour
Big mek-90
KFF
'eavy armour
Lootas-150
boyz-210
shootas
rokkits
boyz-230
choppas
nob w/ pk
there are 3 units of choppa boyz
please give me some feedback and keep in mind that this isn't 'ard boyz. . . . please?

Since you've stressed twice that this is a friendly tournament, it isn't about winning, and that you aren't interesting in being competitive....you have the right army for the job.

Have fun with it!

I'll be honest, I don't know why you posted a list here - the purpose of these forums are to either..
1. Make sure that your list is legal.
2. Help tweak your list to make it more competitive.

You didn't ask for #1, and you've established that you don't want to get #2. So why are you posting? My feedback is that your list is bunk, it hasn't got a theme, the important stuff is understrength and useless, your wargear choices and upgrades are atrocious, and I think you're making a real mistake.

I'm not going to get long-winded because you've expressed dis-interest in it, but I'm going to at least copy some stuff that I wrote elsewhere for you to read.

I'm going to work off of a couple of assumptions.
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1. Playing Warhammer 40k is fun.
2. Playing Warhammer 40k and winning is more fun.
3. Playing Warhammer 40k and losing is less fun.
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Human nature and natural selection demand that we continually seek to improve ourselves. Having an A type personality probably doesn't hurt this effort, but if you lose a game of 40k and don't reflect on the game with, "What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? How can I prevent this from happening again?" then I can't really talk to you.

If this thought process and those three assumptions *do* apply to you, then read on.

******
Orks are a unique codex. An ork boy is significantly cheaper than just about any other model in 40k, and is basically a platform from which many things spring (other kinds of ork variants - stormboyz, lootas, nobs...). If you read the fluff, every ork starts in the same place, and as they develop, they lean towards on klan/society, which is how they figure out what kind of ork they're going to be.

In other codexes (space marines and their variants being the most prolific), basic troops are well-rounded models. You ever play Final Fight? How about ANY kind of game with character selections? You've got the big, strong guy that's slow...the average Joe....and the weaker but very speedy character. This applies in 40k as well. Space marines are like your average, well-rounded Joe. Orks are NOT. You can't mix and match orks in any order you like to make a generalized list.

This is *not* called power building, its called understanding your codex, how your codex is designed, and using it as such. Every time someone calls "playing a theme" to be "powerbuilding" I want to stab them in the F***** eye. If you look in the Ork codex, do you see the codex writers putting in pictures for the sample armies of some Lootas backing up a squad of meganobs in a trukk, who are advancing next to some buggies and a deffkopta or two?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They even TELL you how to make your army. They tell you what the Ork klans are - Bad Moons, Kult of Speed, Deffskullz, etc.

That kind of thematic army construction is the intent of the Ork codex. That is what makes orks powerful. The ork codex is written so that you can design an army list that is absolutely ridiculously powerful, but it is NOT made up of average Joe units; everything is specialized towards a specific goal. When you build an army list, you should follow the thematic advice given to you in the Codex. PICK a theme. There's a lot of them:

Green Tide. Mechanized Assault. Mechanized Shooting. Ork Gunline (Moar Dakka), Kan-Wall. Dreadz of Fury. Kult of Speed. Outflanking Goodness. Rebel Grotz. Nob Bikers. Super Units. Orky Burnas.

All of those things have something in common - the lists were designed with a theme in mind, and have the synergy to work together towards that goal. When you start combining those themes to make a list, you're being counterintuitive to the very style that the orks were created for.

Remember this: Orks can do anything that any other army can do, and they can do it better than that army. However, orks can only do it one at a time. You can outshoot a Tau Gunline. You can out-assault a khorne army or an army of genestealers. You can put down more templates than IG....whatever your goal in mind is....orks can do it better, but it has to stick to that theme. Orks are not meant to be universal, middle-of-the-line armies.

To give another analogy...if you've ever played an MMO, there are different classes. Fighter, Tank, barbarian, mage, cleric, wizard, hunter, ranger, red mage, death knight, rogue, whatever.....its all based on the game you play. The class you pick sets you on a path for the kind of game you play, the skills you get - they are pre-defined roles.

40k armies fit into that kind of typification. Except for Orks. Orks would be the generic class. You start with a neutral character, with skillpoints to assign, and you can make orks any kind of army you want them to be. People fail with orks because they want some of everything. Instead of making them a fighter, or an archer, or a guardian...and they would be better fighters, archers and guardians than every other type...they split points between all three to make a Figardian. F.A.G for short.

Do you want to excel in something, or be a F.A.G? That's what it boils down to.

Are you a F.A.G?




*EDIT* I'm adding information for the tactics article I'm working on.

If you're running a foot-slogging list, shoota boys are your friend. Slugga boys belong inside vehicles. In fact, I think you should convert your slugga boy mobs into shoota boys. In 5th edition, the shoota boy is the most efficient point purchase across all 40k.

Think on that - for 6 points...SIX POINTS....you get an infantry model with an assault 2 STR4 gun, who is WS4, STR4, T4 on the charge. In terms of math hammer between shoota and slugga boys, it's pretty simple. Slugga boys have +1 attack in close combat, and shoota boys have +1 attack outside of close combat. Since your Orks on the assault are only I3, you're going to strike last meaning that 30 boyz are going to take some casualties before getting their attacks back.

On the flip side, shoota boys get 2 shots before assaulting, and the enemy doesn't get to shoot back first and cause casualties - putting in any kind of hurt before you assault is incredibly valuable. And since it has an 18" range, you can shoot into a unit even when you don't have range to assault this turn. My advice for green tide:

Take all your troops choices as shoota boys. Consider taking a squad of gretchin - you can spread them across your front lines to provide 4+ cover saves for your whole army. Alternatively, you can take a squad of ork boyz to do the same. If you make them 'Ard Boyz they gain considerably in staying power.

Want to get real freaky? Take a squad of 'Ard Boyz, stick Mad Dok Grotsnik with them for a 4+/4+. Spread that unit out 2+ coherence to minimize the damage that blast templates can do, and have the whole thing move+run in front of your army. Your screening unit has 4+ armor saves, 4+ feel no pain, and the rest of your army has 4+ cover saves now. If your points allow it, what really tops off the list is adding some fast attack Stormboyz. You can put them into close combat, or have them multi-assault to shake/stun some tanks/artillery, have them get in fast and tie up enemy units (hello Tau!), or if the situation doesn't call for it, you can leave them behind your screening unit and keep them in reserve to get in where you need supporting assault units at.

Dashofpepper wrote:Since you've stressed twice that this is a friendly tournament, it isn't about winning, and that you aren't interesting in being competitive....you have the right army for the job.

Have fun with it!

I'll be honest, I don't know why you posted a list here - the purpose of these forums are to either..
1. Make sure that your list is legal.
2. Help tweak your list to make it more competitive.

You didn't ask for #1, and you've established that you don't want to get #2. So why are you posting? My feedback is that your list is bunk, it hasn't got a theme, the important stuff is understrength and useless, your wargear choices and upgrades are atrocious, and I think you're making a real mistake.

thank you. . maybe, I'm sorry I posted such a horrible list. . .
I never said that I didn't want it more competitive, if you might actually read my post, All I said that it was a friendly tournament compared to 'ard boyz






Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to apologize for my sharp remark above, in turn let me more define what I would like.
How should I kit out my warboss?(unforgivably I can't put him on a bike, I can't get one between now and the tournament due to holiday travel)
Should I drop the lootas in favor of Kommandos?
I would also like to point out that I can't switch my choppas to shootas(I can for one and only one unit of choppas) due to the fact that they are AOBR orks almost all of them
Should I switch out that one unit of choppas for shootas?

*throws some alcohol and cheese at DoP*

Down boy! I know you get frustrated, I do too sometimes. And lord knows you have been typing all the advice longer then I have. But in the end that is why we join a forum, to talk, even if repeatedly about the same things. And believe me when I tell you that I say all of that with much respect, I by no means wish to offend you.

@OP
What my frazzled colleague is trying to express is that making a fun to field / fun to face off against army list DOES NOT mean it cannot be very competitive. The problem with most non ork players, is that they feel the Ork 'dex is overpowered. This IMO is NOT the case. The reason the Ork 'dex feels so powerful is that there are MANY successful builds which can be achieved from it. This runs rather contrary to most all codices that came prior to Orks. All that have come since also have this ability. Daemon's have several successful builds, as do IG, Marines, and SW. As new codices are released these complaints should diminish. Do not be afraid to build to the strengths of your 'dex. This does not mean that you need to optimize every last piece into a killing machine that will ruin your opponents day, it simply means that you work towards synergy in each unit, and in turn in the army as a whole. At the heart of this game rests sportsmanship. You can field a nasty and competitive list, and not end up with an opponent who is snarling mad at you. As long as you are polite, don't gloat, and compliment them when they pull off a good tactic, all should be well. Most arguments about "cheese" will spring from the way you handle yourself during a game. I apologize for the tangent, and am prepared for the ensuing barrage I may recieve about my views from the more agressive members of the gaming community.

Now without further ado, let me see if I can help you tune this list a little bit!


Warboss-100~ The good- you did not waste extra points on both 'bork AND 'eavy. The bad- TL shoota is rather a big waste, skorcha is better. Also an attack squig is nearly a MUST for any boss worth his salt.
PK
TL shoota
cybork
'eavy armour
Big mek-90~ The good- you kept him cheap, as he should only be a mobile bubble. The bad- 'eavy armor is really a waste as he is JUST a mobile bubble.
KFF
'eavy armour
Lootas-150~ The good- I don't much like loota's in anything but a gunline list, but they are a decent anti tank choice for us greenskins. The bad- You really need to max the squads, as they will run away easily in smaller numbers.
boyz-210~ Note this will be a general statement for all boyz! The good- None really. The bad- Boyz are your core, but you didn't really do to well with them, as your core it needs to be the strongest link in the chain. You can afford some fluffy weaker links as long as THIS is strong. Unless you are mounting them in a vehicle there is pretty much NO excuse for not maximising the squad numbers. Also you need to choose one kind or the other and run with it. Which type really depends on which army style you wish to run. Dash covered which goes with which build pretty well so I see no need to repeat.
shootas
rokkits
boyz-230
choppas
nob w/ pk
there are 3 units of choppa boyz


OK so now let me give some advice not specific to each choice you made. I highly recommend that you change all of your boyz to shoota's as you seem to wish to run a sloggin' list. Get some gretchin, or some kanz to act as a screen. Preferably the Kanz as they can be kitted to destroy vehicles and troops rather well, thanks heavily to the BS 3. Possibly consider adding Deff Kopta's with TLRL and maybe a Buzzsaw or two for popping the many transports of 5th edition. And a last note would be to avoid most gun upgrades on Orks. Paying 5-10 points for a strong, but one shot/not TL weapon is a true waste on a BS 2 model of any kind. The only real upgrade would be big shoota's on shoota boyz. RL are one shot, and if you target a tank you A) will most likely miss with 2 or all 3, and B) you will waste the other shots on the regular S4 guns.

I hope this has been of some help to you. Good luck at the tourny, and remember have fun, WH40K, at the end of the day, is a game. Games are supposed to be fun! (though that doesn't mean that kickin' someones won't up the fun factor just a bit! )

Alright so I changed my list around, I decided to go with all slugga boyz due to my lack of shootas
here it is
Warboss
PK
skorcha-shoota kombi
'eavy armour
cybork body
attack squig
Big Mek
KFF
Kommandosx10
Nob w/ PK
Boyzx30
3 Big shootas
Nob w/PK
4 units of above boyz
is it better?

OK, you are getting closer to the right track. I'm assuming you are trying to work primarily with what you have. Do me a favor huffy. Shoot me a private message with everything orky that you own, and how much (if any) that you would be able to spend to patch up some of the holes in this list. With that I will try to hit you back with some idea's. Sound good? Oh and please be specific on how many of each type of boy you have, or COULD have.

The second list looks a lot better to me. The only thing i might drop is the 'eavy armour or cybork body on your war boss, usually you dont need both of them. Good luck at your tourny