Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Does the Gauss Pylon's Phase Shift Generator (p. 164 of the Apoc book) affect itself and the Monolith?

It won't affect the pylon itself, since the pylon can't be within 12" of itself.

Also, when I asked this many months ago, people said Monoliths couldn't use it either, as "vehicles can't take invulnerable saves, only cover saves".........

insaniak wrote:It won't affect the pylon itself, since the pylon can't be within 12" of itself.

Isn't the Pylon always within 12 inches of itself?

Could this type of save affect vehicles?

RobPro wrote:Isn't the Pylon always within 12 inches of itself?

No. The Pylon is itself.

Could this type of save affect vehicles?

Nope. Saves are taken against wounds. Vehicles don't take wounds.

The only mechanism that allows vehicles to take saving throws is for cover saves specifically.

Well, I believe you start measuring to check range from the base of the model, so at 0 inches away you would find the Pylon to be within 12 inches of itself.

Doesn't the Doomsday Monolith have a 4+ invulnerable save? I don't have the reloaded book in front of me, but would its save even work?

Doesn't the Doomsday Monolith have a 4+ invulnerable save? I don't have the reloaded book in front of me, but would its save even work?

It would work but only against wounds under RaW, which obviously wouldn't be too useful to the vehicle...

Not convinced either way about whether the Pylon is covered though. The same applies to 'Nid synapse creatures but it specifically states that the model itself is also covered unlike the pylon.

RobPro wrote:Well, I believe you start measuring to check range from the base of the model, so at 0 inches away you would find the Pylon to be within 12 inches of itself.

You can't measure the distance between something and itself. That's simply not the way the language works.

Every part of the pylon is within 12 inches of every other part of it. Saying that the pylon is not within 12 inches of itself is one of the most absurd arguements I've ever heard.

I'm sure the rules intended that the pylon get a save like that provided by a KFF maybe, but the rules were poorly written. The pylon basically creates an energy shield over it and everything within 12 inches of it.

Is the pylon an AV model? If so then this arguement is moot under RaW as it can only use the 4+ invulnerable save against wounds...

augustus5 wrote:Every part of the pylon is within 12 inches of every other part of it.

Sure. But the pylon is not within 12" of itself. It physically can not be, because it is itself. Being 'within' a distance requires two objects for that distance to be measured. You can't measure the distance between one thing. That's simply not what 'between' means.


And regardless, as has been pointed out a couple of times now, it can't actually benefit from the save anyway

If the Pylon is not within 12 inches of itself, does that mean an Eldar Farseer cannot cast guide/fortune on itself or its own unit?

If the Pylon is not within 12 inches of itself, does that mean an Eldar Farseer cannot cast guide/fortune on itself or its own unit?

To be honest I'd be inclined to disagree with Insaniak as to whether a model is within 12" (or any distance) of itself.

However under RaW the Pylon can't benefit from having the invulnerable save anyway as they can only be taken against wounding hits, not penetrating or glancing hits. Hence the invulnerable save is totally useless to the Pylon itself or anything with an AV instead of Toughness and wounds...

It is physically impossible to measure the distance between one object .... as stated earlier to measure that there would need to be 2 objects.

RobPro wrote:If the Pylon is not within 12 inches of itself, does that mean an Eldar Farseer cannot cast guide/fortune on itself or its own unit?

Guide is worded differently... it allows the Farseer to cast it on any unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer.

So he wouldn't be able to cast it on himself since he can't be determined to be within 6" of himself, but he can cast it on his own unit since a model in that unit can be within 6" of him.

kill dem stunties wrote:It is physically impossible to measure the distance between one object .... as stated earlier to measure that there would need to be 2 objects.

I disagree..

In math AND in physics the distance between a point and itself is exactly 0..
You measure the distance between two objects by measuring the distance of two closest points..

All of Pylons points are exactly 0 from pylon, so the distance between it and itself is zero..

insaniak wrote:Guide is worded differently... it allows the Farseer to cast it on any unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer.

This is the wording on the Pylon as well, but it is to any unit with a model within 12".
FYI.

Macok is right the distance between anything and itself is 0 and there is nothing preventing you from measuring zero, it might be a pointless exercise but the distance between a model and itself is 0". 0" < 12".

Insaniak is right here.
Something cant be measured including the actual model.
If this was the case, then every time a weapon used a flame template it would hit its self aswell. (since its measured from the model)

May be a bad way of putting it, but its the easiest way i can think to back it up.


Also, as stated, vehicles can only gain cover, Inv saves mean nothing.

kirsanth wrote:

insaniak wrote:Guide is worded differently... it allows the Farseer to cast it on any unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer.

This is the wording on the Pylon as well, but it is to any unit with a model within 12".

Yep, had a brain fade there. The point remains, though... The Farseer can cast Guide on his own unit because another model in his unit can be within 6" of him. The difference is simply that the Pylon can't be in a unit, so has no other models to measure to.

It can't be within 12" of itself, and there are no other models in the Pylon's unit to be within 12" of it.

JD21290 wrote:Insaniak is right here.
Something cant be measured including the actual model.
If this was the case, then every time a weapon used a flame template it would hit its self aswell. (since its measured from the model)

May be a bad way of putting it, but its the easiest way i can think to back it up.

I disagree again.

You put the template so that it's end is touching the base of shooter. Every model partially or fully under the template is hit. The shooter isn't under the template so she/he isn't hit. BRB p.29.


Honestly I can't understand how can you say that it can't be measured. It can be. I just pointed it a while earlier.

Other way is just taking a tape measure and making a big 12" circle from any point of that model. All models in that circle are less then 12" from it. Is the original guy in there? It is! So he is in range and can be targeted (or is under all effects).

Two ways of doing it - practical and theoretical. It can be done. Period.

I'm deeply concerned about Insaniak's statement that the process of measurement breaks down and becomes impossible when measuring from the model to itself.

Is it because the rules don't explain how to measure from the distance from a model to itself? The rules don't explain how to measure from an objective counter to a model, either. Do two thirds of the missions now become unplayable? Or are players assumed to be able to use a ruler or measuring tape in the obvious manner to measure a distance between two objects, or between two points on the same object, and use the lowest possible value as the distance?

Macok wrote:Other way is just taking a tape measure and making a big 12" circle from any point of that model.

For what it's worth, that's not actually quite how measurement works in 40K. You don't just pick any point on the model. You measure between base edges (or the nearest part of a vehicle's hull).

Otherwise, I find that I'm wavering on it... Measuring from the edge of the Pylon, technically the pylon would be '0 inches' away. but it's a clunky use of the language to suggest that something can be considered to be within any given distance of itself. It's not an intuitive reading, and the rules of a game of toy soliders shouldn't require a background in theoretical physics in order to be playable...

A clearer rules entry would have pointed out that the rule applies to "units with models within 12" (including the Pylon itself)."

So in other situations where a rule applies to models within 'x' of a given model, I would probably allow it to apply to the model itself, but I think I would be inclined to not play it that way myself until (if) it's FAQ'd.


I say 'other situations' because it's still a moot point for the Pylon, since it can't benefit from the Phase Shifter anyway, even if you do consider it to be in range.

But the question of whether the Gauss Pylon gets the invulnerable save is relevant because of the wonderful Bjorn and its invulnerable saving throw.

If Bjorn the Fell-handed's invulnerable save works in the obvious manner, then it's pure obstinacy to suggest that an invulnerable save would work differently for any other vehicle unit.

Bjorn's saving throw is specifically worded to work against glancing and penetrating hits. This is a specific change to the normal rules for saves.

Other invulnerable saves don't work the same way. A special rule in one codex has no effect on how the general rules for saves work.

insaniak wrote:For what it's worth, that's not actually quite how measurement works in 40K. You don't just pick any point on the model. You measure between base edges (or the nearest part of a vehicle's hull).

I know, but that's irrelevant here. I took a single point because I was referring to myself - how to get a distance between object and itself. And to show that it is possible to explain hot to measure it 'physically'. Didn't make that clear, sorry.

insaniak wrote:Otherwise, I find that I'm wavering on it... Measuring from the edge of the Pylon, technically the pylon would be '0 inches' away. but it's a clunky use of the language to suggest that something can be considered to be within any given distance of itself. It's not an intuitive reading, and the rules of a game of toy soliders shouldn't require a background in theoretical physics in order to be playable...

IMHO It's much more intuitive that a model is within some distance of itself. If I can throw a rock at 12", I can hit myself with it. My arm give me some grabbing distance - I can grab myself. Think of anything you can do to object near you - you can do it to yourself also.
There may be some examples of the opposite, but I can't think of any right now. That way just makes more sense to me.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/within

number 9.

"at or to some point not beyond, as in length or distance; not farther than: within a radius of a mile."

the "at" at the start implies the central point (or pylon/farseer) is within a radius of a mile (12")

RobPro wrote:Does the Gauss Pylon's Phase Shift Generator (p. 164 of the Apoc book) affect itself and the Monolith?

Exact quote?

If its units, then maybe.
If its necron-units then rather not.

It does say "All Necron units with", I daresay most read that as being units from the Necron army lists, however.

kirsanth wrote:It does say "All Necron units with", I daresay most read that as being units from the Necron army lists, however.

Or, put some weight on the important part, all units marked as necrons in their dex.
Question solved. Only infantry/jetbikes has "necrons" put into their unit entry.

- no scarabs
- no monolith
- no pariah
- no tomb spider
...may benefit from the 5+ invul.