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This is just an idea of what I'm looking at fielding for local games. Looking for a good balance and depth to handle most situations. Please comment and critique as i have just recently started playing again and still catching up with what works best for 5th ed.

2000pts. Ultramarines
HQ:
Cato Sicarius
200

Chaplain (accompanying Ass. Squad)
Jump pack, plasma p., melta b.
135


ELITE:
Dreadnought
Extra arm.
Assault cannon/Plasma C.(depends on who I'm playing)
130


TROOPS:
Tac. Squad 1
10 marines,lascannon, flamer.
Power weapon, M bombs for Seragent
200

Tac. Squad 2
10 marines, lascannon.
Power weapon, M bombs, storm bolter for Sergeant
210

Tac. Squad 3
10 marines, missile l., flamer.
Power Fist and pistol for sergeant
195

Scout squad
5 scouts, 5 sniper rifles and camo cloaks
90


FAST ATTACK:
Assault Squad
10 marines, 1 plasma p.
Power weapon, P. pistol(2 in squad, 3 with Chap.) and M. bombs for Sergeant
240

Land Speeder
Multimelta
60

Land Speeder
Multimelta
60


HEAVY SUPPORT:
Predator
Auto Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Extra arm.
100

Vindicator
Extra arm.
130

Land Raider
Lascannons, TL. Heavy Bolters
250


TOTAL 2000 pts. spot on.


Any advice would be appreciated. The one thing I feel I would change is Sicarius, I really don't see getting his 200 points back. I could drop him for a Terminator squad at that cost as my HQ is satisfied with the chaplain.

Well, I'd drop the Assault Marines and replace them by Assault Termies
led by the Chaplain w/ terminator armor.
Moreover, I'd give the Tacticals Razorbacks or Rhinos
and drop extra armor from the HS tanks.

Sicarius isn't that good really. Doesn't add a lot to a army and the wargear he has can be taken by a normal Captain, more or less.

Take a power fist on the Chaplain. Now you can smack monstrous creatures and take out walkers and armour more effectively.

Awwwww one Dreadnought? You need another. I don't think you need extra armour too much as it will be using a plasma cannon, or assault cannon.

Power fists are better on the sgt's for reasons mentioned above. Are you combat squading?

Scouts with sniper rifles suck, they hit on 4+ and wound on 4+. Will only do to score objectives but don't expect them to hold long.

You need another assault squad for mutual support. One will just get blasted away traveling across the board. Again, power fists are better than melta bomb and power weap combo.

Predator setup is ok, doesn't need extra armour as it probably won't move too much to allow it to fire all weapons and extra armour only negates 1/6 of the damage chart.

I don't see the point in the land raider in this list. It only serves with anti tank with two lascannons, you have a few with tacticals already. I would only take this if you have terminators.

So, I would add another dreadnought, another assault squad and sort out what you're doing with the heavy support section as its easy to prioritse what to shoot. Personaly I'd add another Vindicator.

skysky wrote:

2000pts. Ultramarines
HQ:
Cato Sicarius
200

Chaplain (accompanying Ass. Squad)
Jump pack, plasma p., melta b.
135

Drop Sicarius he's just not worth it. I would recommend dropping Assault Squad all together. Get Chaplain Cassius and Assault Terminators

ELITE:
Dreadnought
Extra arm.
Assault cannon/Plasma C.(depends on who I'm playing)
130

Dread in a Drop Pod is nice to have

TROOPS:
Tac. Squad 1
10 marines,lascannon, flamer.
Power weapon, M bombs for Seragent
200

Tac. Squad 2
10 marines, lascannon.
Power weapon, M bombs, storm bolter for Sergeant
210

Tac. Squad 3
10 marines, missile l., flamer.
Power Fist and pistol for sergeant
195

Scout squad
5 scouts, 5 sniper rifles and camo cloaks
90

Tactical squads should be in Rhinos. Drop Storm Bolter. Replace Powerfist and Pistol with Powerfist and Bolter. Replace Flamers with Meltaguns.

FAST ATTACK:
Assault Squad
10 marines, 1 plasma p.
Power weapon, P. pistol(2 in squad, 3 with Chap.) and M. bombs for Sergeant
240

Land Speeder
Multimelta
60

Land Speeder
Multimelta
60

Drop Assault Squad. Land Speeders with Mulitmelta and Heavy Flamer are a nice combo adds versatility.

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Predator
Auto Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Extra arm.
100

Vindicator
Extra arm.
130

Land Raider
Lascannons, TL. Heavy Bolters
250

Drop Extra Armour on Pred and Vindicator, extra armour on Land Raiders not a bad idea tho


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a recommendation list, working in the same lines as the list you posted.

2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster

HQ: Chaplain Cassius (1#, 125 pts)
. . 1 Chaplain Cassius @ 125 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Rosarius; Bolt Pistol; Crozius Arcanum; Infernus)

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (6#, 450 pts)
. . 4 Terminator Assault Squad @ 450 pts (Lightning Claws (pair) x2; Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x2; Land Raider)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x1)
. . . . 1 Land Raider (Power of the Machine Spirit; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon x2)

Elite: Dreadnought (2#, 150 pts)
. . 1 Dreadnought @ 150 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Dreadnought CCW; Storm Bolter; Assault Cannon; Drop Pod)
. . . . 1 Drop Pod (Storm Bolter)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 235 pts)
. . 9 Tactical Squad @ 235 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Meltagun; Lascannon; Rhino)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon)
. . . . 1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 235 pts)
. . 9 Tactical Squad @ 235 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Meltagun; Lascannon; Rhino)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon)
. . . . 1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 235 pts)
. . 9 Tactical Squad @ 235 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Meltagun; Missile Launcher; Rhino)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolter; Power Fist)
. . . . 1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

Troops: Scout Squad (5#, 75 pts)
. . 4 Scout Squad @ 75 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Scout Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Sniper Rifle x4)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Scout Armour; Bolt Pistol; Sniper Rifle)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)
. . 1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Heavy Flamer x1; Multi-Melta x1)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)
. . 1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Heavy Flamer x1; Multi-Melta x1)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 70 pts)
. . 1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 70 pts (Heavy Flamer x1; Multi-Melta x1)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
. . 1 Predator @ 85 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
. . 1 Predator @ 85 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side))

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 115 pts)
. . 1 Vindicator @ 115 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Extra armour on the tanks is a little pointless. The tac squads are a bit of a mess who is Sicarius joining? On his own he'll get ID quicker than you can say "overpriced Space Marine special character", which is exactly what he is...

At 2000 points Dreads need to be in pairs or not at all.

I agree a Terminator assault squad in the Landraider (with extra armour) is better than your assault squad. Not convinced Cassius is any use 25 points and his T6 is useless against ranged attacks. Also don't take any lightening claws on the assault terminators ever, just a total waste. Thunder Hammers and storm shields all round.

Preds with heavy bolter sponsons aren't really great at anything. If you want anti infantry the whirlwind is a better bet or more marines. Take Lascannon sponsons and you have a 120 point transport killing machine. Great against those pesky Eldar flying circuses!

Not convinced that scout snipers really do anything. BS3 is really quite debilitating. Personally I tend to take scouts for assault, hit pretty much just as hard as assault troops but are a fair bit cheaper and can hold objectives .

So I will drop Sicarius, add a Terminator Assault squad and slide the chaplain over with them(w/ term. arm.). Landraider becomes dedicated transport with extra armor(opens another heavy slot).

I was thinking on keeping the Assault squad and deepstriking them after the terminators are tying up units. Maybe split the squad to seperate fire, then there's two sergeants with power weapons and melta bombs. I also plan on deepstriking my Speeders (funny look on peoples faces when they go "WTF theres a multimelta behind my tank, oh ") most likely at the same time if I can. Or I can move the Assault squad/s up the board. Try to spread and tie up the fire out before I drop everything in.

Sniper Rifles are crappy now that they dont add +2 to BS( maybe they changed that after us gitzy ork players used them to take out HiPri targets ). I should probably just drop them and use the points for another dreadnought.

Take extra armor off Predator but think i might keep it on Vin. as it does only have a 24" range and you always have to move it to get in range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To FlingItNow, I was wondering about the setup of an Assault Term. squad. Lightning Claws are cool for the re-roll on wounds but with Thunder Hammers/P. fists you don't need the re-roll. Only thing is you lose the Initiative, but thats what the Chaplain's attacks and the 3+ inv. saves are for. Am I on the same page as you?

To FlingItNow, I was wondering about the setup of an Assault Term. squad. Lightning Claws are cool for the re-roll on wounds but with Thunder Hammers/P. fists you don't need the re-roll. Only thing is you lose the Initiative, but thats what the Chaplain's attacks and the 3+ inv. saves are for. Am I on the same page as you?

Yeah essentially when you go if you have a 2+/3+ save is irrelevant and I'd rather be wounding on a 2+ than re-rolling a 4+.

The argument boils down to the 2 weapons being better against different types of opponent. Being able to instant death Nobz is ALWAYS an advantage. But the lightening claws give you more attacks so are better against horde. However with no sweeping advance and a 2+/3+ save the only thing you want your Terminators as far away from as possible is hordes as only masssed attacks are a threat to you (those Banshees making you make 4 inv. saves are not as much of a threat as the Orks making you make 25 armour saves)

So lightening claws are only good against the one thing you want to keep you Terminators away from so why take them? Against monstrous creatures, elites, IC and multiwound nastiness the thunder hammer and Storm Shield will always do better.

FlingitNow wrote:At 2000 points Dreads need to be in pairs or not at all.

Not understanding this logic, please elaborate.

I agree a Terminator assault squad in the Landraider (with extra armour) is better than your assault squad. Not convinced Cassius is any use 25 points and his T6 is useless against ranged attacks. Also don't take any lightening claws on the assault terminators ever, just a total waste. Thunder Hammers and storm shields all round.

I like the versatility of 3 TH/SS and 2 LC. The I4 power attacks thin the units down until the TH can hit and am sorry you can't beat T6 for an mere 25 points over a normal chaplain.

Preds with heavy bolter sponsons aren't really great at anything. If you want anti infantry the whirlwind is a better bet or more marines. Take Lascannon sponsons and you have a 120 point transport killing machine. Great against those pesky Eldar flying circuses!

Whirlwind over a Predator? Seriously? Again I like the versatility of the Predator great at killing light infantry. good at popping light transports, and putting wounds on high toughness models.

What flingitnow means is that one dreadnought can be singled out, taking two gives dual targets and unit redundancy.

I agree about thunder hammer and lighting claw terminators. The claw ones may get battered first, but you don't have to grin and bear taking the pain, the l.c's get in there first

In 2000 points there are just too many things that can pop your dreadnought. Taking 1 is a total waste taking 2 gives him 2 targets to worry about and you some redundancy if one gets popped turn 1...

T6 is great when you can use it. But from shooting attacks he can't, where as from CC the opposition is likely to single out the Terminators first.

What versatality do you get from the LCs? They only against Horde in comparison to Hammer Terminators. Against Eldar I4 is still last and they are the armies likely to be carrying lots of power weapons, so again the shield and hammer is a better bet. Against Tau you should nail them either way, against Necrons you should nail them either way as they've not enough attacks to hurt you. Against Nobz and omntrous creatures again TH/SS is better against other Terminators again the SS will help more than attacking at I4, whilst against Marines you'll not thin the herd as they attack at I4 so you may as well just globber them as hard as you can whilst minimising the damage done by their fist.

The LCs are only better against Hordes of Gaunts or Orks. And in either case your Terminators are stuffed anyway.

FlingitNow wrote:T6 is great when you can use it. But from shooting attacks he can't, where as from CC the opposition is likely to single out the Terminators first.

I've tie up squads with just Cassius. T6 +3(+4) save and Feel No Pain, unless your going Terminator Chaplain it's Cassius all the way

I've tie up squads with just Cassius. T6 +3(+4) save and Feel No Pain, unless your going Terminator Chaplain it's Cassius all the way

A Chaplain needs to be in an assaulting squad. That's either an Assault/Vanguard squad which Cassius is useless for as he can't take a jetpack. Or in a Terminator assault squad where you are again better off with a Terminator Chaplain.

Yes he can tie up a squad all on his own and he can even charge into the heart of a horde and expect to survive. However your Terminators shouldn't be doing either. With a toughness of 6 Cassius is realistically a model designed to be used on his own but being a Chaplain means you lose the main benefit if used this way. He's just a totally pointless Character.

FlingitNow wrote:Yes he can tie up a squad all on his own and he can even charge into the heart of a horde and expect to survive. However your Terminators shouldn't be doing either. With a toughness of 6 Cassius is realistically a model designed to be used on his own but being a Chaplain means you lose the main benefit if used this way. He's just a totally pointless Character.

Man where do you play where you can pick and choose every fight your in... must be nice to attack only the model you want and have your opponent just stand there and take it. That's awesome! Who needs flexibility in a game like that... I see your point...

But either way Good Luck, Skysky, hope we helped some

Yes I see the benefits of flexibility but I just don't see the benefit of loading up a unit to do something it will always suck at. Like giving Devastator Sergeant's powerfists, or Assault Terminators Lightening Claws. Devastators will always suck in close combat and Assault Terminators will always suck against Hordes. Tooling them up or giving them a character to help combat this won't stop them from sucking at it and will just be a waste of points. Like for instance putting Calgar in a scout sniper squad.

Yeah give some units flexibility that naturally tend towards multi-role options. Like giving Sternguard combi-meltas for AT (their main strength being anti infantry).

But I really don't see what Cassius gives to any squad you'd put him with. He'll slow down a jumppack squad whilst he's not in synergy with the targets you want your Assault Terminators going after. Either way he's either damaging the squad or being wasted. Plus put him in any squad and that T6 becomes useless from shooting attacks. Don't put him in a squad and you are wasting the litany of battle rule. Either way you are paying lots of points for an ability that will be severely hampered or entirely useless...

FlingitNow wrote: Assault Terminators will always suck against Hordes

Agreed 12 power weapon attacks at I4 that reroll to hit and wound would do nothing to a horde...

@fling-

This is the second time today your distain for the Dakka Pred has come up. Once again I'm going to disagree. I can't think of any list where I'll take a WW over the Dakka Pred. He doesn't have the bulk of armour to distract from the WW, so it's low armour will be on full display. Beyond that the Pred is far less vulnerable to weapon destroyed results and is more flexible in what it can actually kill (thanks to the AC).

I agree completely about the all'TH assault terminators though. That's the way to go, accompanied by a Terminator Chaplain. So we don't disagree about absolutely everything, just WWs and the minutae of the vehicle damage table.

Agreed 12 power weapon attacks at I4 that reroll to hit and wound would do nothing to a horde...

Yeah they will damage a horde but you can't sweeping advance and even if you kill all 12 models (highly unlikely) the Horde will still be throwing lots of attacks back at you.

The ONLY things that are a real threat to Terminators are either a decent amount of power weapon attacks or the massed attacks a horde throws out. The units that throw out lots of power weapon attacks are either MCs (which the LCs are useless against) or Eldar where striking at I4 is no better than I1. Thus against the biggest threat in terms of Power weapons you are always better off with TH/SS and in fact with a TH/SS config you should be favourite as opposed to distant 2nd with the LCs.

Whilst against massed ranks of Orks throwing out 119 attacks slicing up 10 Orks before they attack will still mean you face 79 attacks 3 of which are with a power claw. You're still in a world of trouble. Yes it is better than striking last and less often with the TH but at that point you've thrown away your terminators. Why equip them to throw them away? You see the only thing they will do better against the on the one thing you most want to keep your terminators away from most...

Just to be silly lets say that a mob of 30 orks is coming across the board at you. And lets say that being a good little space marine you happen to shoot a few of them up. I know remember it's silly. Lets say that you kill a few maybe 8 during shooting (so 22 ork left for you playing at home) Then you run your Land Raider up and disembark. Cassius being so kool unloads his master-craft flamer. And For the Emperor! he only gets 4 more kills (18 orks left). SO you, against everything Fling has said, do the ridiculous and charge. At I4 with 12 attacks/re-roll to hit/re-roll to wound you kill 6 more (6.75 avg kills leaving 12 ork). So now you got, Oh I forget they are Slugga boyz and Nob with Kan Opener, they all get into combat and got 33 attacks coming at you that kills one Lightning Claw Terminator (0.91 Avg) and the Nob gets really lucky and kills one TH/SS cause you wanted that +3 Inv save (0.41 Avg) then your Thunder Hammers get to swing getting 9 attacks since they swing the same time at the Nob and you get 5 more kills (5.6 avg) leaving 7 Orks standing there

So silly enuff the combat resolves at 11 kills to 2. So the Dastardly Orks have lost combat by 9. With only 7 left they are they are not fearless anymore and have to roll snake eyes to not run. Just for giiggles lets say they run. Now DAMN IT as the BRB states you can't sweeping advance. Curse this Dreadnought Tactical Armour! But what's that the Ork can't regroup because that are half strength! Praise the Emperor

And just for a comparison, your right Fling, Terminator Chaplain gets an avg of 1.12 kills and TH/SS terminators get 9.34 kills. Orks are still fearless so your stuck in combat.

Chill, Gen. Chaos. Of course, you ARE right, but the sarcasm is not needed.

Cold, hard logic, and then a "Nevermind all of that, you ARE, of course, right" is always fun.

'Course, TH/SS CAN destroy tanks, MC's, etc, which LC termis can't.

Lighting claw terminators are best for hordes, they get 4 attacks on the charge. They cannot sweeping advance, but nor can other terminators so doesn't matter. If your fighting hordes then L.C's are better over hammers because you get more attacks and also don't go last in combat so you don't take the high amount of attacks first.

Personaly I go a mix, 2 l.c's and 2 hammers in my assault terminator unit. Works a treat.

If the ork player let's you get the charge when you are rolling up in a land raider, they don't deserve to win. But saying your scenario plays out. It's now the ork players turn. Get ready to suck some dakka and then get charged by a whole other squad that will put a real hurtin' on you. Then again I don't charge termi's myself, I just lay 15 flamer templates over them from a battle wagon and watch then try to make 30-45 saves

Aztralwolf wrote:If the ork player let's you get the charge when you are rolling up in a land raider, they don't deserve to win.

Sure, because when the Orks are on foot they can do something about that .... how? They are going to get charged out of the LR. That said, I think most people would agree that charging full Ork mobs with Termies is a foolish idea for the most part.

The value of the TH/SS is the ability to go toe to toe with things like Hive Tyrants and Avatars and lay the smack down, and beyond that to lay down a nice base of guaranteed combat Res. LCs are nice, but the TH set up really suits the role of the Assault Terminators better IMO. With a Chaplain in the unit the TH guys can even charge into a Nob Biker squad and expect to do at least alright, but not so much the LC guys. At Init 4 the LC aren't normally clearing away attacks that are a huge problem for the TH/SS guys anyway. The problem attacks are often also at Init 1 from hidden fists (which the LCs are unlikely to get to), from high Init beasties (that the LC won't kill), or volume attacks, which are often simultaneous at Init 4. I'd rather go in with 2+/3++ and weather the storm. Obviously you need to be choosing the right targets to assault no matter what they're armed with, but I think there's more value to be had with the all TH load out.

Everyone has a slightly different idea of what works for them though, since the common armies and average opponent skill change a lot from group to group.

@ fenris77- well they should be behind their kan wall blocking the LR lol. No no, I do get your point. But either way in most horde lists that lone squad that gets chewed up by those termi's is just the tip of the iceburg. Making them run on your charge is the best I could hope for. The next squad that charges in will do so at a higher str, causing more saves and will most likely wipe those termi's. and I will have lost about as many points as the marine player did for those termi's

Aztralwolf wrote:If the ork player let's you get the charge when you are rolling up in a land raider, they don't deserve to win. But saying your scenario plays out. It's now the ork players turn. Get ready to suck some dakka and then get charged by a whole other squad that will put a real hurtin' on you. Then again I don't charge termi's myself, I just lay 15 flamer templates over them from a battle wagon and watch then try to make 30-45 saves

Agreed if the Ork get the charge they will hurt the Terminators, that wasn't the point, it was just to show that by running two LC and three Hammers is a good idea for some versatility


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I forgot to say that with Cassius you put one of the PowerKlaw attacks on him since his 6 toughness would not get him insta-killed

I definatley see the utility aspect of the TH/SS combo. I can wound anything in the game and instakill most. With LC good luck after toughness five even with re-rolls. with the TH i can destroy everything but Landraiders and monoliths (which they wont bother with). With LC again good luck with just armor 10 as the termies are still S4.

Yeah LC are great against bunches of enemies but that isn't ideally where you put them. As an ork player i loved eating up expensive units like that with a unit of boys. So for utility and survivability I'm leaning towards the TH/SS but if i need I can throw in 1 or 2 LC if I know what I'm up against.

As far as the scouts I dropped them to basic scouts(take another troop slot, that I actually have models for) and dropped a few assault marines. I can drop three marines (leaving 7) and take the Whrilwind sitting on my desk. OR I can drop another 2 marines and take another Dred. Long range ordnance or mobile killing machine?

FlingitNow wrote:

I've tie up squads with just Cassius. T6 +3(+4) save and Feel No Pain, unless your going Terminator Chaplain it's Cassius all the way

A Chaplain needs to be in an assaulting squad. That's either an Assault/Vanguard squad which Cassius is useless for as he can't take a jetpack. Or in a Terminator assault squad where you are again better off with a Terminator Chaplain.

Yes he can tie up a squad all on his own and he can even charge into the heart of a horde and expect to survive. However your Terminators shouldn't be doing either. With a toughness of 6 Cassius is realistically a model designed to be used on his own but being a Chaplain means you lose the main benefit if used this way. He's just a totally pointless Character.

He is immune to instant death, outside of a force weapon.

How many characters in the space marine codex can say that?

And that's 'pointless'? For a mere 25pts, you get t6 over t4, master-crafted combi-flamer with hellfire rounds AND fnp.

Unless he is in combat with something that has hammers or fists, he is god awful good.

He is better than a terminator chaplain and COSTS LESS.

Just the mere fact you think that assault marines and vanguard are 'assault troops' speaks volumes...

Er, Weasel, not to pop your bubble but the key is in the title for assault squads lol. Though just doesn't mean they're any good at it! :p

mercer wrote:Er, Weasel, not to pop your bubble but the key is in the title for assault squads lol. Though just doesn't mean they're any good at it! :p

That was my point.

Cassius definitely seems better than a Terminator Chaplain to me.

imweasel wrote:

mercer wrote:Er, Weasel, not to pop your bubble but the key is in the title for assault squads lol. Though just doesn't mean they're any good at it! :p

That was my point.

Aye mate. Just having a laugh . Terminators are the way forward, throw Cassius in with them. TBH, I've been thinking of using Cassius after reading some of the stuff you posted here actually.