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so with the extra points should i use a whirlwind or get another dred? the Whirlwind used to be fun when you could kinda dictate movement by laying mines, but now thats gone. yeah they are ordinance but they just dont seem to pack a descent punch. S5 AP4, I might as well sling a bag of krak grenades at the enemy for the same effect lol. they just never seem to do damage. Drednought with another assault cannon might be the way to go, or should i get another pred?

I'd go for a Dread with assault cannon and heavy flamer.
In opposition to a 'real' tank it can be a serious threat in cc.

I'd like to point out I never said Vanguard or assault marines are any good. But they are assault units no matter how you look at it.

I'm with Fenriss-77 on the TH/SS combo. Yes the lightening claws are better against hordes but I wouldn't want my terminators taking on hordes anyway. Which is the point if you want to take on hordes take Sternguard or one of the many other units Spacemarines have that can deal with hordes effectively, rather than taking Terminators and gearing them to do OK against hordes rather than having them do excellently against what you want them to be fighting (MCs, IC, Elites etc).

Having said that I had forgotten about fnp on Cassius so atleast he's just as durable from small arms fire as the Terminators. You're starting to win me over with using him in a Terminator squad

FlingitNow wrote:I'd like to point out I never said Vanguard or assault marines are any good. But they are assault units no matter how you look at it.

I'm with Fenriss-77 on the TH/SS combo. Yes the lightening claws are better against hordes but I wouldn't want my terminators taking on hordes anyway. Which is the point if you want to take on hordes take Sternguard or one of the many other units Spacemarines have that can deal with hordes effectively, rather than taking Terminators and gearing them to do OK against hordes rather than having them do excellently against what you want them to be fighting (MCs, IC, Elites etc).

Having said that I had forgotten about fnp on Cassius so atleast he's just as durable from small arms fire as the Terminators. You're starting to win me over with using him in a Terminator squad

As you pointed out, cassius does 'lose' his t6 when grouped with other t4 models, but the fnp makes up for that quite a bit.

I don't think it hurts taking a pair of lc's either, if you are not playing vulkan. It also allows you to mess with wound allocation a bit.

5 th/ss termies, sarge w/th/ss and 1 pair of lc's along with cassius in a lrc makes one hard hitting unit that doesn't mind walking into just about anything. Of course it shouldn't for that point cost.

As far as the assault unit thing goes, if they are not very good at assaulting, then they are not assault units, regardless of name or use in 'fluff'.

As far as the assault unit thing goes, if they are not very good at assaulting, then they are not assault units, regardless of name or use in 'fluff'.

So what are assault marines if not assault troops? A shooty unit? What they are best at is assault that makes them an assauklt unit. Just because they also suck in assault doesn't mean they aren't an assault unit they just aren't a very good one.

I don't think it hurts taking a pair of lc's either, if you are not playing vulkan. It also allows you to mess with wound allocation a bit.

How do you mess about with wound allocation as Terminators only have 1 wound? Yes you could pump 2 AP2/1 shots or rending/power hits onto the LC to concentrate the invulnerable saves but you are not likely to be any better off than just having one more 3+ save available...

The hurt in taking the LC is that the Thunder hammer is better for what the unit is going to be going after so he'll be less effective than the rest of the unit. So why take him? Gives you little to no benefit but weakens your squad at dealing with the things they most want to fight...

There is a reason that for EVERY single other model in the list taking TH/SS is far more expensive than taking 2 LCs, it is just a better option. Particularly for Terminators as it has synergy with their ideal targets unlike LCs.

FlingitNow wrote:So what are assault marines if not assault troops? A shooty unit? What they are best at is assault that makes them an assauklt unit. Just because they also suck in assault doesn't mean they aren't an assault unit they just aren't a very good one.

They are a pile of poo. They are not an assault unit. Unless you find yourself in a poo flinging fight with monkey's in a zoo.

FlingitNow wrote:How do you mess about with wound allocation as Terminators only have 1 wound? Yes you could pump 2 AP2/1 shots or rending/power hits onto the LC to concentrate the invulnerable saves but you are not likely to be any better off than just having one more 3+ save available...

Because, you might not find yourself always in combat with another assault unit or th/ss unit. You can dump those wounds on the lc model after wounds are allocated. It's also partly my fault as I said a pair of lc's, as in one terminator with one pair of lc's.

FlingitNow wrote:The hurt in taking the LC is that the Thunder hammer is better for what the unit is going to be going after so he'll be less effective than the rest of the unit. So why take him? Gives you little to no benefit but weakens your squad at dealing with the things they most want to fight...

There is a reason that for EVERY single other model in the list taking TH/SS is far more expensive than taking 2 LCs, it is just a better option. Particularly for Terminators as it has synergy with their ideal targets unlike LCs.

Like I should have been more clear about, you take one model with 1 pair of lc's. 5 th/ss termies is pretty solid, one more is not going to make a huge difference unless the unit is fighting t5+. I also would only take th/ss in a vulkan list.

Here is a sample non-vulkan terminator unit:

4 th/ss
1 lc
1 sarge w/th/ss

I have to take more than 2 wounds before I start putting wounds on mass like models. I have to take more than 8 wounds before I start taking mass wounds on mass like models.

As a side note, I usually took this squad with cassius. This allowed me 8 power weapon attacks at init, re-rolling misses and re-rolling wounds on the lc's. I didn't mind hitting a large blob on the assault.

They are a pile of poo. They are not an assault unit.

I'll take this as an admission that they are an assault unit. Thanks you admitting I was right all along .

Like I should have been more clear about, you take one model with 1 pair of lc's. 5 th/ss termies is pretty solid, one more is not going to make a huge difference unless the unit is fighting t5+. I also would only take th/ss in a vulkan list.

Here is a sample non-vulkan terminator unit:

4 th/ss
1 lc
1 sarge w/th/ss

I have to take more than 2 wounds before I start putting wounds on mass like models. I have to take more than 8 wounds before I start taking mass wounds on mass like models.

As a side note, I usually took this squad with cassius. This allowed me 8 power weapon attacks at init, re-rolling misses and re-rolling wounds on the lc's. I didn't mind hitting a large blob on the assault.

Fair enough I did realise that you were talking about 1 model with 2 LCs on it. As I pointed out to give a Vanguard 2 LCs is 30 points to give him a TH/SS it is 45. Same with a Cap/Master or 15 to 30 in Termie armour. The TH/SS combo is always between 50% and 100% more points than 2 Lightening Claws. There is a reason for that, I'd still don't see the point of gearing Terminators to assault hordes. You're going to have to kill everyone and they are the only real threat to you due to the number of attacks they throw out. Against a non-fearless horde you are going to get bogged down and they can run away and then shoot you and leave you exposed to a counter charge.

You hit a unit of 6 Nob bikers and you'll wish all your Termmies were TH/SS...

Weasel it's pointless trying to explain something to FlingPooNow in every one of his games he know exactly who he's gunna play and they allow him to attack whatever he wants and they only attack him if he allows it. It's not the same game the rest of the world plays.

Weasel it's pointless trying to explain something to FlingPooNow in every one of his games he know exactly who he's gunna play and they allow him to attack whatever he wants and they only attack him if he allows it.

When did I ever say this? You made this up. So I take you you believe that giving Devastator sergeants power fists is a good idea encase they get into close combat? I also assume that you believe all 4 heavy weapons weapons should be different to ensure all your bases are covered?

I'm all for units that can multi-function being geared towards being multi-functional if it does not distract from their main fuunction. Assault Terminators are not multi functional they are there to fight large nast things or small elite units. They are at their best against high powered low numbered opponents. Why try to gear them to take on hordes? They'll never be point effective in that roll so why bother?

Why take every possible option on every unit just encase? Your army will be too small and not very good at anything. Why gear heavy weapon squad towards assault? By your logic this makes sense as your enemy may well assault them. Why gear Assault Terminators towards fighting hordes? That is not what they are good at so why do it?

FlingitNow wrote:[Why take every possible option on every unit just encase? Your army will be too small and not very good at anything. Why gear heavy weapon squad towards assault? By your logic this makes sense as your enemy may well assault them. Why gear Assault Terminators towards fighting hordes? That is not what they are good at so why do it?

I know this is pointless to continue... but what do you do when you actually fight a horde army with your terminators. leave them in the LR cause there's nothing to attack?

but what do you do when you actually fight a horde army with your terminators. leave them in the LR cause there's nothing to attack?

Horde Orks generally have a unit of Nobz or several Killer Kans for the Terminators to get stuck into. Horde 'Nids generally still have a few MCs. If not then yes i'd use them as a counter charge unit against what ever was left from my shooting and anti-horde unit or as a shield to protect my anti-horde units. Or taking valuable targets like Zoanthropes etc in Hordes or even as a speed bump if necessary. I generally run a lot of heavy flamers and other anti-horde units (i.e. Sternguard) so against a total horde army I'm happy to not have to use the Terminators or to throw them away as a shield/suicide unit.

@Gen: I wouldn't get angry about it, you both just approach a game in different ways, Fling seems to like to define specific roles for the troops in his army with a farily firm plan in mind with a little flexibility. Gen seems to like to bring lists that can adapt on the fly.

Neither of you are wrong you just do what you do differently, I'd say you both have good points and I'm sure your tactics work for you as you probably both play differently.

Personally I like to play my marines like Orks, I just throw them at the opposition and see what happens. I'm not too successfull but games against me are not short of action

FlingitNow wrote:There is a reason for that, I'd still don't see the point of gearing Terminators to assault hordes. You're going to have to kill everyone and they are the only real threat to you due to the number of attacks they throw out. Against a non-fearless horde you are going to get bogged down and they can run away and then shoot you and leave you exposed to a counter charge.

How in the world do you think putting 1 pair of lc's in an assault terminator squad is 'gearing up' to fight a horde/blob? Talk about a stretch of the facts.

FlingitNow wrote:You hit a unit of 6 Nob bikers and you'll wish all your Termmies were TH/SS...

6 nob bikers will not stand up to that unit in the slightest. One th/ss termie won't make any difference.