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Hello again, Dakka-heads.

Thanks in advance for checking out the following list. I know it probably gets annoying after a while, but it would save me $$$ and time if at least my army list was solid.

anyway, heres the rundown of why I'm making an IG army--I drew it out of a hat. I play with a few friends and we all decided that, to keep things interesting, we would all build a 'Good' and 'Bad' army. I already had chaos, and I ended up drawing IG. Problem is, I never played IG before in my life. EVER.

So after picking up the codex i decided to slap together a 1750 point list and see what you all think of it. Ya ready?

HQ:
Company command squad w/ Hweapons team (HB), Master of Ordnance.

Troops:
Infantry Platoon:
Platoon Command Squad w/ Vox, Hflamer and flamer. Plt Cmdr has stock gear.

Infantry Squad w/ Vox, Flamer
Sgt w/ PW
Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer

Infantry Squad w/ Vox, GL
Sgt w/ PW
Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer

HWeapons Squad-3 Autocannons
Hweapons Squad- 3 Hbolters

Vet squad w/ Grenadiers Doctrine, Vox, 5 Shottys, Flamer and HFlamer
Sgt w/ shotty and PFist
Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer

Vet Squad (Same as above) except in:
Valkyrie w/ Lascannon, Hellstrike Missles and Hbloter Sponsons

Elite:
Ratlings (6)

Fast:
Armored Sentinels (2) w/ Lascannon and HK missle.

Heavy:
Leman Russ Battle Tank w/ Lascannon and HB sponsons

Leman Russ Punisher w/ 2 HB sponsons

Basilisk

That about does it. Any feedback would be great. Thanks again!

Dead

HQ:

Heavy Bolters are only better than autocannons against hordes of T3 and less, and autocannons are only better than lascannons against hordes, AV10, and AV11.

If you want a stationary command squad, take:

CCS + Lascannon + Vox + MoO + Chimera ML/HB: 160
Throw in a regimental standard as well if you're going infantry-heavy.

If you want a mobile one, take either 4 meltaguns or 4 plasmaguns and a chimera.

Troops:

Your PCS has a vox and flamers. These aren't marines, they won't live long enough to foot to even get a flamer shot off. If you're taking a mobile CCS, then the PCS can be: PCS + Vox + 3 Grenade Launchers: 50

If you have a stationary CCS, then take: PCS + 4 flamers + Chimera (ML/HF): 105

Wait, so you want to mechanize your infantry? Then drop voxes altogether. Don't take power weapons - once a squad of 10 guardsmen leaves the chimera, they're dead.

H weapons squads are meh. Lascannons are better to take with Vendettas, and Autocannons from Hydras.

Veterans:
Veterans + 3 meltaguns. Simple, cheap, effective. Don't try to be effective with close combat with Guard - you're just pouring your points down a well. We're best at shooting, so only buy shooty things. Every point spent in a Guard army that doesn't let you shoot better is a wasted point.

Elites:
Ratlings are kind of meh. For about the same points, maybe try Marbo? He comes in anywhere on the board and throws a super-accurate BS5 demo charge.

Fast:
Too expensive. Armored sentinels have one use, and one use only: tying up weak shooty squads with their AV12. If you want dakka out of your sentinels, and they're not a bad unit, take scout sentinels with autocannons. Outflanking S7 shots can be devastating against side armor.

Heavy:

First Russ: meh
HB sponsons and lascannons are both overpriced. Give this plasma sponsons and you're good.

Second Russ:
Punishers are terrible. Heavy 20 might sound good, but, let's say you're shooting some Orks:
20 shots
10 hits
6.67 wounds

Yeah, no. You can get much more effective shooting for 190 points.

Basilisk:
These are just okay. If you want artillery, take a manticore.




If you're new to IG, I highly recommend that you take a look at this document: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212569

Write back with another list once you're done, hopefully you'll be able to see some improvement yourself.

Makr, you really cannot just say something is terrible. Aside from the punisher, which really is terrible, you forgot to mention that it has AP-, so even ork boyz will get a save xD.

You can make things work, 'lisks are very good, devestating with the earthshaker cannon. ATM, the Manticore has a FW model, which is $60, the price is so low because it is a TERRIBLE model, just look at it. I am a huge fan of the manticore, I hope we get a kit for it in march with the coming of Battle Missions.

HWS are very good if they are in cover, 4+ cover save, 3 lascannons can wreak havoc, especially if you have your guardsman nearby to protect them.

HB sponsons are overpriced, really, though I disagree on the Lascannon, its up to you if you like it, I prefer a heavy-flamer on everything but a vanilla russ, which I keep the hull-hb sponsons on, and no sponsons, I like to keep it long-range.

I'm not a fan of armoured sentinals unless you put a plasma cannon on 'em, scout sentinals are cheaper and better overall.

Not a fan of ratlings.

Not a fan of Flamers on guard.

I stopped reading the list once I saw the MoO. I recommend you take it out. Here is why:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/263006.page#1082426

Take him out and then I'll try to do the rest of the list

A lot of what Makr says is completely sound. I think there are definitely some things that could be changed in your list:

Punisher is just a terrible tank. Take another variant from the following list: MBT, demolisher, executioner.

LRBT shouldn't be busting tanks, and it shouldn't usually be shooting light infantry - give it plasma sponsons instead of the current upgrades.

Ratlings and armoured sentinels both seem quite weak to me. If you keep them, at least make the armoured sentinels scouts instead - they really benefit from shooting side armour.

Vets need 3 special weapons, I would take meltaguns since you have none in the army so far. No grenadiers, no powerfist, no vox. They just need to drive forward, hop out, kill a powerful tank to justify their existence, that's it.

Platoons don't work that well mechanised, IMO. If you gave the PCS 2 flamers and 1 HF, it could ride in a chimera. Scrap the other chimera and get a 3rd infantry squad. All infantry should have a HW and special weapon, no PW. Autocannons are hands down superior to HBs, as stated already.

MoO is no good, as Lt Lathrop has pointed out. Lose him, maybe take a regimental standard instead?

HQ:
I agree that the MoO is not a great choice put the thing is if you want to compete with most other army's you need to be mobile. Gun line guard can work but its a lot harder and stuff like mec orks will eat you up. I would use the command squad as an extra vet squad slap some flamers or melts in it and put them in a chimera or even a valk.

Troops:
I would drop the platoon. As i said before gun line guard is not the best and almost anything will kill them in assault. So look at vets in chimeras I like to run meltas to go pop tanks and they work well on say termies as well or go flamers/ HF, I would avoid plasma, guard die easily enough without you taking a 1 in 6 chance they die every time they fire. Demo charges are nice but tend to scatter back into your unit or off target with a BS of 3. The big thing is stay mobile and use chimeras as a shell to keep them safe.

Elite:
Drop the ratlings. Snipers are not that great as most things are in tanks or fearless anyway. I would take marbo. For 65 points he can drop a demo charge anywhere and at BS 5 it should not scatter far. Also he is nice because your apponit will stop to deal with him or he will shoot at them till they do.

Fast:
Drop the sentinels they are one of the least points efficient units in the game. I would take hell hounds or valks. The key is if you take a valk take more than one or else it is nothing but a big target that gets blown out of the sky like turn 2. I would also look at vendettas 3 twin=linked lascannons is the scourge of all tanks.

Heavy:
A battle tank is not bad but look at demolishers. 24'' range is short but they are so nasty and can kill anything even tanks. Punishers are not so great the thing about them is you should have enough anti infantry without them. I would also not touch a basilisk with a 10 foot stick. A good player will be within your 24'' minimal range turn 1 or 2 look at hydras they are sick and will mess up eldar really fast.

I hope this helped.

Wow...thats a lot to digest! Looks like I came to the right place!

Thanks all for your replies. I just got in from work (3rd shift). So sleepy time then I'll try and draw up a new list. Hopefully the second one won't be so horrendous.

Thanks again.

Dead


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, then, Lords and Ladies, after a good 7 hours or so, heres the 'updated' list. I have some reservations about this new one, but I'll explain those at the end.

HQ:
CCS w/ Regimental Standard in Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer

Troops:
Vet Squad w/ 3 meltas, 6 shottys in Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer (x2)

Infantry Squad w/ GL (x3), stock PCS, Heavy weapons team (3 Autocannons)

Infantry Squad w/ GL (x3), stock PCS, Heavy Weapons team (3 Autocannons)

Fast:
2 Vendetta Gunships

Heavy:
LRBT w/ Lascannon and Plasma Cannon Sponsons

Demolisher w/ Lacannon and Plasma cannon sponsons

Hydra Flak Tank.

So thats the new list. My reservations are as follows:

1) Should i bother putting the CCS in a Chimera?
2) Does it make sense to have a Heavy weapons team attached to a platoon? I plan on combining the 3 squads+ HWT into one big objective-holding squad. Good/bad idea?
3)I think i have tank-busting covered, but I feel im lacking in the crowd control department. Sure, the demolisher and LRBT will do fine against crowds, but in case they go south, i was thinking of dropping the HWT and adding another Hydra Flak tank.
4) At the current list, im 1730 of 1750 points. Anything i should splurge on?

Again, thanks in advance for all your help. I look forward to your feed back.

Dead

DeadKilly0311 wrote:HQ:
CCS w/ Regimental Standard in Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer

Pretty standard, kinda boring. Could probably add a heavy weapon to this squad and fire it from the Chimera. BS4 is better than what you have down below in the platoon.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:Troops:
Vet Squad w/ 3 meltas, 6 shottys in Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer (x2)

I am not a fan of melta with infantry. Our infantry is simply too puny to function at 6". Inside a Chimera you might to a little better... but the squads are basically 155pt suicide squads in aluminum cans. If they have any vehicles worth protecting they are going to split those Chimera and then eat the guard inside. In the IG army, we have too many options to break tanks from 4+ feet away. Vendetta is a really good example... and it's a transport... and its a fast skimmer... and its only 130pts.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:Infantry Squad w/ GL (x3), stock PCS, Heavy weapons team (3 Autocannons)

Infantry Squad w/ GL (x3), stock PCS, Heavy Weapons team (3 Autocannons)

Gun line, cool. I would probably split yourself up a little more. Both ACs and HBs have the same AP. Which since you have 2 melta squads and 2 Vendettas I really don't think you need anymore anti vehicle. What you are looking for now is more anti-horde, and anti-MEQ. So switch to HBs as you get more shots, or Mortars which you can hide behind buildings, as you don't need LoS... and can pin.

Also, you could save yourself some points, and merge the two platoons into one HUGE platoon. You would only lose 1 infantry squad, and you wouldn't have to bring extra PCS. The 85pts could be used to buy Creed, which would give you 4 orders, more range, and Tactical Genius. (Unless you are putting the bare PCS squads into the Vendettas so they will be scoring units... in which case keep it the way it is.)

DeadKilly0311 wrote:Fast:
2 Vendetta Gunships

Love Valks/Vends. Who are you putting in them?

DeadKilly0311 wrote:Heavy:
LRBT w/ Lascannon and Plasma Cannon Sponsons

Plasma is a waste of points, as the Russ can't move and fire both of them. 40pts for a single plasma small blast per turn? You can spend it better somewhere else.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:Demolisher w/ Lacannon and Plasma cannon sponsons

Same thing as the LRBT, drop the plasma. Especially since with a 2' range, you will definately be moving all the time... you won't be able to fire the plasma. I would also recommend, drop the tank. For the points you are spending here, there are better anti-MEQ options, (or anti TEQ) and you already have too much anti vehicle. Buy another tank... maybe another Hydra, and use the rest of the points somewhere else.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:Hydra Flak Tank.

Great buy. Huge range, re-rolls... mess up skimmers and turboboosters... only 75pts.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:1) Should i bother putting the CCS in a Chimera?

I would probably leave the Chimera out, since you have a gun line. Just keep the CCS in cover, and knock out those orders.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:2) Does it make sense to have a Heavy weapons team attached to a platoon? I plan on combining the 3 squads+ HWT into one big objective-holding squad. Good/bad idea?

Depends. Some people like having heavy weapons teams in squads so you have a HWT with 12 wounds. Others like to put them into HWS so they can use the infantry for other things... like dying. HWS are cheaper if all you want is the heavy weapons. I prefer HWS personally. I put them at the top of buildings or somewhere behind my army. Somewhere safe. I give them BiD orders, and let them fire away. I find that if you leave them in squads they end up having to move around, not being able to shoot... or dying in CC. It is really personal preference. I would definately NOT put all your heavy weapons in a giant squad of 50 guys... because if any part of that squad enters into CC or moves one model 1" then all of your heavy weapons can't fire.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:3)I think i have tank-busting covered, but I feel im lacking in the crowd control department. Sure, the demolisher and LRBT will do fine against crowds, but in case they go south, i was thinking of dropping the HWT and adding another Hydra Flak tank.

I feel like you could drop the plasma on the LRBT and drop the Demolisher... and add a Hydra and a Hellhound and be all set. Dropping a HWS is not gonna help your anti-horde. If anything you need more ACs, HBs or Mortars to reinforce your gun line. A footslogging army (Need more shots) and/or a mechanized horde (need more autocannon shots) would mess you up as your list is now.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:4) At the current list, im 1730 of 1750 points. Anything i should splurge on?

If you revamp your list here and there, and try to cut some corners... like drop the plasma, drop the demolisher, combine the two platoons... you would have enough points for 2 or 3 other vehicles. If you are looking for anti horde, anti mech horde... i would recommend Hellhounds. Hydra, or Valkyries w/MRP. I also think you have a lot of infantry in this list, and Creed would be a good asset. If you work your list right, his 2 foot order range might actually be able to throw a BiD order at your Melta Vets when they reach their targets. Also his 4 orders would be able to service your whole army allowing you to put the PCSs into the Vendettas and zip around the map blowing up vehicles and securing points.

K, so Im dropping the chimera from the CCS. They're now hoofing it, sucks to be them.

The vet squads, i feel, can double as objective grabbers and also tank busters if needs be.

I like the switching to the HBs, but im considering the Mortars as well. I may just keep the two HWS back behind the tanks and pepper the enemy with mortar fire. What do you think?

I don't really want to merge the two platoons, as they're main objective is to contest/hold objectives. Have two squads of 30+ allows me to maneuver troops instead of keeping them bunched all in one basket, so to speak.

I like the idea of putting the PCS in the Vendettas. Anything I should kit them with or should I leave them as is?

I'm getting mixed signals about the plasma sponsons. You say the Russ can't move and fire both of them, but as long as I keep it at combat speed the Lumbering Behemoth special rule says I can fire everything I have. At S7 AP2 I feel they would be good against encroaching melta-carrying elites (Termies, for insatnce) and/or AV12 or less transports or tanks. I wouldn't be against switching them to the Multi-melta, however.

The Demolisher im having a hard time letting go of. I have a Chaos Demolisher in my other army and that thing has done wonders for me (and its AV is less than the Lemans). I suppose I could ditch it for another Vendetta or something, but deep down I feel im cheating myself not bringing a S10 AP1 weapon to the foray. Any suggestions?

Thanks, Lt Lathrop, for your input. It has been invaluable. Anything else would be well appreciated.

Dead

DeadKilly0311 wrote:The vet squads, i feel, can double as objective grabbers and also tank busters if needs be.

I just like to use my vets differently than tankbusting suicide squads. I like to put a squad of vets down with an AC, 3GLs and Forward Sentries. Then I put that squad in cover, holding an objective. They get +1 cover from the forward sentries, and have enough range to be able to do damage even though they aren't on the front of the army. So long as my front lines (which are made up by a platoon and a ton of tanks) doesn't break... I don't worry about leaving vets behind to hold objectives.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:I like the switching to the HBs, but im considering the Mortars as well. I may just keep the two HWS back behind the tanks and pepper the enemy with mortar fire. What do you think?

Mortar fire is low strength and low AP. HB has AP4, so against a lot of things that AP is gonna make a difference. The advantages for the Mortars are simple: better range, can fire barrage (doesn't need LoS and can pin and bypass some cover) and is half the price of a HB. You are going to find mortars do ok damage, but are going to be useless against Space Marines, or anyone else who has a fearless army. Mortars are gonna be great for against hordes, or any armies that aren't fearless. Orks (after you reduce their squad size), Nids, Guard, Eldar, Tau etc. HBs are gonna be useless against Space Marines as well, so it really isn't too big of a deal. Basically you just have to look at the AP. One has AP4, the other AP6, range, barrage, cheaper.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:I don't really want to merge the two platoons, as they're main objective is to contest/hold objectives. Have two squads of 30+ allows me to maneuver troops instead of keeping them bunched all in one basket, so to speak.

Well you could do one platoon with a squad of 30 and one of 20. The point was you could get rid of the second platoon, and you would save the 30pts on the PCS, and 50pts for the squad you would have to lose. It was up to you, but with the 80 here, and the 80 off the plasma sponsons and another 55 from the CCS's chimera you would have enough to take another tank and a hydra.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:I like the idea of putting the PCS in the Vendettas. Anything I should kit them with or should I leave them as is?

No fire points from a Vendetta, so anything you give the PCS would require them to get out of the Vendetta to use it. Basically you are using the 30pt PCS as an upgrade for the Vendetta to make it into a scoring unit that you can move 24". If you can keep them alive the whole game, this will be invaluable... and you shouldn't ever have to worry about the PCS needing any gear. I would leave them bare.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:I'm getting mixed signals about the plasma sponsons. You say the Russ can't move and fire both of them, but as long as I keep it at combat speed the Lumbering Behemoth special rule says I can fire everything I have. At S7 AP2 I feel they would be good against encroaching melta-carrying elites (Termies, for insatnce) and/or AV12 or less transports or tanks. I wouldn't be against switching them to the Multi-melta, however.

I made this mistake about 2 weeks ago, just learned that Lumbering Behemoth does not let you fire all the weapons on the Russ. It lets you fire all the weapons you would normally be allowed to fire. The main gun of the Russ is Ord, which would normally mean you couldn't fire anything else if you fired the Battlecannon. But because of Lumb Behemoth you can basically ignore the BC exists, and just fire whatever else... and the BC. So if you stay still, you can fire everything... and the BC even though its ord. If you move 6" you can fire 1 weapon, your defensive weapons, and the BC even though you already fired antoher main gun and its ord. So in your case, if you move 6" you can fire 1 weapon (1 plasma cannon) and your defensive weapons (you have none) and your BC. If you stay still, then you can fire both, and the BC. Basically you just add "and the battlecannon" to whatever that chart at the back of your rolebook says a tank can shoot after it moves x". Make sense? So you are basically buying 40pts of plasma cannon, and you won't be able to use them all the time. Since their range is 3' versus the BC's 6' I have stopped thinking it was worth taking. I usually take the hull Las, and fire that as the "primary" when I move, then fire the BC. Hope that makes sense.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:The Demolisher im having a hard time letting go of. I have a Chaos Demolisher in my other army and that thing has done wonders for me (and its AV is less than the Lemans). I suppose I could ditch it for another Vendetta or something, but deep down I feel im cheating myself not bringing a S10 AP1 weapon to the foray. Any suggestions?

You needed anti-horde. And this guy here is a huge point sink. If you left him behind you could get other options. S10 AP1 is great, but frankly... its not when it can only move 6" per turn and has a range of 2'. If you really want S10 AP1 take the Medusa. It has the range, and can fire indirectly so you can hide it and keep it safe.

DeadKilly0311 wrote:Thanks, Lt Lathrop, for your input. It has been invaluable. Anything else would be well appreciated.

Np, I am glad it helped.

Alright, let's take a look:

HQ:
CCS w/ Regimental Standard in Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer

If you want these guys for leadership, beef them up a little. I recommend something like this: CCS + Lascannon + Vox + MoO + (Chimera ML/HB + Pintle Stubber): 170

Packs quite a punch against everything. You don't need a standard - it's better to take Commissars, because they give stubborn as well.

Troops:
Vet Squad w/ 3 meltas, 6 shottys in Chimera w/ Mlaser and Hflamer (x2)

I like these units. Meltas should never be your main anti-tank, but when there's a landraider at your lines or a battlewagon with Ghaz coming straight at you you need to be sure you're going to kill it, and that's were meltas come in. Shotguns can be great as a suicide manuever to delay Necrons, tie up Fire Warriors, or deny Orks the charge.

Infantry Squad w/ GL (x3), stock PCS, Heavy weapons team (3 Autocannons)

Infantry Squad w/ GL (x3), stock PCS, Heavy Weapons team (3 Autocannons)

Put the autocannons in with the infantry squads and blob them, it makes them less vulnerable. Give each combined squad of 30 a vox and a commissar, and you've got a twin-linked LD9 stubborn blob that'll be difficult to shift no matter what your opponent tries. Taking naked PCS', however, is a big no-no. Give them both chimeras (ML/HF) and 4 flamers, and you've got yourself some makeshift hellhounds.

Fast:
2 Vendetta Gunships

Excellent choice. If you want the most out of these, try this: take special weapon squads and put them in. Arm them with 2 flamers and a demo charge and you've got a deadly and cheap scoring unit.

Heavy:
LRBT w/ Lascannon and Plasma Cannon Sponsons

Despite what the others say, keep the plasma. You won't be moving your Russ most of the game if you positioned it well (and you can bubblewrap with your infantry to prevent assaults on it. Lascannon, no. You can spend 15 points much better somewhere else.

Demolisher w/ Lacannon and Plasma cannon sponsons

I don't think taking a single demolisher is a good idea, you opponent can disable it before it does much/any damage with the anti-tank they have at this point level. Either drop this, or take more than one. Drop lascannon and plasma here if you do choose to take more, these should be moving and won't get too much out of them.

Hydra Flak Tank

Always a good choice, but a single one won't do much. Drop it if you need to make points for something else.


@ Lt. Lathrop:
Medusas can't fire indirectly, maybe you're thinking of the manticore? It's not AP1 though (neither is the Demolisher or Medusa, actually, unless you buy Bastion-Breachers).




Overall though, I'm going to say your unit selection is pretty good. Even if you don't take any/much of the advice I gave, you just need to clear up your upgrades/weapons a little and you've got a fairly solid list.