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So a guy who goes to my hobby store plays a Green Tide Ork army and I've never beat him. Although up until recently he's been using fleet/run AND Waaagh in the same turn (cheating ), he still runs up and gets into CC with me before I can get a shot off at him. With 120 attacks per 30 man squad on the charge, there is no way I can win after he gets too close. I've tried using as many templates (Orbital Strike, Vindicator) as possible and I drop-pod a Iron Clad Dreadnought into the middle of his troops, but by turn 6 all my men are dead. Here's my list:
HQ:
Chapter Master with Honor Guard (Command Squad)
Librarian with Smite and Flame Template power (name?)
Chaplain
Troops:
10 man Tac Squad
10 man Tac Squad
5 man Scout Squad
Dedicated Transport:
Drop pod
Fast Attack:
10 man Assault Squad
Elites:
5 man Terminator Squad (Power fists and storm bolters)
Dreadnought
Ironclad Dreadnought
Heavy Support:
Vindicator

Please help!

I'm not sure if this wil help a Space Marine army.

But my Favorite trick for fighting green tides and Nids with my Dark Eldar is to kite them around the map and widdle their numbers. Then around turn 3 when their much weaker, charge them.

But I'm not sure what else to say.

Form a fire-base, which will consist of lines of units, starting with your Terminator Squad, then your Assault Squad, then your two Tactical Squads in two ranks of five each. Put each Dreadnought on a flank of the Terminator Squad, and have the Scouts outflank (to pick up an objective if you play that game, put to put them out of harm's reach in the early part of a kill-point game).

Basically if he just tries to scream and leap, he will first the skirmish line of Terminators you have put out. They will have moved forward to pepper them with Stormbolter shots and walked backwards next turn towards the waiting Assault troops and Dreadnoughts. When he's within 18" of your assault troops, you assault him first, using the Chaplain's Litanies of Battle to boot the boot in. This should be an assault on a single squad. Use the regular Dreadnought then to block other mobs on their way to troops behind it, and charge into a different mob in combat from the Assault Marines in the next turn. That same turn you'll want to use Combat Tactic to pull the Assault Marines out of combat if you lose, and then engage the unit engaging the Dreadnought in the following player turn. Drop the Ironclad behind his force and follow them up: don't engage in combat unless (1) he charges you, or (2) he would charge you if you don't charge him.

The basic idea is that of a Russian egg, that can pull back and shoot again. You use layers composed of units to engage and lock units of Ork boyz until the Assault squad or the Dreadnoughts can come in and extract them to assault fresher Ork units. All the time you're pouring in fire: sure they'll get a cover save, but they'll get one anyways if the player has a Kustom Force Field, so you might as well force him to have to go through your combat units to get to the squishy core.

Incidentally you can only have two HQ choices. I recommend the Chaplain and the Librarian. Give the Librarian Force Dome and call it a day. Put the Librarian with a Tactical Squad and your Chaplain with the Assault squad, and buy him a Jump Pack!

Wow. Thank you very much! I will have a chance to test out this strategy Saturday and will try and post a battle report that night.
Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Three things @ Nurglitch though:
1)What should I do with my Vindicator?
2)You mention a Dreadnought on both flanks and dropping an Ironclad in the back. Should I invest in another Dreadnought?
3)What do you mean by "All the time you're pouring in fire: sure they'll get a cover save." Does this mean shooting into Orks in combat is legal? It was my understanding that is illegal.

Sorry for my misunderstandings, but THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! Your help is appreciated and you are a tactical genius.

Nurglitch wrote:Give the Librarian Force Dome and call it a day.

This would be complete fail against an army with no AP4 or better shooting. Force Dome is not going to save you from anything he shoots, and if he's in CC you're losing men to the 115 regular attacks, not the 2 power klaw wounds.

Avenger and Might to at least have a chance of doing something offensively with the Libby.

@Praetor:

In general, these are the items in the SM codex that are the absolute bane of Orks:

Thunderfire Cannon
Ironclad Dreadnought
Whirlwind
*Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer*

Unfortunately you will have to buy more models to round out your list; you're playing a mixed bag of "battle force" options that don't do much of anything well. THat'd be okay against other battle force lists, but since your friend is running something as punishing as Green Tide against you you don't have a lot of room for error.

The single most influential model you could purchase would be the Land Raider Redeemer. You can use Power of the Machine Spirit to move 12" (remember, he can only hit you in the assault phase on rolls of if you move more than 6") and drop a flamestorm template on the Boyz. Use your Vindicator and rhinos, if you have any rhinos, to tank shock mobs into a neat ball for the Redeemer to roll up and flamestorm nine or ten models at a shot. You will wound on 2+ and he'll get no armor or cover. Then your assault squad can pop out with pistols and assault the weakened mobs while you use dreadnoughts to tarpit (that means sending in not necessarily to kill, but just hold up and bog down movement lanes) other fresh mobs to split his army up. Just keep doing this over and over until he runs out of Boyz.

The ideal anti-Green Tide army would basically look like this:

HQ: Doesn't matter

Troops: 2x Tacticals in Rhinos

Elites: 1 squad of Terminators in a Land Raider Redeemer

Heavy: Redeemer
Redeemer
Redeemer

Fast: Speeders with heavy flamers

At that point, though, it's absolutely no fun for the Ork player because he literally cannot win.

If you want to tweak your current army list, give the Ironclad dual heavy flamers, convert the Dreadnought into another Ironclad with dual heavy flamers (pretty easy to do), add 2 drop pods for the Ironclads, convert 5 Tactical squad Marines into 5 Sternguard with heavy flamer and 4 combi flamers in your 3rd drop pod, and add a Land Raider Redeemer to drive around the Librarian/Chaplain/Assault Marines.

Convert the Chaplain to Cassius for T6 and a combiflamer, give the Librarian Null Zone, and make sure you have 2x flamers and a combiflamer on your Assault Marines/Assault Sergeant.

Add a Land Raider Redeemer for the assault squad to ride around in.

Drop the Terminators and Vindicator from your current list to pay for the changes.

Turn 1 you drop pod the Ironclad Dreadnoughts into two different mobs and drop dual heavy flamers. Now your opponent is stuck with either assaulting an AV13 walker, or eating flame for the rest of the game. He'll have to assault, which will probably tie up 2 mobs for at least 2 turns. Your LRR charges forward 12", the missile launchers on your Tac squad shoots frag into the Orks.

In subsequent turns you will Outflank BEHIND the Orks with your Scouts, and drop the Sternguard pod BEHIND the orks and flamer/heavy flamer most of a mob to death. Now he has to split up his tide, to either charge the threats behind him, or continue forward into your LRR/tactical squads on the other side of the table. Orks are not mobile as a footslogging army, they have to pick a direction and stick with it.

This many flamer casualties, plus the mobs tied up with Ironclads, and your LRR driving around flame-owning stuff while your assault squad with 4 flame templates also flame-owns stuff should send the Green Tide packing.

Nurglitch's advice is good. I would also add buy a thunderfire cannon, deploy it behind your lines to take full advantage of its 60" range, fire it on airburst mode into a mob and watch your opponent cry.

Praetor_of_Ultramar wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Three things @ Nurglitch though:
1)What should I do with my Vindicator?
2)You mention a Dreadnought on both flanks and dropping an Ironclad in the back. Should I invest in another Dreadnought?
3)What do you mean by "All the time you're pouring in fire: sure they'll get a cover save." Does this mean shooting into Orks in combat is legal? It was my understanding that is illegal.

Sorry for my misunderstandings, but THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! Your help is appreciated and you are a tactical genius.

1. Blast stuff. Its more or less what the Vindicator is good for. I'd pick your targets carefully. Try and put it in the middle of large mobs, as that will boost your chance of hitting something in case of scatter, and watch for your own troops. Last thing you want is a stray round hitting your own men. Pick targets of opportunity and decide if the target is worth risking your own men if one of your own squads is close. That said, you're going to have the risk of scatter all game once those orks get close I'd think. It could be devastating while the orks are approaching, but once they're in a certain range your own units are in danger. Possibly replace it with a dakka predator or a thunderfire. They both put out a lot of bullets a turn, and orks aren't that hardy. What the vindicator can do with a blast both of those units can do with lots of shots. And both are cheaper points wise than a Vindicator.

2. Only 3 elites are allowed by the force organization chart. 5 Termies, 2 Dreads is 3. What you can do is remove the Chapter Master and honor guard (he's not worth it... ever). Only 2 HQ's are allowed and the Librarian and Jump Pack Chappy are both better choices. That frees up some points for you to work with. YOu can remove your vanilla dread a pick up a second Iron clad, add in two Landspeeders (Typhoons would work well here, or a HB/HF one), and maybe put some more terminators into your termie squad. Removing the Master and his Guard will free up over 200 points. There is so much you can do with that, and you might have some points left over. A Dakka Predator may or may not help you. I've never used one against green tide, but put it somewhere stationary and use those heavy bolters and autocannon to help screen the mobs Unlike your vindicator the Predator won't run the risk of hitting your own units. But then a thunderfire might do that job better. I don't know I've never used one XD.

3. No. What he means is the whole time you're playing the hit and run game with your opponent, your shooting as much fire into any unit you can. If somethings in range and not in melee combat, it's viable to be shot up and then followed up with an assault from the Assault squad or the dreadnoughts.

If your opponents footslogging chances are good you can set up a charge on the Orks if you got rhinos, land raiders, and the such That's the worst thing you can do to an Ork Mob, without the initial charge Ork are a puny 3 strength and 6 on the PK nob. Another trick to do is when it's their assault phase if you lose combat is to choose to fail your leadership test with a I4 to a I2 you are mostly likely gunna get out of combat clean. Then you can fire again at that unit and then re-charge it to tie it back up. Couple questions tho?>

1. When you say fleet/run then WAAAGH! are you saying your opponent is calling his WAAAGH! after running?
2. You list a Chapter Master, Librarian, and Chaplain as your HQ?

@ General Chaos
1)Yes he was calling a WAAAGH! after running up until a different Ork player was watching and he explained that that was illegal.
2) Yes, I did have 3 HQs, but Nurglitch explained that was illegal.
@ Everyone:
Looks like I'm gonna have to proxy/buy a bunch of models, but my birthdays coming up soon so...
Thanks very much everyone!!

I don't seem to remember any actual rule preventing the ork player from running all his (eligible) units and THEN calling the WAAAAGH!.

Sure it might be considered "gamey", "cheesy" and other things, but any actual rule I can't seem to find.

PS. It is very possible I have missed something.

@Praetor: First you need to fix your list. You can only take 2 HQ, so drop the Librarian. Other then that here are my suggestions for your slots and what you should do with them:

HQ: I would say ditch the Chapter Master and Honor Guard as well. Take a captain and a command squad instead, trust me, you will love the FNP that the apothecary gives you. The second HQ should be a chaplain, either with a jump pack, or take Cassius. He is well worth the points and will just eat up Orks, and will survive much better. If you decide to take Cassius throw him in with the Sternguard squad I suggest, or Vanguard. Either way he will help. If you just take a regular Chaplain then give him a JP and throw him in with your Assault Marines.

Elites: You should put in another Dreadnought, drop the Terminators and put in Sternguard in a Razorback. That will help you to lock up some more Orks and give you some added firepower for a very reasonable point value. Both of your dreadnoughts should be taking heavy flamers and TL Auto Cannons. They will whittle da boyz down nice and easy.

Troops: Give your Tactical Squads a flamer and HB each, and with the points you save from the reduced HQ cost you should buy another one and have 3 SM squads of 10. Throw them all in Rhinos, and just camp them along the back. You can fire your HB every turn and the rhinos give you great survivability, especially against orks. Do your scouts all have sniper rifles? If not you should give them all rifles and throw Telion in there too. Use them to pick of Ork vehicles and Nobz, they will help plenty. And not to mention, if Telion hits his target, YOU, not the other player, YOU get to decide who gets them. He is great for getting rid of that annoying Nob with a PK and a Bosspole.

Fast Attack: Love, love, love the assault marines. Be sure to give them two flamers, and give your sergeant a combi-flamer and Power weapon. They will just chew through boyz with those two templates and all of those attacks. If you have the extra points you can throw in a 5 man Vanguard Squad for 125 pts, and they are a good stop gap and cleanup crew, especially with a chaplain attached.

Heavy Support: I love the Vindicator, and it has saved my butt plenty of times, but I don't really take them against Orks. It is really overkill, and you can spend the points more wisely. I say take either 3 Whirlwinds, they will kill boyz just fine, and they are cheaper, or take 3 Thunderfire cannons. When you start throwing out 12 templates a turn, you will see boyz just start to fall in stacks. You might even make your opponent cry.

I hope that helps. That list will help you plenty, and you will kill more boyz then you can imagine. PM me if you have any more questions.

Using the Waaagh does not give you any special movement. It simply gives fleet (unless I've been lied to for a long time) and provides rules for the fleet movement that do not apply in 5th edition. So if you use it after running, you cannot move again, but it still allows you to assault after running, which is what fleet does.

Steelmage99 wrote:I don't seem to remember any actual rule preventing the ork player from running all his (eligible) units and THEN calling the WAAAAGH!.

Sure it might be considered "gamey", "cheesy" and other things, but any actual rule I can't seem to find.

PS. It is very possible I have missed something.

You can declare your WAAAGH! at any point in your shooting phase. And yes this means after you run your boyz. This is very, very cheesy, but nonetheless effective. There exists no stipulation in the Codex that says you must declare it at the beginning of your shooting phase. If other players don't like it then that sucks. I know this doesn't help you very much Praetor, but da rulez is da rulez!

JEB_Stuart wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I don't seem to remember any actual rule preventing the ork player from running all his (eligible) units and THEN calling the WAAAAGH!.

Sure it might be considered "gamey", "cheesy" and other things, but any actual rule I can't seem to find.

PS. It is very possible I have missed something.

You can declare your WAAAGH! at any point in your shooting phase. And yes this means after you run your boyz. This is very, very cheesy, but nonetheless effective. There exists no stipulation in the Codex that says you must declare it at the beginning of your shooting phase. If other players don't like it then that sucks. I know this doesn't help you very much Praetor, but da rulez is da rulez!

Wow way to have no understanding of the rules. WAAAGH! no long er gives extra movement, all it does now is allow you to assault after running. FULL STOP. There is no extra movement at all, thus declaring it after running does nothing, and in fact does less than nothing when done with Ghazzy in the list.

That's what he said. Fleet lets you assault if you run, he said you can declare Waaagh after running to be able to assault them. That way avoids the drawback where the unit takes a wound if you roll a 1 to run.

You have to declare the Waaagh! in order to get the Fleet benefit. In other words, all units that run before it is declared don't get to charge in the Assault phase.

I see, I'll have to remember that for later then
I always thought that they simply needed to gain the Fleet ability before the assault phase to be able to get the assault after running.
I declare Waaagh at the beginning of my shooting phase anyway.

Remember a WAAGH! isn't a move. The unit just gets Fleet.

Pure RAW, Norade has it down, but not everyone plays full RAW.

It's not illegal to call your WAAAGH! after running as the rules are written. Rules as written say you can call your WAAAGH! anytime during your shooting phase and fleets rules only start that you can assault after running.

But it's just good sportsmanship to call your WAAAGH! before running which is what most decent Ork players do.

Oh and INAT FAQ says you need to call your WAAGH! before running...

Its a good idea to waagh after running only if you arent sure whether you will make it to assault range. Of course, this doesnt apply when you use Gazzy. His waagh is much more interesting because you can use it during your opponents turn if you dont want a unit to flee shooting or are worried about gazzy surviving.

Nurglitch wrote:You have to declare the Waaagh! in order to get the Fleet benefit. In other words, all units that run before it is declared don't get to charge in the Assault phase.

Can you back that statement up with a rules quote?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Norade wrote:

JEB_Stuart wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I don't seem to remember any actual rule preventing the ork player from running all his (eligible) units and THEN calling the WAAAAGH!.

Sure it might be considered "gamey", "cheesy" and other things, but any actual rule I can't seem to find.

PS. It is very possible I have missed something.

You can declare your WAAAGH! at any point in your shooting phase. And yes this means after you run your boyz. This is very, very cheesy, but nonetheless effective. There exists no stipulation in the Codex that says you must declare it at the beginning of your shooting phase. If other players don't like it then that sucks. I know this doesn't help you very much Praetor, but da rulez is da rulez!

Wow way to have no understanding of the rules. WAAAGH! no long er gives extra movement, all it does now is allow you to assault after running. FULL STOP. There is no extra movement at all, thus declaring it after running does nothing, and in fact does less than nothing when done with Ghazzy in the list.

Wow, way to not be able to read. Neither of us claims that WAAAGH! gives you any kind of extra movement.

Steelmage99 wrote:I don't seem to remember any actual rule preventing the ork player from running all his (eligible) units and THEN calling the WAAAAGH!.

Sure it might be considered "gamey", "cheesy" and other things, but any actual rule I can't seem to find.

PS. It is very possible I have missed something.

You have it correct. The Ork player may call his WAAAUGH! after he has run.

Since there is no movement associated with the WAAAUGH!, he doesn't get to move any further than move distance + run distance, of course, he now simply has the option of assaulting whereas before he wouldn't due to running.

Yeah, the guy I was playing would run by rolling a die and adding that to his movement, but then he would roll another die to see how far he moved with WAAAGH! From reading over this forum that seems wrong use of WAAAGH!
@JEB_Stuart: So a new, better list would be like:
HQ: Cassius or Chaplain with Jumpack
Captain with Command Squad
Troops: 10 man Tac Squad w/ Flamer and HB x3
Scout squad with Snipers and Telion
Ded. Transport: Rhino
Drop Pod
Razorback
Elites: 2 (Ironclad?) Dreadnoughts
Sternguard Veteran Squad
Fast Attack: 10 man Assault Squad (w/ Chaplain?)
Vanguard Veteran Squad (?)
Heavy Support: 3 Whirlwinds or 3 Thunderfires
Vindicator (?)

THANKS EVERYONE VERY MUCH FOR ASSISTANCE, and with the rules!

Praetor_of_Ultramar wrote:Yeah, the guy I was playing would run by rolling a die and adding that to his movement, but then he would roll another die to see how far he moved with WAAAGH! From reading over this forum that seems wrong use of WAAAGH!
@JEB_Stuart: So a new, better list would be like:
HQ: Cassius or Chaplain with Jumpack
Captain with Command Squad
Troops: 10 man Tac Squad w/ Flamer and HB x3
Scout squad with Snipers and Telion
Ded. Transport: Rhino
Drop Pod
Razorback
Elites: 2 (Ironclad?) Dreadnoughts
Sternguard Veteran Squad
Fast Attack: 10 man Assault Squad (w/ Chaplain?)
Vanguard Veteran Squad (?)
Heavy Support: 3 Whirlwinds or 3 Thunderfires
Vindicator (?)

THANKS EVERYONE VERY MUCH FOR ASSISTANCE, and with the rules!

I would keep a vindicator and use two Thunderfires. The Thunderfires have a longer range than a whirlwind and still allow you to kill orcs on a 3+ while negating both armor and cover saves. It also gives you the option to kill mobs in the open on a 2+. Keep the Vindicator around to help deal with squads of Nobz and vehicles that get close to your lines.

Nurglitch wrote:You have to declare the Waaagh! in order to get the Fleet benefit. In other words, all units that run before it is declared don't get to charge in the Assault phase.

That is not true. If gives you the Fleet USR, so you can still assault regardless of when you call it during shooting.

Praetor_of_Ultramar wrote:Yeah, the guy I was playing would run by rolling a die and adding that to his movement, but then he would roll another die to see how far he moved with WAAAGH! From reading over this forum that seems wrong use of WAAAGH!
@JEB_Stuart: So a new, better list would be like:
HQ: Cassius or Chaplain with Jumpack
Captain with Command Squad
Troops: 10 man Tac Squad w/ Flamer and HB x3
Scout squad with Snipers and Telion
Ded. Transport: Rhino
Drop Pod
Razorback
Elites: 2 (Ironclad?) Dreadnoughts
Sternguard Veteran Squad
Fast Attack: 10 man Assault Squad (w/ Chaplain?)
Vanguard Veteran Squad (?)
Heavy Support: 3 Whirlwinds or 3 Thunderfires
Vindicator (?)

THANKS EVERYONE VERY MUCH FOR ASSISTANCE, and with the rules!

Save the points and just do regular dreads. Other then that, yeah, the list is pretty good.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Norade wrote:Wow way to have no understanding of the rules. WAAAGH! no long er gives extra movement

I never said it did, please read before you post.

Norade wrote:all it does now is allow you to assault after running. FULL STOP. There is no extra movement at all, thus declaring it after running does nothing, and in fact does less than nothing when done with Ghazzy in the list.

It is very useful to call after running, that way you avoid the possible wounds for rolling a 1 to run, and you can determine if you can assault at all. No more flaming please. Besides if you think I am wrong put your thought in a post in a different forum. A rulez discussion has no place here.

A rules discussion is very pertinent here, since it affects the tactics that the Ork player can employ, and affects the game. After all, if a player is just going to cheat by taking the benefits of the Waaagh! rule without its costs, then there's no point in even playing with rules.

Again you imply that it is cheating to call the WAAAGH! after you have run with your units.
And again you have failed to present any kind of argument as to why.

Want to have another go, Nurglitch?

What do you do with your Vindicator?

You park it in one spot and sit there. A couple good Vindi shots will ruin his day.

Well just to tell you he can't field a GREEN TIDE WITHOUT IT BEING APOCLYPSE!
So he was playing illegal.

Steelmage99:

Yes, trying to game the rules so that you gain the benefits without the costs is cheating. See the YMDC forum for more details: Waaagh! Benefits without Costs?