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I don't actually play IG but playing against them (and reading the 'leaf blower' articles) I came across something somewhat amiss.

The medusa siege mortar cannot fire indirectly, which means that it cannot lob it's shots over chimeras castled around it. Is the turret/gun elevated up enough to shoot directly over intervening chimeras or is LOS blocked? Remember, line of sight is drawn from the back of the barrel through to the front so you can't claim LOS when the muzzle is poking out from behind chimeras!

Slackermagee wrote:I don't actually play IG but playing against them (and reading the 'leaf blower' articles) I came across something somewhat amiss.

The medusa siege mortar cannot fire indirectly, which means that it cannot lob it's shots over chimeras castled around it. Is the turret/gun elevated up enough to shoot directly over intervening chimeras or is LOS blocked? Remember, line of sight is drawn from the back of the barrel through to the front so you can't claim LOS when the muzzle is poking out from behind chimeras!

If the LOS is blocked, it's blocked. The only way to check is to actually check.

Well it depends on a lot of things but the gun is high enough so it can normally be pointed over the chimera (the chimera turret is fairly low and cannon is mounted rather high)

As gwar! says. if LOS is blocked then it cannot fire.

I'm sure some players would claim that they can measure from an elevated barrel. Technically, I suppose, you can do this(I'm pretty sure that muzzle position relative to target isn't covered in the big book) IMO elevated is not the same thing as being able to bear the muzzle directly on target.

Whilst it doesn't fire indirectly in a barrage, it does Lob the shells. I would measure line of site from from the mouth, and if LOS is blocked, its blocked- doubt a chimera could block it though. Not high enough

It's just like any other direct-fire gun. The structure of the model means it can fire at most anything from behind/over another Chimera.

Slackermagee wrote:I don't actually play IG but playing against them (and reading the 'leaf blower' articles) I came across something somewhat amiss.

The medusa siege mortar cannot fire indirectly, which means that it cannot lob it's shots over chimeras castled around it. Is the turret/gun elevated up enough to shoot directly over intervening chimeras or is LOS blocked? Remember, line of sight is drawn from the back of the barrel through to the front so you can't claim LOS when the muzzle is poking out from behind chimeras!

Owning some Forgeworld Medusa's and GW Chimera's I placed them next to each other to find out your answer. The minimum angle the Medusa gun depressess is about 10 degrees. So, from the get go, if you wanted to be TFG, you might claim the Medusa cannot fire at anything ground level. LOS being drawn from the back of the barrel through the front and all.

Using Medusa's myself, I have found that most oppenents don't have a problem just drawing LOS from the muzzle, which is about 1cm diameter with its center being 64mm off the ground when its fully depressed. Raising the gun to full elevation puts the muzzle center at around 85mm. For sake of all this LOS, we'll assume the opponent is allowing the gun to be fired in it's fully depressed state. If the Medusa is placed directly behind the Chimera the muzzle of the Medusa clears the hull of the Chimera without a problem. If LOS is drawn from the muzzle across the Chimera turret (with one of the taller "new" model turret hatch) the turret blocks the lower 1mm or 2mm of the muzzle. Being that the muzzle is 10mm's, the center of the muzzle still has clear LOS straight out (about 64mm off the ground). A Chimera will affect how close one will be able to shoot troops, but a Medusa's LOS clears a Chimera.

Another TFG point of argueing could be made that partial muzzle is blocked therefor LOS is blocked or partially blocked, BUT the rules don't specify where on the barrel you need to measure. So you could measure from the top of the muzzle opening, or from the bottom...

Can't be arsed to take pics at the moment, but could if you really need the visual proof Slackermagee.

-Deewalla

Deewalla wrote:
Owning some Forgeworld Medusa's and GW Chimera's I placed them next to each other to find out your answer. The minimum angle the Medusa gun depressess is about 10 degrees. So, from the get go, if you wanted to be TFG, you might claim the Medusa cannot fire at anything ground level. LOS being drawn from the back of the barrel through the front and all.

Is this before or after the "all guns can fire 45 Degrees vertically both ways" rule?

True Gwar!, but if you're drawing a LOS through the hull of the chimera thats shielding you to get at those infantry...

Anyways, something to remind people of at the FLGS when this comes up again. 45 both ways and break out the laser pointer...

I find the best thing to do is use a laser pointer.
A guy I play with has a specialty one that forms a cross hair & even has a hook on the back to wrap around a model for accuracy. Not sure where he got it though.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I find the best thing to do is use a laser pointer.
A guy I play with has a specialty one that forms a cross hair & even has a hook on the back to wrap around a model for accuracy. Not sure where he got it though.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300024&prodId=prod1410001
... do some people not actually visit GW stores? mine had a rack of these when they were released about the same time as BGB

Probably not, no one likes being pounced on by 3 different staff members when they walk through the door and having product they don't want stacked in their arms while another guy goes for his wallet.

There's no GW store within reasonable distance of me & my FLGS doesn't carry them.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:There's no GW store within reasonable distance of me & my FLGS doesn't carry them.

there's not even a GW in my state! and if i wanted that kind of abuse, i'd get married. oh sorry, my wife just reminded me i can't do that again...

Deewalla wrote:

Slackermagee wrote:I don't actually play IG but playing against them (and reading the 'leaf blower' articles) I came across something somewhat amiss.

The medusa siege mortar cannot fire indirectly, which means that it cannot lob it's shots over chimeras castled around it. Is the turret/gun elevated up enough to shoot directly over intervening chimeras or is LOS blocked? Remember, line of sight is drawn from the back of the barrel through to the front so you can't claim LOS when the muzzle is poking out from behind chimeras!

Owning some Forgeworld Medusa's and GW Chimera's I placed them next to each other to find out your answer. The minimum angle the Medusa gun depressess is about 10 degrees. So, from the get go, if you wanted to be TFG, you might claim the Medusa cannot fire at anything ground level. LOS being drawn from the back of the barrel through the front and all.

Using Medusa's myself, I have found that most oppenents don't have a problem just drawing LOS from the muzzle, which is about 1cm diameter with its center being 64mm off the ground when its fully depressed. Raising the gun to full elevation puts the muzzle center at around 85mm. For sake of all this LOS, we'll assume the opponent is allowing the gun to be fired in it's fully depressed state. If the Medusa is placed directly behind the Chimera the muzzle of the Medusa clears the hull of the Chimera without a problem. If LOS is drawn from the muzzle across the Chimera turret (with one of the taller "new" model turret hatch) the turret blocks the lower 1mm or 2mm of the muzzle. Being that the muzzle is 10mm's, the center of the muzzle still has clear LOS straight out (about 64mm off the ground). A Chimera will affect how close one will be able to shoot troops, but a Medusa's LOS clears a Chimera.

Another TFG point of argueing could be made that partial muzzle is blocked therefor LOS is blocked or partially blocked, BUT the rules don't specify where on the barrel you need to measure. So you could measure from the top of the muzzle opening, or from the bottom...

Can't be arsed to take pics at the moment, but could if you really need the visual proof Slackermagee.

-Deewalla

Deewalla hit it right on the head. If you own any of the Forgeworld models as the Hydra, Medusa, or Manticore they sit well above the Chimera model and can draw a clear LOS to most things. the only thing they would have a hard time is firing their hull mounted weapon because of the chimera but when are you going to fire that thing usuall? The Hydra will be able see things roughly 2 to 3 inches in front of a Chimera and Medusa I would say about 4 inches in front of it.

Gwar! wrote:Is this before or after the "all guns can fire 45 Degrees vertically both ways" rule?

The barrel of the Forgeworld Medusa can physically depress to roughly 10 degrees above level. If you then "assume that guns can swivel vertically roughly by 45 degrees", yes, 0 degrees or lower can be achieved by the Medusa's cannon.

As Darkwynn pointed out, having a Chimera in front of the Medusa does create a good 4 to 5 inches of "dead zone" in front of the Chimera. Hydra's, being much higher in mounting and longer in barrel only contends with 2-3 inches of "dead zone". However, the hull weapon of a Medusa, Hydra, or Manticore will be completely blocked by a Chimera. *Edit* And by hull weapons I mean the frontal Heavy Bolter/ Heavy Flamer. Not to confused with the Medusa Siege Cannon, which one could contend is a "hull mounted weapon" as it has no turret, pintle mount, or sponson.*Edit*

-Deewalla