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Is this idea stupid? I have a gut feeling that its way too many eggs in one basket but maybe I'm wrong.

Platoon A
5 x 10 Infantry Squads, Lascannon, Sniper Rifle, 1 Vox
Commisar, Power Weapon
+
CCS, Vox (assorted weapons)

480 points by my calculation

Goal: Scary fire support unit that will camp an objective and blast the enemy with 5 TL'd Lascannons a turn. Not horrible in HtH combat either because of Commisar. Basically I use this squad to hold a flank and allow my more mobile units to take the fight to the enemy.

i'd drop the sniper rifle and add plasma guns. if You want to make it harder to dig out, i'd think plasma over the sniper rifle could be harder.

In a big game I think it can be pretty worthwhile. You might even consider dropping the sniper rifles for power weapons for increasing their melee threat or plasma gun for increasing their killing power. In a small game it might not be worth holding 480 points back immobile while there are objectives that need capturing. Personally I prefer more mobile offensive mobs, as vendettas are a much cheaper way to get twin-linked lascannons. For the same points you could have 2 vendettas with well-equipped veteran squads inside giving you 6 twin-linked lascannons, more and better special weapons, and they're still scoring. FRFSRF and the ability to tarpit enemy units is nice, but both of these tactics, especially tarpit, work much better with some mobility. In a 2500 point game, 480 points isn't a crazy amount to spend on holding your side of the table though.

Culler wrote:In a big game I think it can be pretty worthwhile.

Yeah I wouldn't consider this in games less then 1.5k and even then it would probably be a smaller squad (30-40).

I too thought about the Vendetta + Vets and while they would have more mobilty/firepower, I feel that they'd have less durability and be easier kill points in games.

Plus I'm trying to find a useful way to make a Hybrid list.

As for weapons, I thought about the Plasma but in the end I went with the cheaper option because the squad was already expensive and Snipers have better range.

I also thought about Autocannon/Plasma for S7 killing or Autocannon/Grenade for cheap multi-purpose threat.

I'd take the Lascannon over the Autocannon in this type of squad.

Maybe consider switching out the Sniper Rifle for Flamers? As some counter-charge/defensive weapons.

Pie plates would really ruin your day though.

I'd give them weapons based on what the rest of your army has and what opponents you're likely to face. With a new 'Nid codex being released, MCs will be common and lascannons/sniper rifles with bring it down will leave you in good stead (plasma would also be good but sniper rifles are both cheaper and longer-ranged.) If the rest of your army is mounted in multilaster-toting chimeras with heavy flamers, lascannons are probably the better bet than autocannons. If you don't have much strength 6/7 weaponry, plasma/autocannons will be nice.

My issue with flamers in a unit like this is that since they're not going to be moving and the flamers are so short and the unit's footprint is so big basically means that your flamers won't do anything unless your opponent moves into them rather than another part of your unit and even then you're probably going to get charged before they can do anything because even if you move before shooting them you're only threatening 15" out and the flamer is decreasingly effective as you get to the edge of that range. With so many units having fleet or otherwise able to manage a charge from up to 18" out, it just isn't likely to be helpful. Flamers are better in mechanized, mobile, and/or fast units.

Grenade launchers just seem like something you buy if you have points to spend and special weapons slots free. They don't do much more than a lasgun except they can take out light vehicles and encourage your opponent not to bunch up their troops. Still, 3 strength 3 hits or so from the blast isn't much better than 1.5 from a FRFSRF lasgun in rapid range. 5 lascannons do anti-vehicle just fine as well, without input from grenades. Just some thoughts.

Culler wrote:
Flamers are better in mechanized, mobile, and/or fast units.

Grenade launchers just seem like something you buy if you have points to spend and special weapons slots free. They don't do much more than a lasgun except they can take out light vehicles and encourage your opponent not to bunch up their troops. Still, 3 strength 3 hits or so from the blast isn't much better than 1.5 from a FRFSRF lasgun in rapid range. 5 lascannons do anti-vehicle just fine as well, without input from grenades. Just some thoughts.

Great advice. I really like Flamers for IG but I have a hard time using them outside of 4x in a PCS, footslogging a template just seems like a bad idea.


To be honest I'm kinda considering going all the way with this idea.
5 IS w/ 5 LC, 5 PG, 5 PW , 1 Vox + Commisar PW = 525

Would it be worth it to consider adding Meltabombs or the like to stop myself from being tarpitted by a walker?

let us know How it works!

That's starting to look a lot like the blob I have in the Ig army I'm looking at playing. What I did is drop the lascannons/plasma for meltaguns/meltabombs and have Straken following them around. The meltabombs to stop a walker tarpit. Wraithlords will still be a tarpit you can never get away from but that's pretty niche. I like the static blob with its lascannons and plasma, but giving all your sergeants plasma and power weapons starts driving the cost up considerably and benefit vs. payoff becomes an issue. My blob started as a static unit but I ended up going for the trimmed-down version to act as a big scary unit to force my enemy's movements. There is validity either way but as tends to be the case in 40k versatility comes with increased cost.

Part of me really likes the LD9 Stubborn squad o' doom and effectiveness of Orders with a single big squad it just begs to be assaulted by something to stop them from firing. The other option is having 5+ individual squads and watching them die or run away slowly but surely.

i agree, no plasma pistols! Too expensive. i can't even justify it in my Vet squads

If you're investing 500 pts in a blob, giving them some meltabombs/kraks is good insurance.

I would strongly recommend taking a second commisar for a unit this large. I find that canny opponents can often find a way to snipe (mindwar, JotWW, SAG rolling double 6's, vindicare assassins, etc) out a single commisar and make the blob run off the table.

0ldsk00l wrote:I would strongly recommend taking a second commisar for a unit this large. I find that canny opponents can often find a way to snipe (mindwar, JotWW, SAG rolling double 6's, vindicare assassins, etc) out a single commisar and make the blob run off the table.

Thats a good idea. A second Commisar would be a fairly minor increase in points and adds an extra PW in there anyway. I like it!

I have been using captain sidewinder (my alrahem) in a couple of games..his 2 squads are blobbed together with a commissar, all with PW, with GL and autocannons as the squad weapons..in both games (1 vs space wolf, 1 vs eldar) even a blob of 2 squads did great, as they outflanked and really caused damage to the enemy units at the edge they were in. I have previously tried blobs at my firebase, also with PW, but in those games I never got to use the PW since the enemies had difficulty getting though my mech component. Those that did got charged and destroyed by rough riders.

I have now removed the rough riders (for a change) and as I have mentioned the PWs of the commissar and the sergeants of the outflanking squad finally put these weapons to good use. The squad finished off a grey hunter squad in assault which charged it after it was diminished by lasguns and GLs in the space wolf game, and vs the eldar it wiped out a dark reaper squad, and killed an autarch on a jetbike after, the latter via close combat.

I personally think that blobs can get too large, and this limits your shooting options, and one that gets tarpitted in hth can get locked forever...so if you get a second commissar, why not split the 5 squad blob in 2 units, after all you do not pay any extra points? At least you get to use the ability of the CCS to issue 2 orders, as 5 lascannons and SWs may end up as overkill on some targets....

I'd stay with the sniper rifles and only take plasma guns if you really need AP2. I think the increased range of the snipers will really help you out, and they are well known to be effective weapons against enemy Monstrous Creatures, which certainly look to be returning to the battlefield in the near future!

Thanks guys, I think you're onto something with the 2 smaller squads. It also helps to minimize the chance of 1 giant squad being locked up by a single Walker.

It would also give you the chance to mix up the weapons, to create a more flexible loadout. How does this look?

3 x IS, 3 LC, 3 SR, Vox, Commisar + PW = 275
3 x IS, 3 AC, 3 PG, Vox, Commisar + PW = 275

With this loadout, I created a dedicated anti-armor/MC squad (Snipers/Lascannons) and a dedicated anti-light armor/heavy infantry (Plasma/Autocannons).

If its a kill-point game, sure, but I think you'll find more success having multiple units in objective-based games. More efficient allocation of firepower, just finer-grained in general.

I really like the 2 units of 30. It's expensive but a nice way of splitting up your firebase. Nothing prevents them from using FRFSRF on the same unit either.

Culler wrote: Nothing prevents them from using FRFSRF on the same unit either.

Well, a unit can only be given an order once anyway, even if it fails to be executed. 2 units receiving orders definitely maximizes the CCS better....

Nurglitch wrote:If its a kill-point game, sure, but I think you'll find more success having multiple units in objective-based games. More efficient allocation of firepower, just finer-grained in general.

Well there is the option of just deploying everything on its own, but that seems to waste the points of the Commisar.
Sure 90 points in a list might not be a huge deal but thats something still.

I am torn between the option we've discussed here, a blob of LD9 Infantry squads that can use Orders to the full effect
or
just put a sprinkling of Infantry Squads and HWS on the tabletop and try to go for a target saturation technique.

minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:If its a kill-point game, sure, but I think you'll find more success having multiple units in objective-based games. More efficient allocation of firepower, just finer-grained in general.

Well there is the option of just deploying everything on its own, but that seems to waste the points of the Commisar.
Sure 90 points in a list might not be a huge deal but thats something still.

I am torn between the option we've discussed here, a blob of LD9 Infantry squads that can use Orders to the full effect
or
just put a sprinkling of Infantry Squads and HWS on the tabletop and try to go for a target saturation technique.

You can still do both, as the decision to blob is made during deployment....

Even in objectives games going with the blobs gives you the ability to tarpit enemies effectively and maximizes your ability to utilize orders. Giving FRFSRF or bring it down to 2 or 3 units of 10 and having the other 30 or 40 shooting regularly is less than optimal. As long as you have other scoring units in your army to go after objectives such as squads in chimeras or valks/vendettas then you shouldn't have to worry about it.

Culler wrote:Even in objectives games going with the blobs gives you the ability to tarpit enemies effectively and maximizes your ability to utilize orders. Giving FRFSRF or bring it down to 2 or 3 units of 10 and having the other 30 or 40 shooting regularly is less than optimal. As long as you have other scoring units in your army to go after objectives such as squads in chimeras or valks/vendettas then you shouldn't have to worry about it.

Yeah in all these cases it would seem like we're debating a unit that exists to camp a home objective and provide fire support.

From my previous topics, it seemed that non-mechanized Infantry squads weren't viable for objective claiming.

Actually, you can have outflanking troops for objective claiming...

1. Penal legion squad
2. harker led vet squad
3. alrahem led platoon
4. With creed, you can nominate another blob to also outflank....

I've been toying with the idea of a cheap blob with flamers for screening and taking objectives. It would be followed by a PCS with grenade launchers, to issue MMM and I! to increase the mobility and survivability of the blob, while the flamers and FRFSRF provide firepower, with the GL's chipping in too.

This is a minority opinion but 50 points for 5 power weapons would buy 15 power weapon attacks a turn, plus 3 more for the commissar.

Against MEQ units sergeants with a power weapon hit on a 4 and wound on a 5 when charged by the enemy.

Against MEQ units howling banshees with a power weapon hit on a 4 and wound on a 5 when charged by the enemy.

Sergeants have 2 attacks, howling banshees have 1 attack. 5 Sergeants + 1 commissar =18 attacks the same as 9 howling banshees.

Q. How high do points have to go before this blob tactic starts getting really effective.

I have a 2k army. But i sometimes join forces with my friends 2k IG army. Iv been reading alot of people using this tactic and some say its even usable in small armies eg 750ish and some saying it is a compleat waste.

imperialist dog wrote:Q. How high do points have to go before this blob tactic starts getting really effective.

I have a 2k army. But i sometimes join forces with my friends 2k IG army. Iv been reading alot of people using this tactic and some say its even usable in small armies eg 750ish and some saying it is a compleat waste.

i blob/don't bLob based on the situation not on the point level i'm playing, personally.

schadenfreude wrote:This is a minority opinion but 50 points for 5 power weapons would buy 15 power weapon attacks a turn, plus 3 more for the commissar.

Against MEQ units sergeants with a power weapon hit on a 4 and wound on a 5 when charged by the enemy.

Against MEQ units howling banshees with a power weapon hit on a 4 and wound on a 5 when charged by the enemy.

Sergeants have 2 attacks, howling banshees have 1 attack. 5 Sergeants + 1 commissar =18 attacks the same as 9 howling banshees.

You know, the more I think about it the more the idea of a "melee" blob might have some appeal. It seems to solve the big problem of IG which is a lack of decent assault units.

Now don't get me wrong, 30+ guardsmen, a Commisar and a few Power Weapons does not make a good assault unit but it makes a decent counter-assault/tarpit squad and I'd rather have those Berserkers chewing through one big unit that can actually hurt them a bit instead of my HWS.

The melee blob also gives you some options as far as footslogging scoring units up the board. Just put a wall of Armor in front of them and they'll atleast have a 4+ cover save as they advance. Have a PCS using Move! Move! Move! and I think they could make it up the board in good time.