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Well I am building a Kan Wall list at the moment and the question of my elite choices bugged me. Should i Bring a full squad of Kommandos with Snikrot or a full squad of Lootas? Or Something completely different because I'm not sure on tactics on how to take out a landraider or something with 14 AV.

Thanks.

Well, neither is the answer to AV 14. The answer to AV 14 is 1; Tankbustas, 2; Power Klaws, or 3; Both.

For a kan wall list, I would recommend the kommandos and Snikrot. They'll either force the other guy to deploy closer to you, or he'll foolishly ignore them and they'll eat a squad for lunch.

Ok thanks for the in put. Basically what I'm saying is if my opponent brings AV 14 vehicles into the mix I'm just wondering how to counter it. Just PKs? I was planning on giving my Kans Grotzookas.

Skipjack wrote:Ok thanks for the in put. Basically what I'm saying is if my opponent brings AV 14 vehicles into the mix I'm just wondering how to counter it. Just PKs? I was planning on giving my Kans Grotzookas.

PK are about it. Are you takintg a dread? They are a troop choice with the Big Mek. They will make short work of AV 14 vehicles. Also you could attach a warboss fully kitted out with the Kommandos and Snikrott to really cause some back field distruction.

I'm a fan of lootas over kommandos for their ability to take out units from far away that will ruin your day if you let them be for 2-3 rounds such as guided war walkers or IG artillery divisions. Lootas also pretty much always have something to shoot at while kommandos can encounter units that they don't really want to charge.

Lootas are much better than kommandos

They fill different roles. First off, you can't take 1 squad of lootas and expect them to perform. You can take 1 squad of Kommandos and expect them to perform.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:They fill different roles. First off, you can't take 1 squad of lootas and expect them to perform. You can take 1 squad of Kommandos and expect them to perform.

Your saying 15 Lootas isn't good enough?

One squad of lootas (no matter the size) cant be counted upon to deal a lot of damage. One unit can target one unit, thats fine if there are only 1-2 good targets to deal with but its not nearly enough firepower if you really need them to engage multiple targets. If your opponents army truly is weak vs lootas then quite simply hes going to do something about your one unit... say perhaps shoot at them with two units of guided scatter laser toting warwalkers.

One unit of kommandos that are going to be able to come in on any map edge will force your opponent to deploy ALL of his units to be ready for this one unit. Kommandos can deny the back edge of the board to your opponent, gaining you a key turn or two of closing for the can wall. This effect becomes more pronounced if you play the same opponent repeatedly with kommandos, it only takes one good game of kommando blitzing to make people very wary of the back table edge. Especially if you obviously examine the back edge of the table every turn, as if plotting where the kommandos are going to be entering.

Lootas work very well if they are used in numbers, they kick out enough shots to really make the ork army a shooty menace. Its quite possible to take 3 units of lootas as the basis of a fire base and go with a gunline orc list.


If you are only taking one unit, kommandos will tend to be the better choice in disrupting your opponent.



Neither lootas nor kommandos are going to be at all helpful taking out land raiders tho.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth thanks for the great info.

I'm Guessing any combination of both Kommandos and Lootas is not really a smart strategy? I think I will probably get both and just try them out and see what I like more.

Skipjack wrote:Well I am building a Kan Wall list at the moment and the question of my elite choices bugged me. Should i Bring a full squad of Kommandos with Snikrot or a full squad of Lootas? Or Something completely different because I'm not sure on tactics on how to take out a landraider or something with 14 AV.

Thanks.

It´s a interesting question. You should read the forum, looking for dashoofpepper comments, but i´ll give my two Bolter shots here:

They are 2 different kinds of troops. Both need to be maximized to become good. With infiltration and boss snikrot you willmake your oponent avoid the table edges.
Of course neither of the units are good against AV14 but the kommandos are good against all other things, if you use 2 burnas.

in my last game against chaos, i used one unit of each...so my main tatic was to shot with lootas in rhinos (i was luck enough to blow up 2 of three) so i force disembark and charge with trukk boys to attack the remaining marines. The kommandos and snikrot take care of a demon prince (my trukk boys had already shooted it the previous turn eating 2 of his 4 or 3 wounds) and a unit of three obliterators, since they attack later than the burna boyz (i slugga shot them before i assault to try to soften them and took only one wound of the unit)

so my point is:
their role is completely different one and the other.
the lootas are a soften and soft unit.
the kommandos are a killing unit.
If you are using a shooting ork list....use lootas, if you are using a fast, MEQ list i vote for kommandos, but if you have the points use both. but remember, they are great but only maximized. 15 boyz and 12 boyz + snikrot + 2 burnas.

hope it´s of use.

The reason I have taken to lootas over kommandos is that lootas can break transports more reliably than kommandos and in this modern MEQ environment, that's huge. I use one squad at anything lower than 2k and they almost always perform admirably (notable exception being against a deathwing army of land raiders and terminators with night fighting rules always in effect and your whole army coming from reserves.) In typical scenarios they tend to be a lynchpin unit. The biggest reason that I stopped using kommandos was the popularity of IG and their tendency to have an officer of the fleet. Against this my kommandos are more of a turn 4 entry than a turn 3, and at that point the battle is mostly over. During that time a squad of lootas will put out an average of 120 shots. Even if you're talking about a turn 3 entry I'd still rather have the 90 loota shots. I've also had experiences with my kommandos where they don't really want to charge anything or nothing is in charge range. A CC marine mech army easily present such a scenario. Typically Snikrot and friends come onto the table and eat one enemy unit before being shot to pieces. If this one enemy unit isn't 255 points, then you may be at a loss. I realize there are other factors in play like trying to make your opponent fear the board edge, but a castle formation will protect against snikrot.

Really for me the argument of how many shots the lootas get to fire while you wait for snikrot to show is the deciding factor. However, using them both isn't a bad idea. I experimented heavily with using one or the other early on but found that while the lootas typically outperformed the kommandos having both was feasible in the 1750+ range. In a mechanized army, the kommandos might serve better so that you don't have to worry about LoS issues.

I would think that lootas are superior.

However, I would encourage extra vehicles in a kan list, preferably battlewagons. Armour saturation is something that you can't get away of sadly.

These all have been very helpful thanks. I just do some trial and error battles and see whats right for me.

Keep in mind that if you're running a kan-wall, you have nine STR10 DCCWs in addition to 3-4 powerklaws. You don't really need any other answers to land raiders.

As for whether Lootas or Kommandos work better in a Kan-wall....the very first question that ANYONE should be asking you is "How many points are you playing?" When you make a Kan-wall, there's priorities, all more important than others - and I'd put them in this order of importance.

#1: Nine killa-kans, preferably with 9x Grotzookas. Army=405 points.

#2: Big Mek + Kustom Force Field: Army=490

#3: 2x squads of 30 shoota boys, + Nob with a powerklaw in each: Army=920

If you're playing a 1,000 point game, there's your cue to stop and flesh out your list for 80 more points. Big shootas in the boys squads, or dropping a single boy to squeeze in a second Big mek with a KFF so that you don't have to clump your Killa-kans so closely together to benefit from an obscured save.

#4: A second Big Mek + Kustom Force Field: Army=1,005

#5: Two more squads of 30 shoots boys, + Nob with a powerklaw in each: Army=1,435

If you're building a 1,250 army, take a squad of shoota boys away and tweak with big shootas. If you're playing 1,500 points, keep that fourth squad and tweak with your big shootas or consider 'heavy armor or powerklaws on your big meks.

#6: Squad #5 of Shoota boys, Nob and powerklaw. Army=1,650.

#7. Long ranged or outflanking anti-tank is the key missing ingredient, and at 1750+, you can expect to see a chunk of tanks. Insert 2x Deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkits. In my list, one per squad. Army=1,740

#8: For 1,850 I'm going to tweak in another deffkopta or two. Alternatively, those two Big meks allow for taking Deff Dreads as troop choices - I might squeeze in two of those instead of that 5th ork mob.

Nowhere in there is there room for Lootas or Kommandos. To get up to 2,000 points I'm going to flesh out what I have there and THEN worry about my elite choices. And when I do, its going to be kommandos - Lootas don't belong within six miles of a kan-wall list. As your entire army crosses the field to smash into the enemy, do you really plan to do yourself the stupid disservice of leaving a single unit unprotected in the rear where a single model that can turbo-boost, or an outflanking unit, or virtually anything at all can pound on the one thing that doesn't fit into the synergy of the rest of your list? I'd hope not.

Dashofpepper wrote:Nowhere in there is there room for Lootas or Kommandos. To get up to 2,000 points I'm going to flesh out what I have there and THEN worry about my elite choices. And when I do, its going to be kommandos - Lootas don't belong within six miles of a kan-wall list. As your entire army crosses the field to smash into the enemy, do you really plan to do yourself the stupid disservice of leaving a single unit unprotected in the rear where a single model that can turbo-boost, or an outflanking unit, or virtually anything at all can pound on the one thing that doesn't fit into the synergy of the rest of your list? I'd hope not.

I disagree. Leaving yourself unable to do anything to your enemy until your footslogging units can get to them is folly, especially in a dawn of war deployment where your entire kan wall formation has to walk from your board edge. Units like war walkers, thunderfire cannons, IG artillery, and others can all make you regret giving your enemy 3 or 4 turns to blast at you. At 1k or less I like my kan wall with 6 kans and a bunch of lootas. Generally no more than one boyz mob per kan mob. Trying to fit 150 boyz and 9 kanz in a single deployment zone without bunching up, much less walking on like in dawn of war, will leave your boyz bunched together and even more vulnerable to the artillery blasts which they cannot stop.

The good news about running a kan wall is that the footprint is massive. Turbo-boosting jetbikes or grav tanks is not a threat to lootas until the boyz mobs are dead because they cannot get over them without leaving themselves within assault range and their rear arc vulnerable to the tender attentions of dozens of shootas/big shootas or the lootas themselves. In one game my opponent took out my lootas with deepstriking warp spiders, at the expense of losing the spiders of course and only then due to failing my morale test, and even knowing that it would occur I would still take them in that game because they knocked out one wave serpent and locked down another so my forward element could charge it, leaving my opponent easy pickings before my opponent sacrificed an expensive unit to take them out. Worst case scenario for killing lootas is snikrot or space wolf scouts. Outflanking is easy to avoid by just deploying them in the middle of the table. Wolf scouts and snikrot can come in from the long edge and this can be more of a problem unless you do like I do and surround them with the gretchin unit I take to cover rear objectives or a boyz unit when you see your opponent is fielding SW scouts or Snikrot. Gretchin get assaulted, die like good little goblins, and then the wolf scouts can enjoy a face full of autocannon fire that just happens to have an AP that penetrates their armor. Lootas are hardly defenseless. On average a full unit puts 10 strength 7 hits on something and if they get charged they still have 2 attacks each and ws 4.

I also find that fielding lootas means that I can equip my kans with grotzookas without worry, a weapon which I adore. The other option would be rokkits to take out light vehicles and transports.

I don't think its possible to post on these forums without someone disagreeing with you. =p

OP: I'm a fan of promoting synergy and an army that works with itself, in a unified theme to accomplish a goal. In real life military, we call this combined arms. The analogy doesn't translate as well as I wish it would, but bear my agenda in mind - armylists organically designed to mesh the units in it with each other as seamlessly as possible.

I do this with all my races and armies, and my army lists perform superbly. I won't make a case that my way is the only way, but I will say that I'd like nothing better than to see some of the people on this forum across a table from me.

Dashofpepper wrote:

but I will say that I'd like nothing better than to see some of the people on this forum across a table from me.

I would have to agree completely, considering I dont play the standard Chaos list, I get similar flak that I just laugh at. Im the same way with synergy. Its something that just cant be math/theory hammered, and it's truly amazing what "sub par" units are capable of when working together.

If your looking to add 1 squad, I would recommend snikrot and krew over a squad of lootas. While the lootas could sit back and give some fire support, they will be vulnerable to attack bikes, winged DPs, snikrot, etc.
Snikrot and krew have more synergy with a kan wall. Your goal with the Kan wall is to close on your enemy, shoot them into oblivion then assault with the Kans/boys.

Snikrot assists in this strategy. Without fail, snikrot attracts lots of attention from your opponent.
They will either afraid of snikrot, and will deploy his entire army more than 12" from his board edge. This assists by bringing his army closer to your kans.
They will over-react when snikrot attacks, and half or more of his army will focus on Snikrot and krew and wipe them out. This saves your kans and boys from a turn of firing while Snikrot is turned into a fine red mist.

I'd include one of each, but if you're limited to one squad then I'd go for knommandos+snikrot. They can scare your opponent into deploying futher forward, and are very capable of taking out most things from infantry to tanks.

Funny discussion... not because its invalid, but because of some really quirky arguments and counter arguments that can be made....

I'm just going to run through some circular arguments... then go into my speak on why there is NOT a right answer.

Lootas kill transports better.... but which unit survives when an army with one loota unit faces an army with one snikrot led kommando unit?

Lootas cut down enemy mobility (the bane of foot orks) more efficiently.... but kommandos crawl into your opponents head, they make enemy units deploy further forward than they should, and they pin counter-infantry units into place as they wait for the kommandos to arrive so that they can counter them.

Lootas have 48" range, so they can influence huge areas of the table.... but before snikrot arrives, your opponent has to be ready for him to be literally anywhere. If waaaagh hasn't been popped yet, the kommandos can easily charge anything within 15" of any table edge.


Ok, since you seem to be a new player to orks, I will say that you need to start with lootas. Without a doubt lootas are one of the most impactful units in the codex. They help shore up huge blindspots that an otherwise slow ork army has, and they are adequately survivable against most armies for their points.

Once you truly understand what you'll be sacrificing by NOT taking lootas, then you can start thinking about alternatives....

As was aptly mentioned, competitive tourney play has been moving very sharply towards mechanized based lists. Some armies can't be fully mechanized and still function, wile others can be completly vehicle based with little to no sacrfice in overall killyness. Snikrot does not interact well with mechanized armies. he tends to arrive, kill a vehicle that costs between 35 and 150 points, and then unceremoniously scooped off the table. He doesn't influence mechanized players deployment, or movement, because they know that they can just stand still and ignore him, then react to his arrival only when it becomes clear where he is going to go.

Do keep in mind that not every tourney army you face will be fully mechanized. More and more excellent back-line units are appearing in recent codexes. Long fangs, tervigons, heavy weapons squads, infantry squads, broadsides, crisis suits, pathfinders are all tourney staples, and are adversely affected from turn one by the knowledge that snikrot is in your list.

One last bit of advice when usign snikrot and facing full mech. Most ork players, even the good ones, resign themselves to just trading their 225 point unit for a 35 point rhinos when they are facing mech. they declare a charge and maybe even burn a waaaagh to get their kommandos in base to base contact 5 wide and 3 deep. This is certain death against template weapons. you are handing them 7 and 8 hits per teardrop. In situations where I have kommandos and I am facing a table with no real charge targets, i choose to arrive somewhere more conservative. Ideally you have taken either rokkits or big shootas, (15 orks with snikrot dont need 6 power weapon attacks, just use brute force to win combats, you'll never be fighting assault specialists. and if you are within good flamer range, then you are in charge range.) Arrive in cover, VERY spread out, behind enemy lines, and pepper side and rear armor with either te rokkits or the big shootas. You are unlikely to permanently damage anything with this move, but now your opponent is looking at a kan wall approaching him, and this half sized boy unit parked in his own zone. the kommandos may ultimately not do anythgin spectacular in this situation, but in creating a second front for your enemy, he has some new tough decisions to make. Couple these shenanigans with outflanking deffkoptas, and now he is enveloped, which is infinitely harder to screen against and fight off than just a lumbering kan wall with loota support....

man, that got long....

Start with lootas, learn how good they are. then see if you can find room for units that are unconventional.... they could improve your game.

rvianarpg wrote:It´s a interesting question. You should read the forum, looking for dashoofpepper comments, but i´ll give my two Bolter shots here:

Since this email went over 12 hours without reply from Dashofpepper after his name was invoked, I've included below a quick and easy Summon DoP card. You can play this at anytime to immediately bring him into the discussion.

I'm tempted to make that my avatar. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:OP: I'm a fan of promoting synergy and an army that works with itself, in a unified theme to accomplish a goal. In real life military, we call this combined arms.

I'd just like to point out that modern combined arms tactics typically involve artillery support/air support from some unit far from the action.

Culler wrote:

I'd just like to point out that modern combined arms tactics typically involve artillery support/air support from some unit far from the action.

Yes, and you...conveniently(?) didn't read the very next sentence which explained that the analogy doesn't translate very well into 40k? Air support, artillery, and a lot of other things are missing.

Culler wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:OP: I'm a fan of promoting synergy and an army that works with itself, in a unified theme to accomplish a goal. In real life military, we call this combined arms.

I'd just like to point out that modern combined arms tactics typically involve artillery support/air support from some unit far from the action.

I would like to point out the basis for combined arms has nothing to do with how you employ combined arms but confronting the enemy with multiple problems while maintaning control of the tacticle situation. If they move x they are engaged by Y if they go to ground you do z. Combined arms works very well in 40k if you understand what the actual doctrine is. Preseant multiple problems with decreasing levels of destruction and then slam the trap shut. Very simple, vey effective and very easily misconstrude. Yes my spelling sucks sry.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Culler wrote:

I'd just like to point out that modern combined arms tactics typically involve artillery support/air support from some unit far from the action.

Yes, and you...conveniently(?) didn't read the very next sentence which explained that the analogy doesn't translate very well into 40k? Air support, artillery, and a lot of other things are missing.

The point is that artillery isn't missing, you're just refusing to take it in your list. Lootas, basilisks, whirlwinds, eldar support weapon platforms, devastators, havocs, big guns, orbital strikes, etc. are all 40k artillery equivalents.

As far as anaologies not translating goes, if it doesn't translate then don't use it. That's like saying 'X because Y but not really, disregard what I said completely.'