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I had a strange Idea... A troop choice in a Green Tide army, that can move quickly, provide some fire at a descent range, and live till the end of the battle to claim/contest objectives...

My Choices:

Grots: cheap, does not contribute enough, too slow

Another unit of 30 slugga boyz:too slow, too expensive not to be in a fight, does not contribute if not busy fighting

A Unit of 12 Trukkboyz with sluggas: Just Fast enough but if they get into a fight, they can no longer be counted on to claim/contest objectives

A Unit of 12 Trukkboyz with Shootas: Just Fast enough, Cheap Can contribute outside of a CC fight, is capable of fighting a another troop choice of comparable value (About TAC squad) and winning

So with my 20 shootaboyz I had converted, 2 Trukks that I bought (and the 2 Big shootas from AOBR, and 2 Nobz with PKs)... I had everything I needed for a unit that I could rely on an objective game.

Note: This also helped me with my obsession of keeping things even... 5 troop choices for objective games always bothered me...

Please Post your thoughts...

Current army list please.

I personally run shootas on foot, sluggaz in the trukk.

IMHO if all you want is an objective grabber and you know your big slugga mobz will be in the enemy's face then why does the unit need to be fast? 20 shootaz on foot or some cheap grot mobz would do the job too.

You created a false dilemma in your first post.

Option three should be "another unit of 30 shoota boys." If you're running a foot-slogging army, it should be shoota boys, not slugga boys.

If you're running a mechanized army, it should be slugga boys in there. If you put shoota boys into a trukk, you still only get to move 6" and fire. You could do the same on foot, but now you only have 12 of them instead of 30. I think you're really going down the wrong road here.

Currently for troop choices is:
4x 30 sluggas, powerklaw, boss pole...
2x 12 shootas, Big shoota, Powerklaw, boss pole...

Would this be better?
3x 30 sluggas, powerklaw, boss pole...
1x 30 shootas, Powerklaw, boss pole...
2x 12 sluggas, powerklaw, boss pole... (Red Paint for the Trukks)

Currently I am limited by funds... but I do have a box of 10 more boyz waiting to be assembled into what I need.

More Shootas is the way to go. Sluggas worked fine before people learned what to do with Orks, but I've got around 100 Choppa/Slugga Boyz that would be mostly relegated to Apoc games only if I were to continue competitively with Orks, almost all being replaced by Shootas.

You're moving in the right direction with the 30x shootas, but you still need more.

30 shootas is all I got... I am going to use the 30 shootas to guard the big mek while contributing to the action... and saving points on wargear.

I think it's an intriguing idea having a fast vehicle that can move a "shooty" unit to a place where they can sit a fire.
I ran a simulation here: 11 shootas+1 bighoota+truk bigshoota=22 f4 and 6 f5 shots against 10 marines T4 Sv3+
Ran a million of rounds and the results were that 90% of the times you killed less than 3 marines.
So no, the kill ratio is way to low. You would need two of these units on the same target and I assumed that a claw was not included. Still you pay more than half the price of a tactical to kill less than half of it.
In a similar simulation, 11 pistols + 2 bigshoota = gives you that 90& of the times you kill only 2, but the results in close combat should be a lot better (still have to simulate that).

The interesting part for me after this exercise is that now I might change my shoota boyz in the wagon for more close combat units

TLDR version:

agalavis wrote:In a similar simulation, 11 pistols + 2 bigshoota = gives you that 90& of the times you kill only 2, but the results in close combat should be a lot better (still have to simulate that).

Not as big of a difference as you might expect between shootas and sluggas shooting and charging from a trukk.

I'll be honest, I was surprised after running these figures. I expected the extra shots and extra attacks to both make a bigger difference on their respective ends of the combat. I guess it's all about the threat range and how you use them. When looking to charge into close combat, Shootas will make a big difference against high initiative elite troops (i.e. Shootas will perform better against Nobs or Vanguard) by getting to reduce the return attacks, whereas Choppas/Sluggas will do better against models with lower WS (Fire Warriors) or initiative (TH/SS Terminators) by virtue of hitting first with their close combat attacks that are more likely to hit as opposed to the shootas which always miss 2/3 shots.



Full text:

Bah. A single Trukk Boyz squad should never be engaging a tactical squad on their own. Yes, it can be done. No, you're not doing it right if you try it though.

I'll run the rough averages with and without a big shoota in the choppa/sluggas, because people tend to disagree about putting these in C/S squads. But do the squad right, a PK is a must (and thus a slugga for him), we know that.

Shootas: 10 shootas + 1 pistol + 2 big shootas (remember, getting credit for one from the trukk as per above): 21 S4, 6 S5.
Sluggas1: 11 pistols + 2 big shootas ("" ""): 11 S4, 6 S5
Sluggas2: 12 pistols + 1 big shoota ("" ""): 12 S4, 3 S5

Needing 5's all around, 1/3 hit.

Shootas: 7 S4, 2 S5.
Sluggas1: 2.667 S4, 2 S5.
Sluggas2: 3 S4, 1 S5.

4's and 3's to wound.

Shootas: 3.5 + 1.334 =~ 4.8 saves to take
Sluggas1: 1.334 + 1.334 =~ 2.667 saves to take.
Sluggas2: 1.5 + 0.667 =~ 2.167 saves to take.

3+ saves, 1/3 actually kill a model. Not enough for full squad allocation, so we'll assume all assigned to regular bolters.

Shootas: ~1.6 dead marines
Sluggas1: ~0.889 dead marines
Sluggas2: ~0.722 dead marines

For simplicity, assume the marine sergeant doesn't have any special gear, just his extra attack.

Shootas: ~9.4 swings coming back
Sluggas1: ~10.1 swings coming back
Sluggas2: ~10.3 swings coming back

4's to hit, 4's to wound.

Shootas: ~2.35 dead orks
Sluggas1: ~2.525 dead orks
Sluggas2: ~2.575 dead orks

Not a big difference, on average you'll lose one more choppa/slugga boy than shoota boy around 20% of the time, and you'll do more damage in close combat with the extra attacks from the choppa/sluggas, skipping some of the math here but you'll put out about 8-9 more swings with the c/s, which translates into one more dead marine on average.

Swinging back--

Shootas: ~9.65 average remaining, translates to 25.95 swings + 3 klaw attacks
Sluggas1: ~9.475 average remaining, translates to 33.9 swings + 3 klaw attacks
Sluggas2: ~9.425 average remaining, translates to 32.7 swings (remember the b.s.) + 3 klaw attacks.

4's and 4's this round (plus a few 4's and 2's w/o saves)...

Shootas: ~6.4875 saves, kills just over 2 more marines on average, and 1.25 on average from the klaw.
Sluggas1: ~8.475 saves, kills just under 3 more marines on average, and 1.25 on average from the klaw.
Sluggas2: ~8.175 saves, kills around 2.7 more marines on average, and 1.25 on average from the klaw.

Totals --

Shootas (with Big Shoota): lose ~2.35 on average, kill ~4.8 marines
Sluggas1 (with Big Shoota): lose ~2.525 on average, kill ~5 marines
Sluggas2 (w/o Big Shoota): lose ~2.575 on average, kill ~4.7 marines


Post Script: Just realized I forgot to give all the Boyz their 6+ saves. The numbers will look a little better than this if run with the save in favor of the Slugga boyz, but not by much at all. All 3 squads lose about ~0.2 less Orks, Shootas kill about ~0.13 more marines, sluggas each kill about ~0.17 more. Mea Culpa, but I'm not spending the time to fix it right now.

Your numbers are skewed by a few things.

1) As you pointed, out, orks get their miserable 6 save. It's not much, but it is something.

2) Shooting would have produced -33% of the wounds you show above. Orks have a 2 ballistic skill, so your 4 to hit calculation is off.

3) Most importantly, you are comparing apples to donuts. Comparing the killing power of 97 points in boyz vs. 205 points of marines is a slanted battle, and boyz rarely attack alone. If the numbers were doubled on the orc side, remembering that the 2 transports that the orks are sitting in cost point and get to shoot as well, the result would be a dead space marine squad no matter how you slice it, and minimal casualties to the now bloodthirsty savages. The numbers are somewhat off no matter what you do, since there is an assumed rhino in the mix and no explanation of how the rhino was dealt with. But if you take a step back and make it just about the occupants inside, 194 points of orks (2 squads fromthe above sample) outright kicks the teeth in on a group of marines, particularly when given the assault. Being outnumbered almost 5 to 2, and only getting worthless 6 point kills with each unsaved wound, the space marines can only hope for a round of tied down orks before the end even when they get the assault. However, CC isn't what they do best, so it's not a surprise. That same rhino full of space marines could rapid fire one group of orks down to a very managable size 5-6 orks left in a group) before the orks got the assault, and have a 50% chance of watching it flee off the table due to panic with no CC required if the tables were turned and the orks were the ones exposed out of their transport.

1) Noted.


2) BS 2 is accounted for. The "4's and 3's to wound" section is for the sluggas and big shootas, respectively.

Malecus wrote:Needing 5's all around, 1/3 hit.

3) I simply filled in the numbers which aglavis left for later, as I was curious about his figure of killing "only" 2 marines 90% of the time with 11 pistol shots and one big shoota. Turns out, it works, but only if the marines decide to come to play naked.

Malecus wrote:Bah. A single Trukk Boyz squad should never be engaging a tactical squad on their own.

I for one am a fan of the shootas in trukks. I've found that they provide lots of bullets to shoot, as well as still owning face in CC, also, their trukk comes with a big shoota, so that is technically a 'free' big shoota.

My shoota squads have shot enemy squads off the table before, but you need lots of them in order to make them work. (unless you take ten boyz with a big shoota and park them on an objective, then use the trukk to carry burna-boyz or something)

Malecus wrote:3) I simply filled in the numbers which aglavis left for later, as I was curious about his figure of killing "only" 2 marines 90% of the time with 11 pistol shots and one big shoota. Turns out, it works, but only if the marines decide to come to play naked.

Gotcha. Orks rule.

Malecus wrote:Not as big of a difference as you might expect between shootas and sluggas shooting and charging from a trukk.

You bring up good points. Extra shots from the shoota truuk, combined with the big shoota on it, help to improve the effectiveness of the squad.

It also gives you other options other than just assault. For example, if there are TH/SS termies, you have the option to sit and plink 26 shots into them at an 18" range.
You also get an effective 30" area of influence with the shootas (12" truuk + 18" shoota).
Of course, these troops need to be accompanied by battlewagons or they will draw to much anti-vehicle firepower.

Let's be clear here... I'm not advocating "this is a good idea, use Trukks of Shootas exclusively". I think it's a rather poor idea actually, because of things that haven't been discussed yet, primarily prolonged combat (Shootas going in to close combat get one more shot than Sluggas do, but Sluggas swings are always as likely or more to hit, and they get one more each in every round of combat, shooting phase or not). What I was attempting to do was point out that while they have a bit more flexibility pre-combat, Shoota Boyz really aren't that much better than their Slugga counterparts at the 12-model squad level, which the OP implied rather heavily.

The unit should still be either 20 models in a Battlewagon or 30 on foot in the cases where it can't be 30 in a Stompa or 100+ on foot.

Shoota boyz in a trukk is a great unit. I use two of them in my BW list and keep them in reserve as counter charge units and objective grabbers. They come off the board 12", disembark, fire at and charge the foolish unit that tried to get behind my BWs. They have great reach and with a PK Nob they're tough in combat. Most people don't see it coming until its too late.

There's been some talk about how 12 shoota boyz don't have the girth to take anything serious down. Just from recent memory I'm going to recount the units that 12 shootas have wiped with shooting and charging out of the trukk.

10 Dire Avengers with Farseer.
10-man TAC squad, sgt. w/ PF
5 sternguard with pedro
6 TH/SS termies (A bit of bad rolling here and the PK took out 3 by itself)
3 Oblits
Venerable Dreadnought

And other things that aren't as impressive. The 2 squads of trukk shootas I run are invaluable and I would recommend them as an excellent counter charge unit. Beautiful.

*sigh*

And again, I must posit that I think shootas in trukks are a mistake.

You're either moving 7-18" and not shooting, thereby giving up an extra close combat attack when you need it, or you're moving 6" per turn so that you can shoot out of the trukk and being extremely wasteful because shoota boys can do that without the trukk.

The whole point of trukk boys is to get into close combat as fast as possible. For me and my mechanized ork list, that's a 13" move, a 2" deployment, a 6" run (fleet movement because of Ghazghkull) followed by a 6" assault. There's rarely room for shooting in my units.

They've heard your opinion Dash, don't try to browbeat them into following your strat.

Dracos, if everyone only posted their thoughts once, and read entire threads, and used the search function, and did many other things, that would make sense. As it is, this is the internets and I do what I want.

Dashofpepper wrote:Dracos, if everyone only posted their thoughts once, and read entire threads, and used the search function, and did many other things, that would make sense.

Sounds like blogspot...

Dracos wrote:They've heard your opinion Dash, don't try to browbeat them into following your strat.

They don't have to follow his strategy, but they should take his points into account. The mathhammer agrees that Sluggas>Shootas (if in trukks), unless the Shootas get shots in twice. To do that, the trukk would have to go at 6", which negates the point of trukks.

If they can counter his argument, then by all means they should use shoota trukks. Also, as this is tactics, Dash has a duty to try and make the tactics as best as possible.

Why isn't a unit of 20 'Ard Boyz in a Battlewagon an option? Best unit for what you're looking for.

Pika_power wrote:

If they can counter his argument, then by all means they should use shoota trukks. Also, as this is tactics, Dash has a duty to try and make the tactics as best as possible.

QFT. Although if Dracos follows his own advice, he won't show up in this thread again. =p

The one thing many people haven't factored in is waaagh movement.

2 str 4 shots and 3 str 4 attacks is pretty damn close to 1 str 4 shot and 4 str attacks and looking at that people think, hmmm shootas and sluggaz charge the same, why not use shootaz in trukks.

But they don't charge in the same fashion at all. To do the same amount of damage on the charge as sluggaz shootas are required to shoot which means no running or waaagh movement.

Sluggaz however don't usually need that extra pistol shot so they can waaagh with abandon, which means a minimum charge range from sluggaz on the turn you waaagh is 21". that's a massive charge range and potentially it could be 26"!

Sluggaz in trukks are too frail to kill most things but they are very good for indentifying stuff that absolutely must die soon (lash DP, vindicator, oblits, baaal pred, etc) and getting a turn 2 charge off to probably kill them and at the very least tie them up for a turn or 2.

I run a split list (yes, i know boo that sucks, but meh, works for me and I like playing it) and the role of the trukks is as a surgical strike to remove things that will prevent my big shoota mobs on foot from making it into cc.

Grotz are for sitting in your backfield on the objective and giving your SAG 33 extra wounds (3 herders remember)

I think the different opinions in tactics is from a misunderstanding on how I use the shoota trukks. Certainly the added waagh range for slugga coming out of the trukk gives them a bigger assault range, but I've really not been in a situation where 20" assault range isn't good enough. I keep the trukks to come in off reserve to counter other fast units (serpents, drop pods) that have gotten into my backfield. At this point the boyz can cover about half the distance of the board while shooting and assaulting. Also I can use the boyz to come off and get the objectives closer to me that I don't have boyz on while the rest surge forward to get the farther objectives. Sure the extra assault range is nice, but the way I use them I don't feel that is really worth the loss in flexibility that the shootas provide.