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rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

Never...now a Tervigon or Tyranno...

 ductvader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

Never...now a Tervigon or Tyranno...

A BS / LW Flyrant should take a Thorax Weapon. But for Dakkaflyrants, just stick with the Devs, and add 2 more gaunts.

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

The reason for the Thorax swarms - D3 automatic Haywire hits on a dread/walker that charges you. Also consider that Overwatch is Bs1 - even twin linked, D3 auto hits is mighty tasty.

Plus Devourers don't even dent AV13 or AV14.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

The reason for the Thorax swarms - D3 automatic Haywire hits on a dread/walker that charges you. Also consider that Overwatch is Bs1 - even twin linked, D3 auto hits is mighty tasty.

Plus Devourers don't even dent AV13 or AV14.

Yeah they do...just from the other side of the tank.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

The reason for the Thorax swarms - D3 automatic Haywire hits on a dread/walker that charges you. Also consider that Overwatch is Bs1 - even twin linked, D3 auto hits is mighty tasty.

Plus Devourers don't even dent AV13 or AV14.

S5 ap5 ignores cover - ESG can put serious dents in pesky scoring units, even eradicating some completely. Other times it helps remove a handful before you finish the unit off in combat.

For 10 pts I'll take a s5 flamer every time. Haywire is just a bonus.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

The reason for the Thorax swarms - D3 automatic Haywire hits on a dread/walker that charges you.

I've pretty much never been charged by walkers. YMMV.

Also consider that Overwatch is Bs1 - even twin linked, D3 auto hits is mighty tasty.

12 shots TL - 3-4 hits S6 even at BS1. It's why I use dakkafexes as AA.

Plus Devourers don't even dent AV13 or AV14.

Sure. Those are for punching.

What's the best loadout for Shrikes? I've just picked up some cheap FW wings and have 6 spare Warriors to use. I'm tempted to run them with ScyTals, Rending Claws and AG because they could probably use them, but my common sense is telling me it's 6E so stop being silly and shoot stuff.

I'm far too lazy to magnetise them.

 xttz wrote:
What's the best loadout for Shrikes? I've just picked up some cheap FW wings and have 6 spare Warriors to use. I'm tempted to run them with ScyTals, Rending Claws and AG because they could probably use them, but my common sense is telling me it's 6E so stop being silly and shoot stuff.

I'm far too lazy to magnetise them.

So I go against the grain, and I magnetize things according to it's role in the FOC. IE, I put my wings on my raveners as they are both fast attack. 27 raveners magnetized with wings can be 27 shrikes. Meanwhile I still can play my warriors as is. Plus it gives them that "Quetzalcoatl" look that the ladies love.

Loadout should depend on role.
Either they're raveners that don't need a synapse node of their own using something along the lines of scytals/rending claws/spinefists.
Or you play them like DE scourges/mobile synapse node and use them as mobile fire suppresion and use things like strangler/double deathspitter/rending claws.

 xttz wrote:
What's the best loadout for Shrikes? I've just picked up some cheap FW wings and have 6 spare Warriors to use. I'm tempted to run them with ScyTals, Rending Claws and AG because they could probably use them, but my common sense is telling me it's 6E so stop being silly and shoot stuff.

I'm far too lazy to magnetise them.

I have 6 magnetized shrikes. I regularly run 2 with BS + LW + STs (Marine Killers) and 4 with RC + STs (Vehicles/MC/Terminator killers), and I give them all flesh hooks. I don't think shooty Shrikes are the way to go. I would rather get them in CC as soon as possible. Flesh Hooks give you some shooting, that because of its limited range you aren't going to kill yourself out of charge range, they provide overwatch, and they can pop transports to get at the yummy meat inside.

I don't do AGs, because Strength isn't usually a problem for them, and you can reroll charges if you don't use their jump packs in movement (Move 6 instead of 12).

For their points, you aren't ever going to get good value out of Shrike shooting.

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

One of my Flyrants is equipped with the Reaper, so it doesn't have a second set of devourers to shoot.

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

I agree that its a "not optimal" buy, but I assume its there for anti-Knights, though he did not buy it for the Winged assasain... The only thing I'd do differant though is dropping one Hive off a Dakka'rant, and buy Toxin for the assaain, and thats just because I obsessivly buy Toxic for the LW/BS combo (and I'd change the Rending bugs to Electro to get two templates of Haywire )

pinecone77 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

I agree that its a "not optimal" buy, but I assume its there for anti-Knights, though he did not buy it for the Winged assasain... The only thing I'd do differant though is dropping one Hive off a Dakka'rant, and buy Toxin for the assaain, and thats just because I obsessivly buy Toxic for the LW/BS combo (and I'd change the Rending bugs to Electro to get two templates of Haywire )

I got the Shreddershards on the Assassin. Really, I sort of want to use him to jump on small squads. Like command squads. And a rending template seems tempting for that. To each thing a purpose and a purpose it must stick. If I try to make the melee small squad bully into a tank killer it won't work so well. With the Dakka Flyrants - well, if something gets stripped to a single hull point I'm just going to fly up and Electrogrub it rather than risk 12 shots that may or may not roll a glance.

Ummm, electroshock wounds a command squad on 2+ and ignores their armor. Shreddershards wound on 4s and only ignore armor 1/6 of the time.
I still say ESG are the tac choice, whether you're facing infantry or tanks.

I believe that JY would agree with me that giving up the devourers on the Shrikes is a bad idea...they get it for free and it's a pretty bad@ss gun for an effective 30" range.

If you want scytals...you should have taken Raveners.

Now I personally take Rending Claws on my Shrikes, Flesh Hooks, and I give 2-3 of them Boneswords...no Lash Whip necessary. And don't waste points upgrading their front ranks when they'll just die expensively instead of just dying.

 ductvader wrote:
I believe that JY would agree with me that giving up the devourers on the Shrikes is a bad idea...they get it for free and it's a pretty bad@ss gun for an effective 30" range.

If you want scytals...you should have taken Raveners.

Now I personally take Rending Claws on my Shrikes, Flesh Hooks, and I give 2-3 of them Boneswords...no Lash Whip necessary. And don't waste points upgrading their front ranks when they'll just die expensively instead of just dying.

Shrike's main protection come from being in close combat. Devourers jeopardize that by having the potential to kill enough units so that you fail the charge. If you take Devourers you should drop flesh hooks and take AG instead to have a better chance to make the charge.

Also the shooting profile of Flesh hooks is nothing to laugh at. 2 S6 shots. Compare that to 3 S4 shots or 3 S5 shots:
Flesh hooks are better against everything but T3 than Devourers. In fact they are better at T6+ than deathspitters.
Flesh Hooks are better at popping armor than Devourers or Deathspitters.
Flesh Hooks are better at overwatch against everything but T3 than devourers and better at anything T6+ than deathspitters. Also better against most walkers (AV13 still can't touch).

The only place Flesh hooks fall down is range. I think it is a good philosophy that if you are 10+" away from an enemy unit, you should be running instead of shooting. That way you have a better chance of getting HOW and rerolling charge distances. If your are within 6", Flesh hooks are great at shooting. It is the same reason JY prefers 2 TL-devourers on Carnifexes. You lose one turn of shooting, but gain an earlier charge possibility.

And when you do get into assault, doing 25% more attacks is worth it.

Shrikes main protect and reason for being taken actually comes from having units around it that it is supporting.

Running shrikes means you should have Raveners Gargoyles, Sky Slashers, Hormagaunts, Stock Trygons or Adrenal Fexes in front of them.

This is where you're going to have the most success with Shrikes. Staying back and shooting while not being the primary target. (Just like Warriors)

UNLESS: You take A LOT of them.



If you're looking for a fast combat unit...go with Raveners.
Fast Synapse and Assault...Trygon Prime.
Fast supporting synapse with a big footprint...those are your Shrikes.



My 8 Shrikes are always hanging around 40+ hormagaunts or 14 Raveners.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
People using the thorax swarms - you do realize that firing that stops you from firing a devourer, right? They lost the rule they used to have.

6 shots at BS4 TL is 5 hits, on average a glance against AV12. So really all you're doing is helping yourself against AV13 or 14 at very short range - against AV10 or 11 it's actually better to fire the Devs.

Is it really worth spending those points on a Flyrant?

I agree that its a "not optimal" buy, but I assume its there for anti-Knights, though he did not buy it for the Winged assasain... The only thing I'd do differant though is dropping one Hive off a Dakka'rant, and buy Toxin for the assaain, and thats just because I obsessivly buy Toxic for the LW/BS combo (and I'd change the Rending bugs to Electro to get two templates of Haywire )

I got the Shreddershards on the Assassin. Really, I sort of want to use him to jump on small squads. Like command squads. And a rending template seems tempting for that. To each thing a purpose and a purpose it must stick. If I try to make the melee small squad bully into a tank killer it won't work so well. With the Dakka Flyrants - well, if something gets stripped to a single hull point I'm just going to fly up and Electrogrub it rather than risk 12 shots that may or may not roll a glance.

Makes sense...I didn't say I'd replace the Hive with Toxic for a Good reason I agree that if you got the points, (and it is pretty cheap) buy it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I was doodling around during breakfast again...and I was looking at enhancing my "Endless Tunnel Assault" concept, by maximising the regeneration of units including upgrades....

Endless Tunnel, enhanced:

Winged Assassin, or Winged Dakka'rant Hive Commander, 250

Warrior Brood: x3, Deathspitters x2, Rending Claws x2, Cannon 120
Warrior Brood, as above 120

Tyrgon Prime 230
Tyrgon Prime 230

Total cost 950

Endless Swarm: 792
Hormagaunts, x15 Toxic : x3 360
Spinegaunts, x14 +6 Devilgaunts : x3 312
Warrior Brood, as above 120

That should total 1742.... toss in one more Devilgaunt, and done!
adding 100 to get to 1850 is a little bit of a puzzle...

Zoey Brood x2 a no brainer!....but...
Venothrope Brood x2, Thorax hive on Winged Assassin this just looks better.....
I suppose you could use a Lictor Brood? I guess it depends on what figures you own

Tacticly it looks simple to use. Just Outflank a Spinegaunt Brood(the one with the extra Devil ), Deepstrike in the Big Wormeys, Run the Hormies in an assault triangle. And use the Assassin as a "fireman". Camp the Warriors on VP points and snipe with the Cannons...

It should be hard to mess up with such a simple style of play, the only source of "worry" is placing the Tunnel Markers....

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Ummm, electroshock wounds a command squad on 2+ and ignores their armor. Shreddershards wound on 4s and only ignore armor 1/6 of the time.
I still say ESG are the tac choice, whether you're facing infantry or tanks.

I've yet to come across a SM command squad with a 5+ armour save....

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Ummm, electroshock wounds a command squad on 2+ and ignores their armor. Shreddershards wound on 4s and only ignore armor 1/6 of the time.
I still say ESG are the tac choice, whether you're facing infantry or tanks.

I've yet to come across a SM command squad with a 5+ armour save....

They're moon-lighting as guardsmen, shhh don't tell anyone.

Ah. Sneaky sneaky.

I am however considering just switching to the electroshocks for just that reason.

But the thought of a random rending (AP2!) template being dropped onto terminators/centurions etc is tempting...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ah. Sneaky sneaky.

I am however considering just switching to the electroshocks for just that reason.

But the thought of a random rending (AP2!) template being dropped onto terminators/centurions etc is tempting...

Thing is a lot of the time with a command squad or centurions if I'm in template range with my Flyrant I'll just assualt and kill them anyway.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ah. Sneaky sneaky.

I am however considering just switching to the electroshocks for just that reason.

But the thought of a random rending (AP2!) template being dropped onto terminators/centurions etc is tempting...

Thing is a lot of the time with a command squad or centurions if I'm in template range with my Flyrant I'll just assualt and kill them anyway.

Why not do both?

Template for the free chances of wounds/dead models and then assault, eh? Eh?!

Been testing this as my skyblight build. So far it has been doing fairly well. Looking to get some thoughts....

Primary:
HQ
2 x flyrant w 2tl devs

Elites:
Venomthorpe
Zoan

Troops:
2 x 10man gant units

FA:
Crone

HS
3 man biovore unit

Fort:
Skyshield

Formation
1 x flyrant 2tl devs
2 x harpy w/hvc
1 x crone
3 x 10man goyles


The bios and gants camp on the skyshield... venom under zoan behind a back leg... in most cases you can't even see the gants and even the bios to an extent.. the few things that can target them are going to give it the cover save... so rolling 2+ and 4++... I use the bios to bomb away.. I keep an objective under the SS for the gants... which allows me to use my goyles in a couple of different ways.

I've not faced a mech army yet and that tends to be where I think I'm going to have some issues... I have 20 points left over that I could use for electroshocks on 2 of the flyrants.... which I'm not yet sold on....

 ductvader wrote:
Shrikes main protect and reason for being taken actually comes from having units around it that it is supporting.

Running shrikes means you should have Raveners Gargoyles, Sky Slashers, Hormagaunts, Stock Trygons or Adrenal Fexes in front of them.

This is where you're going to have the most success with Shrikes. Staying back and shooting while not being the primary target. (Just like Warriors)

UNLESS: You take A LOT of them.

If you're looking for a fast combat unit...go with Raveners.
Fast Synapse and Assault...Trygon Prime.
Fast supporting synapse with a big footprint...those are your Shrikes.

My 8 Shrikes are always hanging around 40+ hormagaunts or 14 Raveners.

There is an argument to run 3 Shrikes with 2 Devourers + 1 BS, just like the standard warrior squad. However, if you want synapse support for anything like Adrenal fexes of HGaunts, IMO warriors are your better choice, because they can score objectives after the fexes have cleared them off. They are following the other units, so it doesn't matter if they are slow, and the 4+ armor gives them saves against basic weaponry like Bolters. Also, Venomthropes can keep up with them.

If you want synapse support for a fast unit. Like Gargoyles, Raveners, Crones, Harpies, Mawlocs, or Raveners, then Shrikes can be outfitted for CC because
1) they are either going to be a large enough squad to take some shooting, or a small enough squad that they are low on opponent target priority. Usually Flyrants are going to take most of the fire priority away from Shrikes.
2) Your fast units are going to take on the hard targets, so shrikes are good for picking off the softer ones, or throwing in with an assault already in progress.
3) Because of the 3 wounds, and the ability to do CC wound allocation shenanigans (you can change which model in base tanks wounds each imitative step), and the fearless that comes from synapse, they have good survivability in CC with softer targets.
4) The other fast units are going to either get into CC or do something like Burrow or fly off the board, so shooty Shrikes can end up being the only non-engaged target for your opponent to shoot at.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roci wrote:
HS
3 man biovore unit

Because you have extra HS slots, I would suggest you split up the biovores. That way missing on your fist scatter isn't as catastrophic, and you have the potential to spawn more spore mines.

Otherwise the list looks great. For certain matchups you might want to drop one biovore for a 2nd Zoey. That gives you a bit more chance to score additional objectives.

tag8833 wrote:

The only place Flesh hooks fall down is range. I think it is a good philosophy that if you are 10+" away from an enemy unit, you should be running instead of shooting. That way you have a better chance of getting HOW and rerolling charge distances. If your are within 6", Flesh hooks are great at shooting. It is the same reason JY prefers 2 TL-devourers on Carnifexes. You lose one turn of shooting, but gain an earlier charge possibility.

And when you do get into assault, doing 25% more attacks is worth it.

Not sure i fallow that part. 2 TL-devourers makes you lost a turn of shooting but gives earlier charge? O.o

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ah. Sneaky sneaky.

I am however considering just switching to the electroshocks for just that reason.

But the thought of a random rending (AP2!) template being dropped onto terminators/centurions etc is tempting...

Thing is a lot of the time with a command squad or centurions if I'm in template range with my Flyrant I'll just assualt and kill them anyway.

Why not do both?

Template for the free chances of wounds/dead models and then assault, eh? Eh?!

Because you want to leave 1 model standing at the end of your assault phase - so you can't be shot during his shooting phase.
Dropping the Template makes overkill more likely.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Ah. Sneaky sneaky.

I am however considering just switching to the electroshocks for just that reason.

But the thought of a random rending (AP2!) template being dropped onto terminators/centurions etc is tempting...

Thing is a lot of the time with a command squad or centurions if I'm in template range with my Flyrant I'll just assualt and kill them anyway.

Why not do both?

Template for the free chances of wounds/dead models and then assault, eh? Eh?!

Because you want to leave 1 model standing at the end of your assault phase - so you can't be shot during his shooting phase.
Dropping the Template makes overkill more likely.

What Rigeld said.

Plus because Nids aren't short of ways of dealing with infantry, I think a ant-vehicle template has more uses. Especially when Guard parking lots start turning up again. How many Russes do you think you can fit under one template.

Shreddershard is the only one I regularly use because marines like to drop on my tervigon...and he's gotten sick of it.

 ductvader wrote:
Shreddershard is the only one I regularly use because marines like to drop on my tervigon...and he's gotten sick of it.

He? That's one odd terv.... just saying.

Addaran wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

The only place Flesh hooks fall down is range. I think it is a good philosophy that if you are 10+" away from an enemy unit, you should be running instead of shooting. That way you have a better chance of getting HOW and rerolling charge distances. If your are within 6", Flesh hooks are great at shooting. It is the same reason JY prefers 2 TL-devourers on Carnifexes. You lose one turn of shooting, but gain an earlier charge possibility.

And when you do get into assault, doing 25% more attacks is worth it.

Not sure i fallow that part. 2 TL-devourers makes you lost a turn of shooting but gives earlier charge? O.o

18" range on a Carnifex that can only move 6" usually that means you aren't in range on turn 1, and so you RUN instead of shoot that turn. If you take a HVC or a STC then you are in range on turn 1 and shoot instead of run, thus you've lost distance that you would have run. That puts you D6" further away from making a charge. Also, it puts you in range of max firepower on turn 2 when you might not have been able to do that if you shot instead of ran.