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If one was to go to build an all comers list... what are the things that need to be kept in mind?

It has to have the tools for most jobs required. For example a bit of heavy weaponry for tanks (preferably AV14), a few blasts/large blasts/templates for hordes. It should also be able to do reasonably well in objective games AND KP missions.

I think it comes down to basically not spamming things endlessly (6 landraiders, 6 carnifexes etc...).

First, you need a mix of weaponry. Not knowing what your opponents will bring means you need to be able to take down horde, heavy infantry, light vehicle/transport and heavy tank.

Second, limit your own vulnerability. Anti-tank tends to have low ROF so an infantry horde cheerfully ignores the casualties. Anti-horde shots will bounce off tanks and many transports so all-mech ignores that type of incoming fire.

Third, be able to complete all three basic mission types. You need enough mobility to get troops to multiple objectives, tough enough defence to hold a base, tough enough assault to engage/capture an enemy base - and do it all with as few units as possible to limit your KP liability!!


(needless to say, #3 is the tough one... )

What army are you building? This could help get some more specific advice.

The general advise is quite helpful... as for the army I am building... Orks.

Spamming, in and of itself, does not prevent an army from being versatile.

An all-comers list have to be able to deal with;

1. AV 14.
2. Transport-spam.
3. Hordes.
4. Multiple MCs/Nobbike-style units.
5. Psychic powers.
6. Multiple Deep Strikers/Outflankers.
7. Kill point mission.
8. Objective missions.

Did I forget anything?

A fine choice!! (and I'm not just saying that cos I started my own Ork army last week, honest )

Seriously, Orks can do very well, they have one of the best anti-transport/light vehicle units in the game (lootas) and do well against all types of infantry by simply overwhelming them with attacks from your boyz.

Where they struggle is with anti-tank. Although Rokkits (in large numbers) are OK against anything up to AV13, they struggle against Land Raiders, 'liths and Russes in particular. Your best bet for this is to get power klaws up close.

I would disagree with 4 in your list. Those are precisely the units that allcomers have a hard time against because they haven't "tailored" their list for such things. The rest I do agree with though.

I agree with lukas about the 4th point, especially about the nob bikers thing.

MCs are handled by either anti MEQ weapons like plasma or concetrated anti transport high str fire power like lootas/autocannons. The weapons to combat them are always there but its the platyer that has to know when to fire them and where.

I also disagree with 5. Psychic powers. Not every army has a viable counter for psychic powers. Again it is up to the general to neutralize them before they do to much damage. Chaos Daemons/CSM/non allied IG/Orks/Crons/DE/Tau don't have built in pyschic defenses. Even normal marines don't always have a libby or allies in their lists.

In response to Steelmage's list we need the following:

1: High S attacks (9-10), preferably with AP1/Melta/etc..
2: Many attacks capable of breaking AV12 (S6-S10), being both numerous in rate of fire (Heavy/Assault 2 at least) and freely available to many models
3: High firerate ranged attacks with S4 or higher, with AP5 or better, Blasts especially welcome.
4: See 2
5: Either Psykers with WHFB style Counter-Spell wargear, or lots of ++ saves.
6: Delaying Reserves powers, Independant units able to hold their own ground without support, vehicles able to block LOS to their Rear AV.
7: Small number of units on table at any time, said units must be able to absorb casualties thanks to 3+ or better saves, or sheer weight of numbers.
8: Available Troop units, or units with Scoring ability that are compatible with 7.


OMFG doesn't that sound like the Space Marine Codex?!

dumplingman wrote:Chaos Daemons/CSM/non allied IG/Orks/Crons/DE/Tau don't have built in pyschic defenses.

DE do have the oft overlooked Archangel of Pain, which I consider a high functionality item in tourney play. Though I'll admit usually I just drop a lot of plasma cannons on the offending psychic. Lots of plasma cannons solve most problems.

Thor665 wrote: Lots of plasma cannons solve most problems.

Amen!

Needs to do well against MEq, simply because there's so many MEq armies out there :(

I concure Thor plasma cannons do solve most problems. And I also forgot about the archangel.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/06/40k-editorial-what-is-all-comers-list.html

Here is a BOLS article about it.

To me, a take-all-comers list pretty much has an answer to everything. I'm also a big fan of every unit having the ability to serve dual roles.

I would say Orks are one of the best armies out there for making All-Comers Lists. Lootas are awesome for crowd-control and wrecking light vehicles. Slugga boyz and the ungodly amount of attacks they can dish out can handle just about any kind of infantry.

As far as AV14 goes, Killa Kanz, Deff Dreads and Warbosses can really do a number on a land raider. More so on a Monolith that can only move 6 inches!

Dashofpepper wrote:To me, a take-all-comers list pretty much has an answer to everything. I'm also a big fan of every unit having the ability to serve dual roles.

The last part of this is pretty key. Duality in a unit is very good.

I haven't worried about nob bikers, well since nob bikers were the 'it'.

Since the advent of Fleeting, Land Raider-borne Assault Terminators, Nob Bikers don't scare me all that much either. I'd much prefer to see them than 180 Slugga Boyz on the other side of the table.

The way I approach 40k army list building is to distinguish between three qualities or principles that need to be balanced against each other both within units and within armies:

Flexibility
Redundancy
Synergy

A flexible unit can engage a variety of targets, although redundancy would enable it to be engage a particular type of type, and synergy would enable it to enhance other non-equivalent aspects of the list, or enhance its own abilities.

Chaos Space Marine Chosen are a good example of how these three principles blend:

They can have great flexibility by combining two Melta Guns with two Flamers with a Powerfist armed Champion. They can have great redundancy by having five of the same special weapon. They can have synergy with the Deep Strike elements of the Chaos Space Marine list by having an Icon.

Now, just because you maximize redundancy in the unit doesn't mean that the army is not flexible. If the unit of Chosen has five Melta Guns, then the rest of the list may have Flamers instead. This makes the entire list flexible, although it lessens its overall redundancy because if the Chosen are wiped out then the army will lose its anti-tank capability (supposing those were the only anti-tank weapons in the army...).

Many people maximize redundancy at the expense of flexibility and synergy, and there's where you end up with Dual-Lash, Nob-Bikers, Stelek-style bland-hammer lists. They're nice and fun until you notice that instead of Warhammer you're playing rock-scissors-paper.

But that doesn't mean a flexible list has to be a "Battleforce" list. It means that you have to consider how units can work together to maximize redundancy, how redundancy across disimilar units maximizes flexibility, and how flexibility within units maximizes an army's synergy.

When you go beyond thinking of these principles are trade-offs, and instead of a basic foundation for building strategies and tactics to implement those strategies, then you can start building great all-comers armies.