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Midway in the process of building/painting my boys, I noticed that now I have enough armor bits to make a mob of 'Ard Boys [double shoulder pads and iron gobs) if I want to... and I WANT to! I'm liking the football player look. But with only 1 allowed per army, and me being a new Orky player, I have some questions about them and their roles on the tabletop:

-Slugga or Shoota 'Ard Boys? [I still have no solid idea here]

-Footslogging mob with armor to advance under weak fire? -or armored trukk boys? [I think trukk boys, to minimize the extra cost]

-Armored assaulty? or home objective holding shooty? [could go either way here]

-Worth the cost with minimal trukk sized mob? or better in 20-30 'Ard boy mobs? [again- minimizing extra cost may outweigh 'power of numbers']

-EVER used as "screening cover" providers.. with the 'Ard Boys out front? [makes me lean back towards a big mob of 'Ard boys]

-extra cost of stikkbombs ever a good idea? [I guess stikkbomb chucka solves this Q if theyre trukkboys]


Etc. Etc. Those kinda questions. How are 'Ard Boys best, or worst used?

'Ard boyz generally aren't worth the extra cost except in some situations but fielding a model because it looks cool even if it may not be optimal is a perfectly valid way to go about things. The normal situation in which I think 'ard boyz may be OK is as a mechanized squad, preferably in a battlewagon and as slugga boyz. They can take on tougher opponents that lack lots of power weapons such as khorne berzerkers or grey wolves more effectively than normal boyz. Another way I've seen them fielded that I'm less a fan of is with grotsnik and all with cybork bodies as well to form a very very tough unit that can be deployed even in dawn of war and be effective. In this case I feel the 'eavy armour really is overkill as taking the boyz from 11 to 15 points each (36% increase) in exchange for 8% extra mitigation of ap 5 or worse wounds just isn't worth it.

You can also model all your boyz as 'ard boyz and just call them all normal boyz for purposes of playing if you like the look. Since they all look the same, perhaps all that extra armor isn't effective in improving their odds (and frankly, shoulderpads and an iron jaw should not give you as good of protection as even the flak armor imperial guardsmen wear.)

Ard boyz suck in the 'fire magnet' role (I tried it and have seen it tried), even a 4+ save won't help them against piles and piles of boltgun fire. (I mean, sure, the ard boyz get 4+ and the boyz behind get 4+, but all the enemy has to do is annihilate the ard boyz and bam, no more cover save) they are much better at the counter-charge role, suddenly you have orks that can take hits and still hit you back!

Mechanized I think they are good, even a mob of 12 isn't too bad, and if a huge mob they last a long time if forced to take no-retreat, but I'm playing with the idea of 18-19+IC in a battlewagon, the IC I have in mind? Mad Doc Grotsnic. The Mad Doc makes them almost as survivable as nobz with 'eavy armor (no, do not upgrade them to have cyborks, they don't really need it). The Mad Doc does force them to move as fast as possible to the nearest enemy (which is where I want them to go anyways) but I figure 4+ with FNP and fearless means they won't go anywhere once they get stuck in. Yes, this unit is a giant point sink, but it costs less than the mix/match nobz deathstar I normally run.

'Ard Boys are yummy. Under the right circumstances anyway.

Scenario #1: A mob of 30 'Ard Boys (shootas) with Mad Dok Grotsnik attached, placed in front of your army and stretched across its front gives you a 4+ armor, 4+ feel no pain, and probably a 4+ cover save as well depending on terrain. Bwaaaaaaahhhh-hahahaha. See people trying to pull down that unit as you flit across the board into the ranks is fun and productive. They're absolutely great for tackling big units of MEQs because of their huge survivability, although they are prone to some manipulation by your opponent due to Grotsnik's presence. However, stretched across the board as they are, you'll have a massively wide threat radius, so they'll pile into something.

Scenario #2: 18-19 'Ard Boyz in a battlewagon, with Ghazghkull or a Warboss in tow for an added powerklaw - deposited in front of MEQs to snarl and dish out pain. Tacking Mad Dok in here again makes them ridiculous.

Those are the big two. Keep in mind that different parts of an ork army are good for different things.

Regular ork boys are great for trashing MEQs, cost effective for dealing with terminator squads, and you can toss them at an MC if you don't have something more effective to do it with. When you upgrade them to 'Ard Boys they gain enormous durability, but lose their cheap cost effectiveness to throw them into the grinder to get something killed.

So! The question then becomes, "In what situations would having a 4+ armor save and increased survivability help?" That's it.

Go with 19 'ard boy sluggas with warboss, put them into a battlewagon get them into hand-to-hand!

Dashofpepper wrote:
Scenario #1: A mob of 30 'Ard Boys (shootas) with Mad Dok Grotsnik attached, placed in front of your army and stretched across its front gives you a 4+ armor, 4+ feel no pain, and probably a 4+ cover save as well depending on terrain. Bwaaaaaaahhhh-hahahaha. See people trying to pull down that unit as you flit across the board into the ranks is fun and productive. They're absolutely great for tackling big units of MEQs because of their huge survivability, although they are prone to some manipulation by your opponent due to Grotsnik's presence. However, stretched across the board as they are, you'll have a massively wide threat radius, so they'll pile into something.

I've done this a few times and found that sluggas usually perform better than shootas because grotnik forces them to run in the shooting phase until they're in assault range, and then assault, so there really isn't much of an opportunity to shoot (can only shoot if the mob is within 6" of an enemy.) I usually run it as a one-flank punch rather than a general screen, but the enemy ends up shooting at them anyway because 34 tough wounds of choppy death is pretty tough to counter.

I suppose that's how you interpret the codex. Grotsnik's rule instructs you to move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit. Moving is a specific phase; running occurs during another phase. I don't see his entry ordering you to run towards enemies.

Dashofpepper wrote:I suppose that's how you interpret the codex. Grotsnik's rule instructs you to move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit. Moving is a specific phase; running occurs during another phase. I don't see his entry ordering you to run towards enemies.

It says 'move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit,' not 'move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit in the movement phase only.' His rule says nothing about applying only to the movement phase and standing and shooting instead of running pretty clearly goes against that. By your interpretation you wouldn't have to consolidate towards the nearest enemy unit either, which is an even more cut and dry application of moving towards the nearest enemy as fast as possible. You have many good calls, but I don't think this is one of them.

I think the reason most people run his unit (in the shooting phase) is due to the FAQ...though I can see an argument for your side too Dash (and the FAQ says he even effects the transport he is riding in which I think is gak.) FAQ also has him consolidate towards the nearest enemy unit. He basically gives out the rage USR.

Edit: Well, I just looked up the rage rule, the can decide weather or not to run, but "if they run, they must run towards the nearest enemy unit" So maybe there is a case for his unit being able to shoot. (he does have a pistol)

Indeed.

Moving is not the same as running.

Dashofpepper wrote:Moving is not the same as running.

Rule Book wrote:In their Shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing, immediately moving D6..."

According to the rule book running is moving (bold emphasis mine, not rulebook's.)

Take it to YMDC, folks. Keep the thread on-topic.

Lorek wrote:Take it to YMDC, folks. Keep the thread on-topic.

fine I will.

Lets leave the mad doc out of this for a moment. 'Ard boyz are much better at killing squads without power weapons, and much better at not getting eaten by no-retreat. Big mobs of ork boyz are better at killing expensive models with power weapons (In theory anyways, a unit of 30 orks costs about as much as the TH/SS terminators it's trying to kill actually)

starbomber109 wrote:(In theory anyways, a unit of 30 orks costs about as much as the TH/SS terminators it's trying to kill actually)

Well, yeah, they may cost the same. But a group of 30 boyz with sluggas crashing into a group of terminators is going to smash them for 5 or 6 kills, and in response take 3 or 4 wounds as punishment. At 40 points per TEQ and 6 points per boy with a round 2 or 3 wipe of the entire terminator group, it's a very favorable trade, and the boyz aren't tied down indefinitely with numbers favoring them to that degree.

29 boyz = 116 attacks = 58 hits = 29 wounds = 4.833 unsaved wounds

1 nob w/ klaw = 4 attacks = 2 hits = 1.666 wounds = 0.5555 wounds

Total = 5.3888 TEQs dead

The key here being that a group of boyz will own the 400 point terminator squad with the loss of less than 60 points in boyz over the course of the combat, and still be ready to move on to another target in a couple of turns.

Ard boyz as said before are best against non power weaponed units.

Either make them slugga/choppa in BW with a nob and boss and aim them at units that arent mostly armor ignoring

or...

Make them shooty and put them in area terrain somewhere or have them advance with a mek with KFF. Ard boyz in area terrain near an objective is not pretty to take out for their points cost, the enemy basically has to dedicate their elite hand to hand units [and some armies elite hand to hand isnt elite enough] to dislodge them and even then you have a chance of wiping them out.

blaktoof wrote: Ard boyz in area terrain near an objective is not pretty to take out for their points cost, the enemy basically has to dedicate their elite hand to hand units [and some armies elite hand to hand isnt elite enough] to dislodge them and even then you have a chance of wiping them out.

Which reminds me that a big weakness of Ork mobs in 5th is getting rocked by khorne berzerkers or the like and then taking it on the chin with no retreat casualties. That 4+ save will greatly help both of those areas and definitely be worth its points so having some 'ard boyz around in an all-comers list for when you run into berzerkers or other units that dish out lots of hurt that you get armor saves from will keep you from getting steamrolled.