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Advice - Suggestions - Input ?

1850 ( 1850 ) Points - CSM Tzeentch GT Army

HQ Selections = 440 points ( 0440 )

Chaos Sorcerer ( Force Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Meltabomb )
Mark of Tzeentch and Familiar: Bolt of Change + Warptime + Wind of Chaos

Chaos Sorcerer ( Force Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Meltabomb )
Mark of Tzeentch and Familiar: Bolt of Change + Warptime + Wind of Chaos

TROOP Selections = 880 points ( 1320 )

Aspiring Champion ( Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Combi Flamer ) ( Meltabomb )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol 8x ) ( with Bolter 6x and Meltagun 2x )
Chaos Rhino Dedicated Transport ( TL Bolter )

Aspiring Champion ( Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol ) ( Combi Flamer ) ( Meltabomb )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol 8x ) ( with Bolter 6x and Meltagun 2x )
Chaos Rhino Dedicated Transport ( TL Bolter )

Aspiring Champion ( Power Fist and Bolt Pistol ) ( Combi Flamer ) ( Meltabomb )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol ) ( Bolter ) ( Icon of Tzeentch )
Chaos Space Marine ( CCW and Bolt Pistol 8x ) ( with Bolter 6x and Meltagun 2x )
Chaos Rhino Dedicated Transport ( TL Bolter )

ELITE Selection = 290 points ( 1610 )

Terminator Champs 5x ( TL Bolter and Chain Fist ) ( Pair LCs and Icon of Tzeentch ) ( Pair LCs 3x )

HEAVY SUPPORT Selection = 240 points ( 1850 )

Chaos Land Raider ( TL Heavy Bolter and Dual Sponson TL Lascannons ) ( Extra Armor and Dirge Caster )

Ahhhhhhh needs cleaned up a bit it looks better if you do something similar to this:
HQ:
Chaos sorcerer
MoT, Meltabomb, Bolt of Change, Warptime etc....

Just easier to read is all. Well first you have nothing for hordes. I would suggest some flamers in a squad. Next throw out the LR and possibly the termies. Get two Vindicators or Defilers they are much better against hordes. Last another squad of CSMs in a rhino with their flamers would do you some good.

I'm not a fan of the Sorcerers, WAY too expensive. Why not just take a Tzeentchian DP with Wings, Wind of Chaos and Warptime? 205 points for a pure wrecking ball of a unit.

SGD isn't a good choice when you have no cheap Champions to pop it from.

IoT is a so-so uprade. Against shooting you'll often have a 4+ cover save so it isn't useful. This means its best in HtH combat. Having said that, packing an Inv save isn't a bad thing.
I would seriously consider taking Power Fists on the CSMs, atleast half of them.

It looks to me that you want to put both Sorcerers and the Terminators in the Land Raider. If so, I vote against it. Its far too big of a single target and just screams "kill me!".

Champion on the Terminators as well as the small squad of 3 with an expensive Icon is a waste. If you want an Icon squad, take 5+, no Land Raider, load up on Combi Weapons and Heavy Flamers and deepstrike next to something and make a pain of yourself.

Right now, I wouldn't rank this as a very competitive list, I'm sorry.

Thanks minigun i am having trouble discerning things and didnt see the SGD. Go with what he said.

minigun762 wrote:"...I'm not a fan of the Sorcerers, WAY too expensive. Why not just take a Tzeentchian DP with Wings, Wind of Chaos and Warptime? 205 points for a pure wrecking ball of a unit..."

Run the suggested DP in other lists - wanted to include other options: dealing with TMCs for example = Warptime + Force Weapon for ID.

minigun762 wrote:"...SGD isn't a good choice when you have no cheap Champions to pop it from..."

The SGD was a quick and easy point filler from the 1750 list I use. Prefer to summon from one of the two Power Weapon Champions out from a Rhino - with a little luck maybe a Turn Two Assault. At the least in would be a Combat Cousin to the Daemon Prince. Of course, I could make a few tweaks - removing him and adding another Rhino for the thirs TROOP choice ( plus a few more points to play with... Combi Flamer on Champions ? )

minigun762 wrote:"...IoT is a so-so upgrade. Against shooting you'll often have a 4+ cover save so it isn't useful. This means its best in HtH combat. Having said that, packing an INV save isn't a bad thing. I would seriously consider taking Power Fists on the CSMs, at least half of them..."

Agree on the usefulness of IoT because of CoverHammer, and yes I wanted the INV Save mainly for HtH protection... silly TH/SS Terminators ! ( not to mention the theme of the army ). As for the Power Fists on CSM Champions - I've been noticing better results with PWs over PFs now because of Combat Resolution.

minigun762 wrote:"...It looks to me that you want to put both Sorcerers and the Terminators in the Land Raider. If so, I vote against it. Its far too big of a single target and just screams "kill me!"..."

Was planning on running the Sorcerers with the two mobile CSM units - situational: but Rhino Wall the Sorcerers for protection then have them join the units. Or for some element of fun have the Sorcerers embark the Rhinos after squad leaves and use Gift of Chaos in proximity of Close Combat.

minigun762 wrote:"...Champion on the Terminators as well as the small squad of 3 with an expensive Icon is a waste. If you want an Icon squad, take 5+, no Land Raider, load up on Combi Weapons and Heavy Flamers and deepstrike next to something and make a pain of yourself..."

Sorry - for clarity the Terminator unit is 5x strong ( CF Champion + Icon Dual Claws Champion + 3x Dual Claws Champions ). The unit, along with the non-dedicated Land Raider ( move-n-assault ), was going to be at least one element of anti-horde... 20 attacks on the Charge with the Dual LC Champions, protected by 2+ 4++ saves, then 4 attacks on the Charge with the CF Champion.

minigun762 wrote:"...Right now, I wouldn't rank this as a very competitive list, I'm sorry..."

Don't be sorry - I appreciate the comments... already considering the swap of SGD for Rhino and tweaks. At the moment I like the way the list has been running on a local gaming level - but have had only a few games against Competitive Builds - figure I have a month and a half to tweak-n-test before the first available GT Qualifier in my area.

I like what you're trying to do and I see some potential to make it work. Here are some ideas to try out maybe.

1) Think about buying a squad of Thousand Sons, 9 man strong. Give the AS Warptime and take a Warptime Sorcerer. Now you have a TMC tarpit unit that has 2 chances of insta-gibbing the big baddies. If you take MoT on the Sorcerer, maybe give him Wind of Chaos as well for all purpose killing. The Familar and 3rd power are wasted 99% of the time. This is all if you want to keep the Sorcerers, I still think a Tzeentch DP would be your best TMC killer. Might not be insta-killing but you're damn safe against their attacks.
The 3rd option is to gear up your CSMs for killing TMC, take the Power Fist and 2 Meltaguns and hope the 5++ save buys you a few extra turns of Fisting goodness. This would free up your HQs to focus on straight anti-infantry.

2) I think alot of people are drawn to the all Champion Terminator squad but I think its too expensive for what it does. If it was me I'd take maybe 2 dual Claw Terminators, 2 normal Terminators (maybe with a Combi) and a Heavy Flamer/Chain Fist Termniator. Overall I think the squad will kill about the same while being alot cheaper.

3) Instead of the SGD, have you considered some armored firepower? Maybe 1-2 Defilers or Vindicators with D. Possession.

Sorc: I’m not sure crazy expensive Sorcs will be that useful.
BoC is pretty underwhelming power. GoC is fun, but WarpTime won’t be helping each too much, and no variety?

Greater Daemon: no cheap entry point and lack of other MCs.

CSM: They look ok, (keeping to theme with IoT, so I won't touch on it). But I think some diversification with the special weapons would help a lot.
I can understand not getting TS, but it would do heaps for the theme if soft scores are important. Cause most people will associate Tzeentch with those Dust Buckets.

Termies: The termies in a LR are hit or miss. I think there are far too bloated and along with the HQ’s, cost so much you can fill out your other heavies with the points saved.

@Minigun762:
I second your points.

I think the Sorcerers are a good idea, but you may want to rethink how you're going to equip them. I also think minigun762 has a good idea with the Thousand Suns, with Warptime and those AP3 Bolters they're practically designed to hunt big gribblies.

Sorcerer-wise you might consider a Daemonic Steed, Familiar, Warptime, Doombolt, and Wind of Chaos. This will give you an extra attack for six on the charge, and the 18" charge range will give you a chance to start up your Warptime without interference from the Shadow in the Warp. Maybe even a Plasma Pistol if you're planning on a S7 AP2 shot as you close for the kill, since Warptime make the chance of a 1 pretty miniscule. You get a 12" hop over intervening small gribblies, and then attack. The six attacks and Wind of Chaos will be useful if you encounter any swarms that need kicking. Doombolt is actually pretty good with Warptime (re-roll 2+ to hit, re-roll 4+ to wound T4, AP3) and the 18" is surprisingly useful.

Ditch the Terminators and take a unit or two of Raptors.

Made a few more tweaks - the revised list has been posted at top. As for the Sorcerers... yes they are a bit pricey but I wanted to stay with a theme for this list. The army started as a Pre Heresy Event at the local GW - and just kinda grew from there. I like to think of the list as more of a Pre Rubric Thousand Sons army - a transition from Prospero into the Realms of Chaos ( hence no Obliterators, Daemon Princes, Defilers, Etc ).

As for appearance and theme:

Sorcerers as HQ choices of course.

All CSM models are a combination of Dark Angels Robed bodies ( old and new ) with CSM add-ons ( backpacks, etc ). The Power Armor has been painted Red ( as Loyalist Thousand Sons ) and robes are Grey. The Terminators have a matching color scheme.

The vehicles are all Old School - the original OOP Rhinos and OOP Land Raider. The army on a larger point level also includes two OOP Predators and an OOP Vindicator ( Land Raider then becomes a Dedicated Transport )

The Greater Daemon is fine in my book. Read my article. That being out of the way, you're breaking a personal standard of mine for CSM: don't take it unless you need it. As it is now, if a squad gets popped early you're going to be vastly outnumbered by almost anything (which is never fun). Even then, you have to kill stuff early on to make it where you're anywhere near equal. I can just give the general advice of dropping some "fluffy" upgrades and squeezing another squad in there.

Original Post List?
Sorc: just pick two, seriously.
IMO, drop familiar and Bolt of Change. The opportunity cost of BoC is just too great to be a serious consideration IMO.
Cookie Cutter HQ may alter soft scores if that exists in the GT in your area.

I know it’s a Tzeentch list, but sort of weird to not see actual Dust Buckets, but it’s understandable.

In general power weapons are really meh.
The Cookie Cutter troops like HQ.
They all look decent though. YMMV with IoT, but you are keeping to theme.

Termies: Big points dumps with not much in return.
LR: looks ok, but in general Termies + LR is meh in the CSM army.

Sanctjud wrote:"...I know it’s a Tzeentch list, but sort of weird to not see actual Dust Buckets, but it’s understandable..."

Right, pre-rubric Thousand Sons

If I can get the models done in time then, the Terminators and Land Raider will get removed from the list and replaced with two more CSM units as above ( one more PW Champion and one more PF Champion ... some flexibility in special weapons like Plasmaguns and Flamers ) - plus both units with Rhino Transports... will have to tweak the Sorcerers at that point a bit ( dropping Familiars and BoC from each ).

Don't take Champs, kind of a waste of points. Although for filler I guess it's ok.

And yeah the Sorcs are really expensive. Maybe you should take two different Sorcs.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Don't take Champs, kind of a waste of points. Although for filler I guess it's ok. And yeah the Sorcs are really expensive. Maybe you should take two different Sorcs.

Toyed with the idea of dropping the 5x Champ upgrade on Terminators, plus removing Armor from LR ... giving me points to buy both Sorcerers a Disc of Tzeentch ( avoiding JotWW ... aack ! ) and having them join together to form an HQ unit. Use the Land Raider to screen them into position, then unleash with dual WarpWinds and Assault.

My issue with sorcs w/ wings or mounts; instadeath. A failed MG shot will knock out a lone sorc/lord out in one hit.

Otherwise, love the list. I'm a HUGE fan of sorcerers (lash sorcerers anyway) in rhinos. They die much less than a DP, just as functional, and they come with 9 disposible wounds. Whats not to love?