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So while looking over a copy of the upcoming Tyranid Codex I noticed something. The Hive Tyrant is not an IC, but the Tyrant Guard (who are an Infantry unit) have a special rule allowing a Hive Tyrant to attach "exactly as if it were an Independant Character"

However, nothing changes the fact that you are attaching a Monstrous Creature, to a non Monstrous Creature unit, and thus the Hive Tyrant would still be able to be singled out from his guard with shooting attacks (Page 49 of the core rulebook).

Added to the fact that the Tyrant Guard are no longer a Retinue and thus, the Hive Tyrant can be singled out in melee combat, and you have a "guardian" type of unit which probably could not get any worse at it's job than it is now.

I get the feeling the Hive Tyrant wasn't meant to be able to be picked out with ranged attacks from the Tyrant Guard, but that's most certainly the RAW situation we are left with.

it might be a set up for 6th ed thats one thing as i noticed somethings about not getting cover saves or armor saves in close combat because a setain type of weapon (dont remember which) but main point is, you dont get cover saves in close combat period.

I'm sorry, shinyhelmetman?

Could you elaborate a bit on that, and how it applies to the stuation described in the OP?

Drunkspleen wrote:So while looking over a copy of the upcoming Tyranid Codex I noticed something. The Hive Tyrant is not an IC, but the Tyrant Guard (who are an Infantry unit) have a special rule allowing a Hive Tyrant to attach "exactly as if it were an Independant Character"

However, nothing changes the fact that you are attaching a Monstrous Creature, to a non Monstrous Creature unit, and thus the Hive Tyrant would still be able to be singled out from his guard with shooting attacks (Page 49 of the core rulebook).

Added to the fact that the Tyrant Guard are no longer a Retinue and thus, the Hive Tyrant can be singled out in melee combat, and you have a "guardian" type of unit which probably could not get any worse at it's job than it is now.

I get the feeling the Hive Tyrant wasn't meant to be able to be picked out with ranged attacks from the Tyrant Guard, but that's most certainly the RAW situation we are left with.

Do the Tyrant Guard have a rule similar to Shieldwall? If not, then yeah, the Tyrant Guard do a shade less than sweet feth all.

Please please please have the shieldwall special rule!

Lukus83 wrote:Please please please have the shieldwall special rule!

Take it for what it's worth, but my translation has Shield Wall.

-Yad

They have a new version of Shieldwall, which no longer mentions the anything about MCs.

Actually they have the shieldwall rule in the new dex, but that rule only states that a single hive tyrant may join them as if it were an IC and that a unit with a tyrant can never go to ground.
Hence the OP is right:
TMC-IC in a unit may be shot at and may be seperatley attacked in CC.
Thats one of the things i always state when i talk about the new army being playable but the new dex itself is really bad designed (with lots of things that don't seem right).

shadowtyrant wrote:Actually they have the shieldwall rule in the new dex, but that rule only states that a single hive tyrant may join them as if it were an IC and that a unit with a tyrant can never go to ground.
Hence the OP is right:
TMC-IC in a unit may be shot at and may be seperatley attacked in CC.
Thats one of the things i always state when i talk about the new army being playable but the new dex itself is really bad designed (with lots of things that don't seem right).

while i agree that the tyrant can be singled out in close combat, i don't think you can shoot at it while in the tyrant guard squad. the rule says:

"a single hive tyrant (including a swarmlord) may join a unit of tyrant guard EXACTLY as if it were an independent character." my emphasis

since it's EXACTLY like an independent character, it can't be singled out in shooting but can in close combat.

@warboss:

While I think you're interpretation is most likely what the intention was, there are going to be people who point out the rules on page 49 of the main rules to support a different opinion.

Those people would contend that the allowance for the Tyrant to join the unit "as if" he were an IC is just there to allow the Tyrant to join at all; without this allowance, the Tyrant would not be able to join any unit.

I would think in this case the codex states which set of rulebook rules to apply: MC v. IC. In this case it is IC. Also, the MC would not gain a cover save but since it is a unit, it cannot be picked out.

Overall, they are slightly worse but you can impact them with shooting, just hit it will a lot of shots. It will have to make some saves, every 4th one for a full unit. They might roll some ones!

Homer

Saldiven wrote:@warboss:

While I think you're interpretation is most likely what the intention was, there are going to be people who point out the rules on page 49 of the main rules to support a different opinion.

Those people would contend that the allowance for the Tyrant to join the unit "as if" he were an IC is just there to allow the Tyrant to join at all; without this allowance, the Tyrant would not be able to join any unit.

agreed, it's not explicit but inferred. i suspect the same people that questioned the force org slot use of SW wolfguard "count as troops" in a grimnar army will have a problem with this too. the way i see it, if RAW is unclear you look at FAQs and previous versions of the same thing. tyrant guard have always "hid" tyrants since they were invented in 3rd edition and have zero utility if they can't screen them from shooting. if you can single out a tyrant in every aspect while he is with his guard, what use are they? seriously... i can't think of a single reason to take them.

Homer S wrote:I would think in this case the codex states which set of rulebook rules to apply: MC v. IC. In this case it is IC. Also, the MC would not gain a cover save but since it is a unit, it cannot be picked out.

Then, if it is no longer a MC, does it get MTC and 2d6 armor pen?



Why can it not be both?
Unfortunately.

There is nothing stopping you from being an IC *and* an MC - so it is an IC in order to join the unit, but still counts as an MC.

A tyrant joins the unit as if it were a IC, then where is the problem? If that were the case, just go along like it used to be where you have to chip the little bastards down before getting to the big daddy. So it has a flunky wording, it'll probably be FAQ'd somewhere down the road but until then go with what makes the most sense, not what can be twisted out of context for your benefit.

Because MCs can be picked out unless a rule actually prevents it.

kirsanth wrote:Because MCs can be picked out unless a rule actually prevents it.

read it very closely. It says the Tyrant may join exactly as if he was an IC. Now, let's thumb through the rulebook to the IC page. Page 49, shooting at IC. "In the heat of battle it is often hard to distinguish individuals, and even harder to pick them out as specific targets. IC that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets. If the unit they have joined is hit, the controlling player can choose to allocate hits against the characters just like the other members of the unit.

Now you may say "IC that are monstrous creatures can always be picked out as normal" but does the Tyrant actually have IC in their rule statline? If not, for joining a unit for purposes of protection that is the role of the Tyrant Guard, he loses the ability to be picked out because of being a MC.

I understand that.
But since it is joined "exactly as if" it were IC, that would indicate that the downsides of the join are there as much as the good sides.
Not "Partly as if".

Do not get me wrong -- I play Tyranids only, I just have a hard time reading that as a proper exception.

I'd honestly give it to the Nid player as it makes the most sense. Honestly, I'm sure it will be FAQ'd...just hopefully not 6 pages worth

Why not 6 pages or more?
It seems GW needs to get more pages in to actually get to answering the questions we want answered...

Sanctjud wrote:Why not 6 pages or more?
It seems GW needs to get more pages in to actually get to answering the questions we want answered...

they wouldn't need to print a long sentance as a question and/or a short paragraph as an answer if they actually included the 3-10 words that would address these types of problems IN the codex.

Sanctjud wrote:Why not 6 pages or more?
It seems GW needs to get more pages in to actually get to answering the questions we want answered...

I'm currently at 4. Still got more to do. Stay tuned for details

What part of the IC rule causes MCs to lose MC status?

Hive Tyrant can join Tyrant Guard units as an IC. --> associated benefits

IC rules don't take away other special rule classifications except for Move Through Cover; Shrike still moves as jump infantry and Skulltaker still enters play by Daemonic Assault. MCs are still MCs.

Drunkspleen wrote:So while looking over a copy of the upcoming Tyranid Codex I noticed something. The Hive Tyrant is not an IC, but the Tyrant Guard (who are an Infantry unit) have a special rule allowing a Hive Tyrant to attach "exactly as if it were an Independant Character"

However, nothing changes the fact that you are attaching a Monstrous Creature, to a non Monstrous Creature unit, and thus the Hive Tyrant would still be able to be singled out from his guard with shooting attacks (Page 49 of the core rulebook).

Added to the fact that the Tyrant Guard are no longer a Retinue and thus, the Hive Tyrant can be singled out in melee combat, and you have a "guardian" type of unit which probably could not get any worse at it's job than it is now.

I get the feeling the Hive Tyrant wasn't meant to be able to be picked out with ranged attacks from the Tyrant Guard, but that's most certainly the RAW situation we are left with.

Pretty much what has happened, things have not been clearly defined in this codex it seems, and when the codex is widely released there will be many of these inconsistencies. The 4th edition codex seems to be much better written rules wise, there are arguments starting on what constitutes special close combat weapons (bonesword and lashwhips and scything talons and/or scything talons and rending weapons), and there will be a few more questions like this. We won't get a FAQ until months down the line, if we are lucky, and they will not actually answer Frequently Asked Questions.

If i can paraphrase Kanye West, Games Workshop doesn't care about gamers.

But yes looking at the Shieldwall rule it looks as if the Tyrant can join the Tyrant Guard as if it was and IC, which does absolutely nothing because they can still be picked out because of the actual rules in the BRB.

sourclams wrote:What part of the IC rule causes MCs to lose MC status?

Hive Tyrant can join Tyrant Guard units as an IC. --> associated benefits

IC rules don't take away other special rule classifications except for Move Through Cover; Shrike still moves as jump infantry and Skulltaker still enters play by Daemonic Assault. MCs are still MCs.

don't IC and MC both grant move through cover?

sourclams wrote:What part of the IC rule causes MCs to lose MC status?

Hive Tyrant can join Tyrant Guard units as an IC. --> associated benefits

IC rules don't take away other special rule classifications except for Move Through Cover; Shrike still moves as jump infantry and Skulltaker still enters play by Daemonic Assault. MCs are still MCs.

What associated benefits are received by having an MC attached to a unit as an IC?

BTW, page 51 of the BRB does not state that they can always be targetted. It just says they must be obscured at least 50% to claim cover.

Homer

The problem arises that they JOIN EXACTLY like an IC, it says nothing (if this is the correct translation) that the MC is treated like an IC in ANY other way, it is just that they may join the squad, nothing more.

Honestly, if you do have to go through the dudes first, then ill fire blast weapons at you and watch you squirm under than just as hard and I can dedicate my lascannons and other one shot weapons to your carnifexes, tervigons, and trygons.

Either way, It becomes a waste of points because if I really have to go through the dudes to get to the tyrant, he is still going down, he is just using up my medusa shots =/

Guard are a waste anyways because the blast weapons that i would should at a tyrant/guard squad just become a better target than firing my blast to hit a carni or some other MC only once. If I fire on your squad, I really get to do some damage all around and since he joines as a IC, I get 2 killpoints as well for doing this.

Anyways, the wording in this guy's translation just lets the tyrant join as an IC, not be treated like one because if he does, then he loses all abilities of being a MC IMO.

Homer S wrote:BTW, page 51 of the BRB does not state that they can always be targetted. It just says they must be obscured at least 50% to claim cover.

Homer

No, but page 49 does.

Independent characters that are monstrous creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures or a unit with special rules that offer them protection.

Tyrant Guard are neither Monstrous Creature, nor do they have a rule negating this one, so they are useless.

Actually nothin g on page 51 states that an MC can always be shot at - I wonder if this is a 4th ed hangover we all have in our heads?