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Lets turn this problem on it's side a little bit. Can the Hive Tyrant leave a squad of Hive Guard? I'm certain if this can be answered we will have our answer to the previous question.

I don't believe it can.

Drunkspleen wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:There is no rule (that I know of) in the BRB that states that to be the case, so that doesn't really fly that well RAI or RAW since there's no rule to be interpereted as such.

My thoughts exactly. Excluding the rule for MC that are also IC, there are no BRB rules that allow you to target separate models within a complex unit.

but the IC rules for joining units list very specific things that is involved in that joining process, none of which is the loss of the ability to target the IC as a standalone unit, that is why you still can (unless the later IC rules also apply as they do with most ICs).

For beslubbering grot's sake...it's not an IC, so you cannot use the rules for if it was one! You can't default to using them just because there's nothing in the BRB concerning what exactly a Tyrant and his Guard is (which is a complex unit, not an IC joining a unit).

You can't keep going back to the IC rules because he is not an IC.

Sirslamb wrote:Lets turn this problem on it's side a little bit. Can the Hive Tyrant leave a squad of Hive Guard? I'm certain if this can be answered we will have our answer to the previous question.

No, it cannot. It can only join.

Gwar! wrote:

Sirslamb wrote:Lets turn this problem on it's side a little bit. Can the Hive Tyrant leave a squad of Hive Guard? I'm certain if this can be answered we will have our answer to the previous question.

No, it cannot. It can only join.

Then I would believe that would remove any sort of Classifcation of IC status on the HT, anyone up for Fish and Chips?

Darth Bob wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:There is no rule (that I know of) in the BRB that states that to be the case, so that doesn't really fly that well RAI or RAW since there's no rule to be interpereted as such.

My thoughts exactly. Excluding the rule for MC that are also IC, there are no BRB rules that allow you to target separate models within a complex unit.

but the IC rules for joining units list very specific things that is involved in that joining process, none of which is the loss of the ability to target the IC as a standalone unit, that is why you still can (unless the later IC rules also apply as they do with most ICs).

For beslubbering grot's sake...it's not an IC, so you cannot use the rules for if it was one! You can't default to using them just because there's nothing in the BRB concerning what exactly a Tyrant and his Guard is (which is a complex unit, not an IC joining a unit).

You can't keep going back to the IC rules because he is not an IC.

I'm not saying the IC rules have to apply, I'm saying without applying the IC rules, there is no rule which the Tyrant is following which says "you can no longer target the tyrant seperately once it joines the Tyrant Guard unit", which is why the fact that you can normally target them seperately never changes.

Lets assume the guard works like we think it's meant to work; not being able to single out the HT. I assume the Hive Tyrant is still an MC.

What if a unit of 1 Hive Tyrant and 1 Hive Guard is on the table. The Hive Guard is in area terrain, but the MC HT is almost fully visible. Does the unit get a cover save?

No, the Ordo Jervisium comes and takes you on "holiday".

I would say that the whole unit benefits from the save.

What is allowing you can pick the tyrant out of the unit?

The Genral Consensus (while still debated) is that the Tyrant does not have IC status as it cannot leave a unit of Hive guard once it joins, as the provision for the HT is that it is an IC for joining, therefore it would not be able to leave. So if it were an IC while joined with the Hive Guard it would be able to leave. So unless there is a tenant that Im missing. I am still unsure how a HT that is not an IC (Even for the purposes for joining a unit of Hive guard) Can be picked out by shooting.

Drunkspleen wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:There is no rule (that I know of) in the BRB that states that to be the case, so that doesn't really fly that well RAI or RAW since there's no rule to be interpereted as such.

My thoughts exactly. Excluding the rule for MC that are also IC, there are no BRB rules that allow you to target separate models within a complex unit.

but the IC rules for joining units list very specific things that is involved in that joining process, none of which is the loss of the ability to target the IC as a standalone unit, that is why you still can (unless the later IC rules also apply as they do with most ICs).

But again, the HT is not an IC, so it doesn't follow any of those rules beyond being able to join a HG unit. For example, as another poster pointed out, once joined, unlike an IC, the HT cannot leave the unit.

He (HT) is not an IC
He is an MC
He can join the TG
He can not disjoin/unattach
He can not be picked out by shooting if joined
He loses MTC unless TG has MTC
He and the TG can not go to ground
He does not get cover unless 50% of his body is behind cover

Correct where wrong with Pg # and reference.
Add to as necessary


If GW were serious, really serious about creating a playable, concrete set of rules, they would 'hire' a bunch of dakkas on as play testers to find these problems and correct them prior to publication. I am sure having their name in the credits is more then enough payment for this service.

As long as 50% of the unit is in cover, the entire unit will get a cover save. So as long as one HG is in cover, the HT will benefit from a cover save.

Gwar! wrote:

Homer S wrote:BTW, page 51 of the BRB does not state that they can always be targetted. It just says they must be obscured at least 50% to claim cover.

Homer

No, but page 49 does.

Independent characters that are monstrous creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures or a unit with special rules that offer them protection.

Tyrant Guard are neither Monstrous Creature, nor do they have a rule negating this one, so they are useless.

OOPS! Gwar, as usual, you have it by the sensitive bits now. Since TG are missing this part of the protective rule, they are nearly useless.

HOmer

HOmer, what we have been discussing in the past 2 pages is that HT may join a HG unit "exactly as if" it was an IC. That does not infer that the HT "is" an IC. If it is not a IC then pg 49 does not apply.

well on the PLUS side tyrant guard can get the berserk bonuses easier if the tyrant can be picked out

It is not an IC, but uses the IC rules for joining a unit.
OK.
Why can it not be picked out?
Because it has joined a unit exactly like it was an IC.
Why can it be picked out?
Because it has joined a unit exactly like it was an IC.



Why does furious charge work with counter-attack?
Because counter-attack works exactly as if the unit was assaulting.
Why does furious charge not work with counter-attack?
Because counter-attack works exactly as if the unit was assaulting.

I think that summarizes my issue, but I am still uncertain.
Editing to add:
I think the unable to leave bit leans me more towards first part of my examples. Which I think is funny.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Err. . . wait.

At least for the Swarmlord (although probably with the Hive Tyrant) would joining not actually make the Tyrant Guard a retinue and helping resolve this?
As retinues do not require an Independent Character . . . just a character.

It cant be picked out as it is part of the unit - and there are no rules stating you can pick out individual members of a unit, except when that member is an MC AND an IC.

Once it is joined to the unit it is exactly that - joined to a unit.

Homer S wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Homer S wrote:BTW, page 51 of the BRB does not state that they can always be targetted. It just says they must be obscured at least 50% to claim cover.

Homer

No, but page 49 does.

Independent characters that are monstrous creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures or a unit with special rules that offer them protection.

Tyrant Guard are neither Monstrous Creature, nor do they have a rule negating this one, so they are useless.

OOPS! Gwar, as usual, you have it by the sensitive bits now. Since TG are missing this part of the protective rule, they are nearly useless.

HOmer

Might I suggest actually reading the last 3 pages? Kthxbai.

Drunkspleen wrote:I'm not saying the IC rules have to apply, I'm saying without applying the IC rules, there is no rule which the Tyrant is following which says "you can no longer target the tyrant seperately once it joines the Tyrant Guard unit", which is why the fact that you can normally target them seperately never changes.

Yes there is...oh my god. It says there clear as day, under the rule "Shield Wall", that the Hive Tyrant may join the unit of Guard. He is thereby becoming a part of the unit. You can't say "oh I'm going to target that Tactical Marine with the lascannon". Why? Because he is part of the unit.

I think this concept has been beaten to death with a stick. Then beat some more. Most things are pointing to the fact that he is indeed protected, but we cannot get a 100% confirmation until GW comes out with an official FAQ. Until then, however, I will be going with what logic, the rules as written in the book, common understanding of proper english, and Gwar's FAQ tells me: The Tyrant Guard give protection to the Tyrant from being singled out in Assault and Shooting.

So the assumption then is that the Shield Wall rule removes the Tyrant/Swarmlord's MC status for purposes of being shot at or that it never gains IC status?

Homer

Homer - no, that is not the assumption. the actual rule is that the HT joins "as if" an IC, but never becomes an IC. As such the rule about an IC MC still being able to be picked out *never comes into play*

Homer S wrote:So the assumption then is that the Shield Wall rule removes the Tyrant/Swarmlord's MC status for purposes of being shot at or that it never gains IC status?

Homer

It never gains IC status but still becomes part of the unit. There is absolutely nothing aluding to the fact that it could lose its MC status.

kirsanth wrote:
Err. . . wait.

At least for the Swarmlord (although probably with the Hive Tyrant) would joining not actually make the Tyrant Guard a retinue and helping resolve this?
As retinues do not require an Independent Character . . . just a character.

I don't know Kirsanth. All I know is this is making my head hurt...hmmm maybe GW's poorly written rules cause cancer...I mean everything else does. Anyone else feeling up for a class action suit

Because of GW wording, an argument can, and has been, made that Tyrant Guard allows a Tyrant to join them as a unit but does not allow the Tyrant to become an IC (and in my opinion the effect is that the Guard become a retinue for the Tyrant).

An argument can, and has been, made that the Tyrant Guard allows a Tyrant to join them as a unit, but the Tyrant has to follow all of the rules of and IC even though the model never becomes and IC. This effectively makes the Guard totally useless as you can pick out ICs that are MCs in shooting, but would allow the Tyrant to be also picked out as an IC in melee. Being picked out in melee I do not have a problem with tbh, its the shooting where the problem lies.

Both in my opinion have valid arguments behind them.

How should it be played in my opinion? Play it so that the Tyrant Guard are not a useless model and treat the Tyrant as allowed to join the unit, (treating them as a retinue) but doesn't have to follow the IC rules. Play it this way until GW hopefully comes out with a confirmation of this when they have to FAQ this codex.

Maxus wrote:
An argument can, and has been, made that the Tyrant Guard allows a Tyrant to join them as a unit, but the Tyrant has to follow all of the rules of and IC even though the model never becomes and IC.

Sorry, but I fail to see the validity in that argument. You're saying it has to follow the rules for something that it is not. That is complete fallacy.

It does follow the IC rules for joining a unit. It is not hard to see why it would use those rules for remaining in them.
If it does not, then the rules for retinue should apply. This could actually result in the MC becoming an IC.

kirsanth wrote:It does follow the IC rules for joining a unit. It is not hard to see why it would use those rules for remaining in them.
If it does not, then the rules for retinue should apply. This could actually result in the MC becoming an IC.

Sorry, but I've already explained why this is untrue, and I don't feel like repeating myself another time.

Edit: If we're suddenly calling it a retinue now, it's not targetable regardless.

You have stated why you think it is untrue.

I am not trying to debate it but if that is the case, then the Tyrant Guard are indeed falling into the realm of retinue.

kirsanth wrote:You have stated why you think it is untrue.

I am not trying to debate it but if that is the case, then the Tyrant Guard are indeed falling into the realm of retinue.

Alright, but even if it is a retinue, he's still not targetable.

They're not a Retinue, because he's not an IC. They're just a unit. He's the serge, they're the troops.

Darth Bob wrote:Alright, but even if it is a retinue, he's still not targetable.

Correct, as that would make the MC an upgrade character. The odd part that I was trying to point out (apparently unsuccessfully) is that if the Tyrant Guard all die, the MC actually becomes an IC.

Which allows it to join with Carnifex, et al.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aduro wrote:They're not a Retinue, because he's not an IC. They're just a unit. He's the serge, they're the troops.

False.
Retinues do not require an Independent Character.