Ravenwing bike squad: special weapons?

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**Lord Rogukiel**

I have recently bought a ravenwing bike squad for Dark Angels and am hesitating whether to have special weapons and if so which? I am allowed two weapons of the traditional 3 special weapons: flamer, melta gun and plasma gun.

I welcome all advice

Lord Rogukiel

**wuestenfux**

Well, my RW Bike squadron has 2 meltas.
If you need that tank popped then there is nothing better than meltas.
The Sergeant has melta bombs.

**Lord Rogukiel**

Considering the points cost of the squad, wouldn't 2 meltas AND meltabombs be a bit excessive. I mean that's 25 points that could possibly go elsewhere.

I was thinking of 1 melta...

**Sanctjud**

All of the special weapons function really well on bikers.
It ends up being a personal taste issue.
In most cases flamers and meltas benefit more than plasma.

The speed means better flamer template positions.
The speed means more 2D6 range for the meltas.
Plasma guns do gain a speedy relentless platform, but those who are risk averse shy away from them, but plasmas are a nice compliment to the TL bolters.

**labmouse42**

Sanctjud really nailed it on the head there.
I would say it depends on what you are planning on using your bike squad for, and what the rest of your army looks like.

If you are going to use them as tank-hunters, then melta guns are the way to go.
If you are looking for extra fire support against horde, then flamers are good.
If you want to support your troops vs MEQ, plasma is what you want.

**Lord Rogukiel**

So you think a flamer and melta would be a good choice. I replace melta bombs (current choice) by the flamer and buy a melta to take care of tanks?

**Sanctjud**

I wouldn't recommend mixing weapons.
Ravenwing needs specilization rather than diversifiction based on the way the army plays.

It's one of those armies that does not really bend to the player...rather the player bends to the army. (at least that's how I see it.)

So getting a pair of whatever is important for them. Getting a pair makes it four times better at their given job.

**Lord Rogukiel**

ok thanks. I'll probably get some melta guns then.

**Ringarin**

I go with fast armys that hit hard. That generally means I lack anti tank ability. I use my ravenwing for that. Bikers with 2 meltas and attack bike with melta. Melta bombs as well. If you don't destroy them with shooting you go hand to hand and finish the task. It costs a bit but vehicles don't survive it for long.

**Ian Sturrock**

Specialisation -- definitely.

I like 2 x meltas for tankhunting, or 2 x plasmas on the squad that you give Sammael's apothecary to. 2 x flamers can be risky, since RW are generally a bit weak at close combat, but if you pick your fights carefully, it can certainly work.

**Sir Motor**

1.Put on table
2.Scout Move
3.Normal Move
4.BOOOM! DIE POOR TANKS!

I like this style.
So I use melta.

**Sanctjud**

It only works well if you go first.
Anytime something relies on this sole situation can go horribly wrong.

In general it's a one trick pony.
You do need to hit hard and fast or else lose momentum, which is where the Deathwing come into play...literally.

**Ringarin**

There are a few options for fielding the ravenwing if you don't go first.

The first is to lose a turn of movement by placing them behind terrain so they can't be shot at. Use your scout move for this.

Second is putting them in reserves and flanking with them.

If they are in the open on turn one they will get shot at. Sometimes they survive, sometimes not. They draw fire at the very least. I'd say turbo boost as your scout move, but ravenwing don't get that just regular marines.

**Sanctjud**

Well, Seizing occurs after Scout moves, so that screws you no matter what.
You know before hand who will go first/second 5/6 of the time usually.

So you have to decide what you want in reserve and how before a seize, so no matter what that risk is present, you can't plan for that particular event if you plan on committing.

In which case if you are forced to deploy defensively, all reserves is not a 'I win' button (unlike other mech lists).

**Sir Motor**

Sanctjud wrote:It only works well if you go first.
Anytime something relies on this sole situation can go horribly wrong.

In general it's a one trick pony.
You do need to hit hard and fast or else lose momentum, which is where the Deathwing come into play...literally.

Oh yeah.
Its only for "I FIRST YEHAAAA!"
So,you better try to hide something from super fire power(anything can kill bike at once) always.

**Ringarin**

If you don't get first turn the game is decided fast usually. Not that it isn't fun, but it's one of those things where it either goes really good for you or really bad for you.

I fielded all deathwing and ravenwing once. Didn't get first turn and it was a very close game. A few more tries and I probably could have figured out a good way to hide my bikes.

It really is an issue of you have to waste a large part of turn one to get into a better position. It doesn't mean you can't win, just that you hit them on turn 2 or 3 instead of 1 or 2.

But back to the first post question. The meltas are good and you can put them in reserve so that you start up close and can get some good shots right away. They can't be shot at either.

It's a thing of use. If you go flamers then go after enemies in cover. If you go plasmas turbo boost over to the target for the invulnerable save and then shoot. Every weapon in there has its use it's just a matter of what task do you need them to do? It's usually a lack of anti tank that you take them for. They aren't assault troops and there are cheaper options for shooting units.

**Sanctjud**

COVER SAVE FOR TURBO BOOSTING.
Stop living in 4th ed

Inv saves and Cover saves are very different things.

In general, Meltas are a 'default' weapon. I think of them as all-comer weapons.
Ravenwing crack open tanks, Deathwing cleans up the dudes that come out.
It could be the other way around if you had plasmas or flamers, but I think the above works best.

**Lord Rogukiel**

So everyone agrees that meltas are the best weapon choices. What about the other two choices. Are they worth anything at all or are they just there for the options?

**Sanctjud**

Flamers are pretty limiting, but devestating on bikes.
Though the problem is the lack of stuff to Tank Shock or bunch up the enemy and not that much reliable transport busting than bikers as Termies IMO are the Anti-infantry role first and foremost.

Plasma is a flexible weapon, but it just doesn't seem to mesh that well with low model count units that are pretty specialized themselves in terms of application on the table.

Basically:

*Melta Bikers, have Termies shoot the occupants.
*Termies on Anti-tank (asscannon/CML), have bikers do anti-infantry (flamer/plasma and TLBolters)
*Plasma Bikers is as flexible as the Termies, so you essentially pick which ever for which ever job you are based on positioning...less forgiving if judging distances is not your thing.

As said, all of them 'work', be each person prefers one over another based on how they use the list.

**Ringarin**

I'd say they are mostly there for people who would complain if there was only the option of a melta and not all three.

Flamers can help. You get up next to enemy snipers in cover and flame them so they can't use their cover.

Plasma is good anti troop and lets you get in real close to rapid fire.

The limitations of the melta and flamer and gotten around by the speed of the bikers. The limitation being short range.

Flamers are good when you can get close enough to use them, but they aren't anti vehicle. People usually lack anti vehicle, not anti troop. Hence the meltas on bikes.

**Kingsley**

Bikers don't really need flamers, as they have Relentless twin-linked bolters for anti-infantry. I'd go with melta or plasma, but probably melta.

**Lord Rogukiel**

Ok meltas for the bikes then. thanks all

**Sanctjud**

@Fetterkey:
Like Ringarin said, a flamer does seal the deal vs. targets in cover and hordes, when some bolter fire is not enough.
In alot of cases, one won't have enough turns to kite something soley relying on TL bolters to thin a horde. Flamers allow you maximum carnage in a minimum amount of time in a Anti-infantry capacity.

All of the special weapons have a place.

But, yea, flamers will not be in the majority of the weapons used by bikers...that would be the meltas as Lord Rogukiel has decided upon

.

**Lord Rogukiel**

Lol. Just need to get the meltas now... Only got one from my command squad.

**labmouse42**

Fetterkey wrote:Bikers don't really need flamers, as they have Relentless twin-linked bolters for anti-infantry. I'd go with melta or plasma, but probably melta.

That's halfway true. It depends on what you are fighting against on how useful the flamers are.

Take a squad of 30 'gaunts. You have 15 bikes (3 combat squads) shooting at them. If they are all firing their TL bolters, they will have 30 shots, which 8/9 of them hitting, for roughly 27 hits.

Take those same 15 bikes, and 2 of them have flamers. You position each flamer ahead of time so you can get 8 hits with each flamer -- with the 12" move making that very possible. Now those same 15 bikes will score 16 (flamer) + 24 (bolter) hits for a total of 40 hits. Add in that the flamer hits can ignore cover, that makes a significant improvement.
Your mileage may vary based upon how many targets you can get under the template. I am assuming a swarm of gaunts in this case.

In summary, against specific opponents, a pair of mobile flamers can prove very valuable (orks, 'nids, guard gun line) Against other targets, such as CSM, they are not as effective. As such, they are useful for an all-corners list, but not in excess.

**Ozymandias**

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Lol. Just need to get the meltas now... Only got one from my command squad.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1660260&prodId=prod1400031

Enjoy!

labmouse42 wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:Bikers don't really need flamers, as they have Relentless twin-linked bolters for anti-infantry. I'd go with melta or plasma, but probably melta.
That's halfway true. It depends on what you are fighting against on how useful the flamers are.

Take a squad of 30 'gaunts. You have 15 bikes (3 combat squads) shooting at them. If they are all firing their TL bolters, they will have 30 shots, which 8/9 of them hitting, for roughly 27 hits.

Take those same 15 bikes, and 2 of them have flamers. You position each flamer ahead of time so you can get 8 hits with each flamer -- with the 12" move making that very possible. Now those same 15 bikes will score 16 (flamer) + 24 (bolter) hits for a total of 40 hits. Add in that the flamer hits can ignore cover, that makes a significant improvement.
Your mileage may vary based upon how many targets you can get under the template. I am assuming a swarm of gaunts in this case.

In summary, against specific opponents, a pair of mobile flamers can prove very valuable (orks, 'nids, guard gun line) Against other targets, such as CSM, they are not as effective. As such, they are useful for an all-corners list, but not in excess.

I find that I usually have plenty of anti-horde in my Dark Angels army through Sammael, Dakka Preds, and any Terminators. What I'm always lacking is enough anti-tank and here is where the meltas on bikers come in. With the 2 meltas on the bike squad (plus meltabombs on the sgt) and the attack bike it goes a long way towards giving me the anti-armor the rest of my force is lacking. Pure Ravenwing? Sure, throw a couple flamers in, but in any mixed army I'd say melta's all the way.

**Lord Rogukiel**

@Ozymandias: Thanks for the reference, but I'll use a melta gun from the Space Marine battleforce which I'm planning to get soon.

Also, I agree with your point of view about the anti-infantry vs. anti-tank idea. Even in my sample lists, I often find myself lakcing anti-tank weapons, so I will most likely go for the meltas.

Another question: Is it worth equipping the sarge with anything apart from melta bombs?

**Ian Sturrock**

Yeah -- do consider giving the Sarge a Power Weapon. He has a bolt pistol already, so giving him a PW gives him an extra attack (for having two CC weapons) as well as the armour-ignoring ability, so it's a good deal. I would usually take it unless really trying to save points. Even though I prefer to avoid CC with my Ravenwing, there are times when it's really handy to add them to an existing CC to tip the balance, or to charge a unit to finish them off. Or just to charge Tau.

**Ringarin**

Power weapons on Ravenwing Sergeants are good. They serve the same purpose as power weapons in Imperial Guard armys. Ravenwing are a big threat to the enemy. They aren't that great in assaults so the enemy assaults them. The power weapon makes them think twice and gives you a better chance at survival.

Back to the flamers. I'd say they are usefull for vanilla marines, but not ravenwing. I've seen them fielded well that way. They outfit the bikes for assault, usually with a powerfull leader, then they move to the sniper type units that are horrible at assault and in cover. They shoot the flamers and then charge in. Very effective, but not a task for the Ravenwing. That's for the Deathwing and assault squads.

**Lord Rogukiel**

Right thanks. A power weapon then it is.