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Down our way there is a 1750 tourney on the 30th. I'm planning on bringing my Orks, even though there wiill be some tough builds. I know a Daemon player, who will either bring Dual-Thirsters or Thirster Kairos, plus Fiends and bloodcrushers, A Lash army or two, and proabably a Mono Khorne, and Mono Nurgle CSM player. Do you all think this list has got what it takes?

1750 MeK Ork Tourney List

HQ:

Ghazghkull Thraka-225

Big Mek, Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, 'Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Attack Squig, Bosspole-145

Troops:
20*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-160

19*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-154

18*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-148

12*Boyz, Nob with Power Kalw + Bosspole, Trukk with Reinforced Ram-152

12*Boyz, Nob with Power Kalw + Bosspole, Trukk with Reinforced Ram-152

Fast Attack:
Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota-135

Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota-135

Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota-130

Total=1746

Comments and Ctritisms, please.

Dashofpepper will log in at some point today and ask you incredulously "WHERE ARE YOUR BURNAS!?!?!"

And he's right. Pound for pound, 225 points of burnas in a battle wagon with your mek is more dangerous than any group of boyz you can plant him in on a factor of about 3 or 4 to 1. 15 burnas + mek in a wagon running around the board burning units with a zeal that I don't see matched in the ork army list. You can look at the below points for a quick recap of killing power, or click on the link at the bottom where I go on and on about it.

While it does cut into your budget a bit by jumping the cost up from 154 to 225 for the boyz in the wagon, you also get to save the cost for Power Klaw, 'Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Attack Squig, and Bosspole, since all your mek really needs to carry is a KFF and a burna to be completely effective.

Most importantly, the unit can kill much more than 1 unit per turn depending on how many units you can find within 8" of each other, and with a 15" effective attack range every turn, you are death on wheels.

- Kill 1 whole space marine group 10 strong? Clip 4 models for a total of 64 auto-hits. Unit dead.

- Kill 1 whole genestealer group 12 strong? Clip 2 models for a total of 32 auto-hits, ignoring their armor and cover with 16 total wounds.

- Kill 50 imperial guard in a single unit? Clip 5 models, and the entire unit disappears in a puff of smoke.

- 10 strong terminator squad? Yes, you need to clip 8 of the group to destroy it, but that's not too hard to do, particularly since you can tankshock the group into a clumped up position prior to firing. Just hope they don't luck out when they death or glory.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/272288.page#1230335

They certinly seam pretty good. I should have enough spare burnas around to make a squad of 15. And I already can swap the Mek's arm our for one with it. I'll try it out and see if it works.

EDIT: This better?

Ghazghkull Thraka-225

Big Mek, Kustom Force Field, Burna, Bosspole, 'Eavy Amor-115

Elites:
15*Burna Boyz-225

Troops:
20*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-160

18*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-148

12*Boyz, Nob with Power Kalw + Bosspole, Trukk with Reinforced Ram and Red Paint Job-157

12*Boyz, Nob with Power Kalw + Bosspole, Trukk with Reinforced Ram and Red Paint Job-157

Fast Attack:
Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job, Big Shoota-140

Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job, Big Shoota-140

Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job, Big Shoota-140

Total= 1747

Indeed. Other than that, you'll probably get some flak about having buzzsaws on the koptas from users, and you definitely won't need a boarding plank for the burna wagon since they don't have (or need) a klaw.

Since Dashofpepper replies to pretty much every ork-related thread on Dakka's forums, you can expect to hear him say that you shouldn't take bosspoles, but since that only frees up 20 points and most people either hate them or swear by them, you can either go with or without them.

I find the Buzzsaws help, even if only a little, and Bosspoles help a lot. My boyz have wethered many though combats because of them. To say the least I've won a game or two simply because of Bosspoles. I agree on the Burna-wagons, about removing the boarding plank, but I don't know what to get for the points.

The Mek only needs a burna and a KFF, pretty much he should never leave the battlewagon unless its destroyed.

Where else do you advise I spend the 10 points I gain from removing the bosspole and armor?

arinnoor wrote:Where else do you advise I spend the 10 points I gain from removing the bosspole and armor?

Boarding planks on your trukks, of course. In fact, do the below:

Say adios to the bosspole and armor on the big mek, then toss out the riggers (mek performs same job) and boarding plank (strength too low to matter) on his battle wagon. That makes it 20 total points to spend.

Add grabbin' klaws to both of the battle wagons with nobs on board, and throw boarding planks on both of your trukks. That provides you 5 klaws on armor when you don't want to expose your troops, grabbin' klaws to make the vehicles stationary for those PKs to really work the rear armor on vehicles, while trimming most of the fat.

So this?...


HQ:
Ghazghkull Thraka-225

Big Mek, Kustom Force Field, Burna-105

Elites:
15*Burna Boyz-225

Troops:
20*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-160

18*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-148

12*Boyz, Nob with Power Kalw + Bosspole, Trukk with Reinforced Ram + Red Paint Job + Boadring Plank-162

12*Boyz, Nob with Power Kalw + Bosspole, Trukk with Reinforced Ram + Red Paint Job + Boadring Plank-162

Fast Attack:
Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job, Grabbin' Klaw, Big Shoota-145

Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job, Grabbin' Klaw, Big Shoota-145

Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Armor Plates, Red Paint Job, Big Shoota-130

Total= 1747

Looks good to me, and follows most of the wisdom you'll see preached on this forum.

Okay I'll have to see how may burnas I got lying around to see if I can make them, but the statistical wounds those guys do to things. WOW! Simply wow.

Indeed. Auto-hits multiplied by 16 are cruel. The only thing to keep in mind is that against high toughness high save targets, they are better used as power weapons. For a Carnifex sporting toughness 6 and 2+ save, you are wasting your shots targetting him, unless he just happens to fall in range as an opportunity shot behind other more valuable targets. That Carnifex is going to eat all 16 shots, with less than a 50% chance of putting 1 wound on him.

You can dismount to lay him down, but expect to lose a few burnas, as he will no doubt unload his attacks on them since he has little opportunity to do so while they are in the wagon distributing woe.

I'll just charge him with boys. I haven'ught new bugs yet, maybe they'll change things. But so far a good squad of boyz with their Nob has been enough. The Burnas can help with the numerous Guants I hear a commin.

Correct. But the strength of the current Nid codex is that there can be 6 of those things floating around, as well as tyrants with guards. It takes 2 nobs or a nob and a boss to reasonably put down a carnifex. 1 group of burnas can do the same. With all of your options available to you, you can only put down 3.5 carnifexes a turn, assuming you ignore the gaunts and stealers.

If you can break them up and take them in small chunks, no problem. If not, you've set yourself up for a counter assault, and you can expect to lose a lot of boyz (and nobz, and bosses) in that round of combat if they are able to pile up even half of the number of troops you have.

Tau is probably your best opponent for this type of army, as you can split off into as many splinters as you need to cover as many targets as possible. They are relatively helpless in CC, and present a lot of easy targets on turn 2, neutering their ability to properly respond. They'll probably kill your KFF wagon, but don't be afraid to hijack another trukk to keep them moving and protecting the rest of the litter.

Most shooty armies fall under that same umbrella. Move, take out large groups as a single concerted attack, or split into smaller splinters where it is safe to do so. Since that is the bulk of opponents, you should fair well. Assault armies, particularly tough CC mixed with heavy artillery for disabling your mobility and limiting your safe assault opportunities, will be your toughest challenges.

What about Daemons? We have guy at our store, great guy, cheese-beyond belief, but a great guy, who plays them and runs this setup.....

From what I recall so it might no add up.

2 Bloodthirsters

4-6 Bloodcrushers

6 Fiends

3 Soulgrinders (With Tongue, and maybe Phlem)

2-3 5 man squads of Palguebearers

and I think he added in a squad or two of 10 men horrors with bolts one squad having the changling.

I'm honestly not sure how that would play out. Nobody at my FLGS plays daemons, so all I have is my copy of their codex and theoryhammer to gauge them. I'm certain that invul saves on so many units makes your nobz into high strength boyz, more or less, but at least they aren't sittin on 2+ invuln saves. Perhaps someone with experience working against that build can speak to it.

I think the Burnas can help with the one thing I was worried about before. Those Fiends are deadly, deadly things. Tonz of attacks that rend, they can pretty esily take out my wagons, but with only 2 wounds and a 5+ Invuln I thing the Burnas might be able to take them out in a go. Math wise I need to cover only 3 to wipe the squad. Against this list I've only fought it twice, one draw one loss. The Burnas I think can make a big difference. If I can kill all his big guys, the two Thirsters, Fiends, and Crushers the troops wn't be a problem, as long as those Horrors don't shot my squads. 30 S 4 attacks sucks, even when its only BS 3-4.

Carnuss wrote:

Most importantly, the unit can kill much more than 1 unit per turn depending on how many units you can find within 8" of each other, and with a 15" effective attack range every turn, you are death on wheels.

- Kill 1 whole space marine group 10 strong? Clip 4 models for a total of 64 auto-hits. Unit dead.

- Kill 1 whole genestealer group 12 strong? Clip 2 models for a total of 32 auto-hits, ignoring their armor and cover with 16 total wounds.

- Kill 50 imperial guard in a single unit? Clip 5 models, and the entire unit disappears in a puff of smoke.

- 10 strong terminator squad? Yes, you need to clip 8 of the group to destroy it, but that's not too hard to do, particularly since you can tankshock the group into a clumped up position prior to firing. Just hope they don't luck out when they death or glory.

I don't want to hijack this wonderful thread, but how would you go about making those 15 burnas work in practice? For example, you can't have any friendly models under your flamer templates, correct? How can you jockey those 15 burna boyz so that they can all get a shot off at an enemy target without "nicking" the base of one of their own? Also, I've seen people talk about "tank shocking" enemy units to clump them up for more efficient burn-in-ating - how does that work? Do you have to guess the distance accurately enough to "park" the tank on top of the unit?

Commissar Molotov wrote:I don't want to hijack this wonderful thread, but how would you go about making those 15 burnas work in practice? For example, you can't have any friendly models under your flamer templates, correct? How can you jockey those 15 burna boyz so that they can all get a shot off at an enemy target without "nicking" the base of one of their own?

It's not difficult at all. The burnas are in a wagon, so the template comes off the vehicle, not from the individual models. Burnas have difficulty getting 16 shots off unless they are in lines typically when they are dismounted, but inside a vehicle with open top, which is all ork transports except for wagons with the 'ard case upgrade, it's easy as pie to line the flamer template up where you want it, and on as many groups as you want within the 8" strike range. Once you lay the template down, count of the models it connected with, then multiply that number by 16. That's your auto-hit count.

Commissar Molotov wrote:Also, I've seen people talk about "tank shocking" enemy units to clump them up for more efficient burn-in-ating - how does that work? Do you have to guess the distance accurately enough to "park" the tank on top of the unit?

No. You can even overshoot your mark still landing with remarkable accuracy. The goal is only to move them aside as you go so that you create nice pretty lines to burn. When you connect with the unit, you stand the chance of:

A) forcing them to flee due to leadership check. This should be immediately followed up by tagging a fast moving trukk from wherever on the battlefield as a tail on the unit to insure it goes all the way off the table. Trukks make great escorts for big scary units as long as they don't get popped by supporting fire. This is not to be expected, since most units are fearless and there are no subtractions to the leadership check to help lower those 9s and 10s.

B) allowing a chance to get popped in a death or glory. Beware using tank shocks against chain fists, monstrous creatures, and any other equivalent ridiculousness, as they can pop AV14 and land a 3, 4, 5, or 6 to lay force your burnas to stop. My rule of thumb is that a terminator with a chain fist isn't worth running over with anything more expensive than a trukk, since the enemy would be out of their mind not to D&G a 110 point wagon rolling into it when certain death awaits if it fails.

C) If they pass A and fail or choose not to attempt B, they must move out of the way of the vehicle in the shortest direction possible. The illustration of this in the rulebook makes it look like that doesn't mean that they need to form a single file line for you begging for a template hit, but a lot of players will do exactly that. Even if given fairly liberal movement to the left or right of you, choose which direction they are moving based on which angle you perform the tank shock. If their only direction that they can move entails backing up against their transport, getting closer to another group (bonus), or backing against a board edge, their days are numbered.

So to repeat how the process works

Step 1 - Get marshmallows
Step 2 - Tank shock the enemy into a clump
Step 3 - Burnas do whatever they do
Step 4 - Roast marshmallows over the open fire

*incredulously* WHERE ARE YOUR BURNAS?


Also, there's a thread right next to this one in the forums by Zachwho that you should read. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/263869.page. When I click "Submit" this thread is going to be #1, and the thread I just linked is going to be #2, so its on the front page and worth your reading.

I'll post more later if its required.

Dashofpepper wrote:*incredulously* WHERE ARE YOUR BURNAS?

Told you. I guess he just took a few days off to think about Dark Eldar or whatever, but clearly, the Dashofpepper card is now in play.

BAM!

arinnoor wrote:So this?...


HQ:
Ghazghkull Thraka-225

Big Mek, Kustom Force Field, Burna-105

Elites:
15*Burna Boyz-225

Troops:
20*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-160

18*Boyz, Nob with Power Klaw + Bosspole-148

12*Boyz, Nob with Power Kalw + Bosspole, Trukk with Reinforced Ram + Red Paint Job + Boadring Plank-162

12*Boyz, Nob with Power Kalw + Bosspole, Trukk with Reinforced Ram + Red Paint Job + Boadring Plank-162

Fast Attack:
Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Deffkopta, Twin-Linked Rokkit, Buzzsaw-70

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job, Grabbin' Klaw, Big Shoota-145

Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, Red Paint Job, Grabbin' Klaw, Big Shoota-145

Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Armor Plates, Red Paint Job, Big Shoota-130

Total= 1747

If this is your list to date, my comments are as follows:

1. Lose the bosspoles. You have Ghazghkull Thraka, who makes you fearless for an entire game turn. On that turn, you WILL assault with your entire army. When its done...and you are no longer fearless...you will have either pretty much won the game and turned the rest into a mop-up operation, or lost the game and you're now fighting for a draw. You don't need the bosspoles...you'll be fearless when it counts.

2. Where's the KFF Big Mek going? Can you label them for us? Also, can you stick your edits into your first post so we can read your first post for all your updates? You have a full battlewagon. You have a battlewagon with 18 models in it (Ghazghkull takes two, so I presume he's going here). And you have a battlewagon that's empty. I presume the burnas and KFF go in here? If not, you should make it all that way.

3. Grot riggers...arg. Lose them. There is a balance to strike between wargear and more stuff...and I think you're overdoing it. The best defense is a good offense - remember that! Also remember that your Big Mek has Mek's tools. He can do the same as the grot riggers. I'd prefer you spend those points elsewhere. Like on more boys. In fact, for an 1750 list, I really think you should consider squeezing in another unit of boys, which is where this is all headed.

4. Armor plates on the battlewagon: Please lose that too. Remember that you're open-topped, so there is only ONE dice roll that will cause you to need this. I really think its a waste of points.

5. Deff Rollas: What is your local meta-game? Specifically, does your FLGS and your judge, or TO, let deff-rollas be used against vehicles? If so, fantastic...keep them and ram some freakin' land-raiders. If not....take them off and replace them with reinforced rams.

6. How to make burnas work? You leave them in a battlewagon, and your arc of fire is created from any point on the battlewagon and allowed to overlap. That means that you can roll up next to a unit and drop a template over anything you want ONCE....get as many models as you can underneath it...and then multiply however many models you hit by 15. Its sweet. I wouldn't advise you to drop them out of their transport to go flame things - when they're on the ground its time to make those burnas be power weapons. And THEN they're awesome for killing monstrous creatures, which is primarily what I use them for. Regular boys are cheaper and better spent on killing MEQs and TEQs. Although....a squad of 5 terminators under a burna template = 75 hits, 38 wounds, and 6 failed 2+ armor saves.

7. If dropping the buzzsaws from your deffkoptas would give you enough points for another troop choice (147-152 points for a trukk boy squad with wargear) given everything else we talked about...do so. If not...how about adding another deffkopta to one of those squads?

8. I honestly don't think your big mek needs a burna, but heck...if you've got the points keep it. I'm very minimalist. Just remember NOT to take him out of his battlewagon when the burnas get out. Leave him in there and you've got a mobile flamethrower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh...and remember that soul-grinders are a vehicle. You can drop a boarding plank onto a soul-grinder and destroy it with a powerklaw without fear of reprisal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

arinnoor wrote:I find the Buzzsaws help, even if only a little, and Bosspoles help a lot. My boyz have wethered many though combats because of them. To say the least I've won a game or two simply because of Bosspoles. I agree on the Burna-wagons, about removing the boarding plank, but I don't know what to get for the points.

And in those games, did you have Ghazghkull Thraka? Don't get me wrong - boss-poles are awesome and serve a purpose. But having Ghazghkull Thraka is like having a mega-bosspole that makes your entire army fearless instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

arinnoor wrote:What about Daemons? We have guy at our store, great guy, cheese-beyond belief, but a great guy, who plays them and runs this setup.....

From what I recall so it might no add up.

2 Bloodthirsters

4-6 Bloodcrushers

6 Fiends

3 Soulgrinders (With Tongue, and maybe Phlem)

2-3 5 man squads of Palguebearers

and I think he added in a squad or two of 10 men horrors with bolts one squad having the changling.

You have a couple of answers here: Ghazghkull Thraka, boarding planks, burna boys, massed fire.

So first of all...a Bloodthirster is a 250 point HQ choice before upgrades. WS10, STR7, T6, I5, 5 attacks, 4 wounds. I presume you know how to deal witht he small stuff; here's dealing with the big stuff. Its probably safe to assume you'll get the charge; with a 27" assault range, its kind of a guarantee. He's a daemon, so his 4+ save is an invulnerable save. Doing the math-hammer on Ghazghkull Thraka piling UNSUPPORTED into a bloodthirster (and presuming you are on the Waaaugh! - should be a safe assumption):

Bloodletter strikes first with 5 attacks, WS10 and STR7, he needs 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound: 3.33 hits, 2.77 wounds in total. Rounding up to three, you've got three 2+ invulnerable saves to make, which you statistically will.
Ghazghkull strikes second with 7 attacks needing 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound: 3.5 hits, 2.95 wounds in total. Rounding up to three, the Bloodthirster will fail 1-2.

Round two of combat, the bloodthirster will cause a couple more wounds, and averaging between round 1 and 2, Ghazghkull will statistically fail 1, and add 1-2 now more. Presuming Ghazghkull has taken one, and the bloodthirster has taken 2-3, you come off the Waaaugh! (and lose your invulnerable save) with Ghazghkull still in close combat - and he will statistically take two more wounds while dishing out the final one and ending the bloodthirster. That's if you send him in unsupported without any boys. Personally, I would probably toss in a unit of trukk boys to support Ghazghkull.

Now...if you math-hammer out your squad of 18 boys (17 boys + nob) piling into a bloodthirster...the short version:
Bloodletter attacks, kills three boys.
Boys attack back causing 2.5 wounds, Bloodthirster fails 1. Powerklaw adds 2 more wounds and one failed....bloodthirster lost two, you lost three...you sacrifice a boy because you're fearless.

Morale of the story: You *should* win combat eventually in each scenario, and pointwise - you'll come out ahead with your boys vs. a blood-letter. Better safe than sorry though: Stick in two mobs of boys, or support Ghazghkull, and fling a couple of rokkits at it to be sure. Don't waste burna-boys on blood-letters.

7. If dropping the buzzsaws from your deffkoptas would give you enough points for another troop choice (147-152 points for a trukk boy squad with wargear) given everything else we talked about...do so. If not...how about adding another deffkopta to one of those squads?

Buzzsaws are pretty much mandatory for singleton Deffkopta's. Either you run them with Buzzsaws or you don't run them at all.

Wow - thank'ee for that excellent breakdown of the tactics, Carnuss. I kept thinking I would have to get out of the Battlewagon to use those burnaz, but of course, it's much better to stay in the wagon!

...what was it Chef said in "Apocalypse Now" after they ran into the tiger? "Don't get out of the boat...never get out of the boat!"

Kevin Nash wrote:

7. If dropping the buzzsaws from your deffkoptas would give you enough points for another troop choice (147-152 points for a trukk boy squad with wargear) given everything else we talked about...do so. If not...how about adding another deffkopta to one of those squads?

Buzzsaws are pretty much mandatory for singleton Deffkopta's. Either you run them with Buzzsaws or you don't run them at all.

Fortunately, such a narrow view of the unit isn't widely prevalent, nor supported by....well, anything at all? I would instead instruct the OP to browse about the forums, or even the threads specifically dedicated to deffkoptas and their use, and see the wide success that they - buzzsaws are not mandatory by any means.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:

7. If dropping the buzzsaws from your deffkoptas would give you enough points for another troop choice (147-152 points for a trukk boy squad with wargear) given everything else we talked about...do so. If not...how about adding another deffkopta to one of those squads?

Buzzsaws are pretty much mandatory for singleton Deffkopta's. Either you run them with Buzzsaws or you don't run them at all.

Fortunately, such a narrow view of the unit isn't widely prevalent, nor supported by....well, anything at all? I would instead instruct the OP to browse about the forums, or even the threads specifically dedicated to deffkoptas and their use, and see the wide success that they - buzzsaws are not mandatory by any means.

If run as singleton, I see little value in a single TL rockitt shot, when for only 30 points more you get, in addition to your shot, 3 str 7 attacks against rear armor, offering a much better chance of neutralizing your opponents vehicle if not otherwise destroying it.

Unless of course you consider firing a 50/50 str 8 shot into Leman Russ side armor as somehow competitive. I do not.

If you want to run a full squad of 5 that's another story. However I can think of a number of things I'd rather spend points on in the codex.

My assertion still stands: If you're going to run only one, run it with a buzzsaw or don't bother. A solo deffkopta without a buzzsaw is a waste of points.

That single deffkopta without a buzzsaw can do a bunch of things. It can outflank and hit rear armor. It can take a turn1 scout move and serve as a cheap distraction away from the trukks as players perceive a "closer" threat. It can take its scout move and turbo-boost up the field and be in turn1 assault with anything you want it to be in assault with - devastator squads, broadsides, IG on foot, Loota squads, and anything else you don't want shooting at your trukks.

Even it only scoots 36" across the field and then drops a rokkit into rear armor on turn 1 and shakes a predator or a leman russ....that's still an effective use to take something out of play for a turn, and a second unit (or even a third) that's going to turn around and deal with the closest threat.

Dashofpepper wrote:That single deffkopta without a buzzsaw can do a bunch of things. It can outflank and hit rear armor.

Yes of course but it's not likely with only a 41% wound rate. A deffkopta with a buzzsaw is far more likely to actually wound something since on top of the TL Rockitt shot it also gets 3 Str 7 attacks that mathematically speaking almost guarantee at least a glance and often a penetrating hit against any vehicle that isn't a Land Raider or Monolith.

It can take a turn1 scout move and serve as a cheap distraction away from the trukks as players perceive a "closer" threat. It can take its scout move and turbo-boost up the field and be in turn1 assault with anything you want it to be in assault with - devastator squads, broadsides, IG on foot, Loota squads, and anything else you don't want shooting at your trukks.

It might tie up these units for one turn, or it might just die that turn and do nothing. Against a combat squad of marines it kills nothing and will die after a few rounds of assault. Against a full loota unit? It dies on turn 1 and accomplishes nothing except giving your opponent a kill point.

Even it only scoots 36" across the field and then drops a rokkit into rear armor on turn 1 and shakes a predator or a leman russ....that's still an effective use to take something out of play for a turn, and a second unit (or even a third) that's going to turn around and deal with the closest threat.

But mathematically speaking that probably won't happen because you're assuming a) you actually get a rear armor shot instead of a front or side shot and b) it actually wounds the vehicles with that shot at (again 41% wound rate on rear armor is your best case scenario, if you are up against side armor it can be far worse than that).

Assaulting with a buzzsaw guarantees a rear armor attack, guarantees 3 hits if you did it after a turn 1 scout move which in turn is mathematically likely to get 2 wounds on the vehicles with each of those wounds 75% likely to be penetrating hits.

If you don't have a buzzsaw and you miss an enemy vehicle with your TL Rockitt (which is likely) you've just conceded a kill point without getting one as all of your opponents short range shooting now has something to do on turn 1: kill your deffkopta.