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Alright, in the 'ard boyz thread over in tactics we ran into a roadblock, the Mad Dok makes any unit he joins fearless as part of his "One Scapel short of a med-pack" rule, but he also makes his unit move as fast as possible to the nearest enemy unit.

We all know that he can move, but what if it's the shooting phase? Does he need to 'run'? What if he was deployed inside a battlewagon? Does his rule affect the transport? (personally I would say not, as the transport is not part of 'his unit')

Discuss!

starbomber109 wrote:We all know that he can move, but what if it's the shooting phase? Does he need to 'run'?

No. He only has to "move", that is, move in the movement phase.

What if he was deployed inside a battlewagon?

Again, technically no, although it can be argues that he is forced to disembark to move closer to the enemy

starbomber109 wrote:What if he was deployed inside a battlewagon? Does his rule affect the transport? (personally I would say not, as the transport is not part of 'his unit')

Ork faq says:
Q. Can Grotsnik board a vehicle if doing so will
get him closer to the nearest enemy than if he
moved normally?
A. In the spirit of the rule, if embarking in a
vehicle will not prevent him from charging that
turn and will also get him closer to the nearest
enemy than moving normally that turn, he may
do that. Once aboard, the vehicle must always
move in such a way as to move as fast as possible
towards the closest enemy and allow Grotsnik to
disembark and charge the closest enemy as soon
as possible.

starbomber109 wrote:AWe all know that he can move, but what if it's the shooting phase? Does he need to 'run'?

Since the battlewagon issue is solved by the FAQ, that leaves us with this, which also by association includes the question: does his unit have to consolidate towards the nearest enemy the maximum of the distance rolled in the assault phase when applicable?

To me the answer is fairly clear: moving is moving. Shocking, I know, but bear with me. In the movement phase infantry have the opportunity to move between 0 and 6 inches. Grotsnik forces you to go 6" towards the nearest enemy. In the shooting phase infantry have the opportunity to move 1d6", and Grotsnik again forces you to take advantage of your opportunity to move and do so towards the nearest enemy with greatest possible speed. In the assault phase after their combat ends Grotsnik's unit gets the opportunity to move 1d6" and yet again his rules indicate that you move towards the nearest enemy with this movement and must move the maximum amount.

In short, if Grotsnik's unit can move, they must, following the guidelines given in his special rule. It says nowhere that this compulsory movement is limited to the movement phase.

If he must move in every possible way, then what if you were in assault range, and running would prevent you from moving as fast as possible? Would Grotsnik's rule force you to declare a Waaaaaagh in response? What if you had used your Waaaaaaagh?

I interpert "move" as "move in the move phase" for the sake of simplicity .

Chaos303 wrote:If he must move in every possible way, then what if you were in assault range, and running would prevent you from moving as fast as possible?

Ork Codex wrote:...he will always move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy, assaulting it if possible.

Once you're in assault range, you don't have to run because you must assault if possible and running would prevent that (unless you declare a WAAAGH!.) Grotsnik is one of the rare units that gets to measure if he's in charge range before he runs.

I think that's a vastly wide interpretation of his rules to believe he gets to premeasure his potential assault after the movement phase.

Movement is a phase. Even in the FAQ, it doesn't say disembark and then run. He has the requirement of moving (happening during the movement phase) and assaulting if possible. As someone mentioned elsewhere, the closest thing to this is the USR: Rage....and that tells you that you're free to decide what to do during the shooting phase.

And if he and his unit move, then run....and by running forfeit the ability to assault, you've broken the rule. Your counter-argument here that you're then supposed to measure the distance between you and the enemy unit after the moving phase to decide if you're supposed to run or shoot is unsupported by the rules anywhere.

There's a mantra somewhere....whatever interpretation doesn't break other rules is the one to accept? Something like that? If you interpret "Move towards the enemy as fast as possible and then assault" literally, you break no rules and your shooting phase is yours to do with as you will, which is supported by the USR: Rage. If you interpret that to mean "Move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit" and attach stipulations about pre-measuring running and assaults, and required consolidation moves....you're nudging in and breaking a whole slew of other rules.

Dashofpepper wrote:He has the requirement of moving (happening during the movement phase)

The 'movement means movement phase' argument fundamentally assumes that the movement phase is the only phase that movement happens in, which then implies that the assault move or consolidation move or fall back move are just misprints because no movement can happen outside of the movement phase. As movement already occurs in every phase, saying that grotsnik's reference to movement only applies to one phase is completely arbitrary. Saying that movement is not movement because it complicates things is a little silly.

Dashofpepper wrote:If you interpret that to mean "Move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit" and attach stipulations about pre-measuring running and assaults, and required consolidation moves....you're nudging in and breaking a whole slew of other rules.

Like what? In the measuring distances section it allows for measuring in special circumstances, so I am curious as to what rules are being broken.

As far as not getting out of transports goes to run or conversely mandatory embarking becomes a case of RaI where to try to make it fit in the rule just isn't how it was meant to be. Even the FAQ states RaI on Grotsnik's movement rule and vehicles. Really, a lot of Grotsnik's movement does come down to RaI.

Or we can have some other interpretations as well. Such as a unit choosing to fire in the shooting phase, which would not allow the dok to run.

Wait, dok has to move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy. But.....there is no rule saying that his unit cannot shoot, so if his boyz decide to dakka away they are certainly free to shoot. Of course that means that the dok's unit is unable to run, so they cannot then move during the shooting phase.

Or the other extreme interpretaion would be that since dok must move as fast as possible.... so that means that he must run and since he must move as fast as possible he automatically rolls a 6 on his run dice, since thats the fastest that he can move.



A lot depends on how much weight you give the dok's rule to override ither rules and choices.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Or we can have some other interpretations as well. Such as a unit choosing to fire in the shooting phase, which would not allow the dok to run. there is no rule saying that his unit cannot shoot

Sliggoth wrote:Wait, dok has to move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy.

Once re-parsed, your post has answered its own quandry.

Fact: Must move as fast as possible
Quandry: Does shooting prevent him from moving as fast as possible?
Resolution: Shooting prevents running movement, which would be a faster way to get to the enemy, so they are not allowed to shoot

There is no definite answer to the question.

It gets really complicated when Grotsnik is attached to tank bustas (One Scapel short of a med-pack + Glory Hog = ?).