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My strategy for Tau has always been formed around interlocking support, every unit supporting every unit. No rockstars no standouts everyone does their job as such firewarriors have always formed the nucleus around which the rest of my army orbits.

Fire warriors take up the role of volume firepower, wherever infantry are pulse rifles are pointed at them, and wherever pulse rifles are pointed markerlights are pointed. Yes thats right I use precious markerlights on firewarriors and not Crisis Suits here is why.

Lets say you just popped a rhino and 10 tactical marines come tumbling out you fire your markerlights and score 4 hits, now popular opinion says use those markers on your Fireknife suits

3x fireknife (186 points)

w/o Marker Lights

3 plasma = 1.26 wounds
6 MP = .83 wounds

for 2 wounds thus paying 88 points per wound

3 x fireknife w/ML

3 plasma = 2 wounds 6 missiles = 1.39

for 3.3 wounds paying 54 points per wound, Markerlights increased Fireknife effectiveness by about 33%

Firewarriors (120 points)

w/o Marker Lights

12 pulse rifle = 1.3 wounds

thus paying 92 points per wound

Firewariors w/Marker Lights

12 pulse rifle = 2.19 wounds

thus paying 54 points per wound, increasing firewarrior effectiveness by 59%



This means that with marker support your lowly FCW's point for point will kill more MEQ than your fireknife suits! Now if that same tac squad is in cover the effectiveness of your crisis suits drops off greatly as you now need 5 marker hits to achieve the same results whereas your Firewarriors are at the exact same efficiency. Furthermore if you take rapidfire into account The fireknives are at 33 points per wound dealt but Fire Warrior efficiency reaches 27 points per wound!

So great I just threw a bunch of numbers at you, we all know that mathhammer and reality don't always coincide, so what does this really mean?

Tactical Flexibility

let me say this again

Tactical Flexibility.

Now that we know that with marker support our Fire Warriors can engage meq with the approximate success rate of our crisis suits this frees our crisis suits up! They no longer have to be the mainstay of your damage they are free to really live up to their name Crisis suit, meaning that when something goes badly you fill in the gaps with your versatile fast moving bandages. This is where interlocking support roles really come into play, if you deploy your FCW's and your crisis suits in tandem you now have the one two punch of volume firepower and high strength shots mutually assuring each others survival. You don't get that kind of synergy (or even a bloody armor save) with kroot, which is why I never field less than 36 Firewarriors or 12 markerlights (2 hits per FCW squad)





Yes I realize this is all mathhammer, yes I know that on the tabletop conditions vary wildly and actual results will never fall precisely into mathematic calculations. However using math as a starting point knowing full well that mathammer isn't be all end all, forms a fine basis for further exploration.

That sounds like a worthy force multiplier. I've played against fire warrior-based Tau armies with my Plague Marines, and without any support, they usually accomplish little against T5+FNP. With some markerlight hits, they could see off my pricey followers of Nurgle with authority. I'll have to be on the lookout for this tactic.

You're using an incredibly specific example there. A few objections I have:

1. Fireknife suits - incredibly inefficient "jack-of-all-trades, good-at-none" non-specialists. I must admit that I scoff at players who use them and stop there for fear of another banhammer for using the wrong words.

2. Firewarriors with markerlight support deserve to be using them in rapid-fire. Dropping two markerlights to support a firewarrior squad against MEQs...24 shots needing 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound math-hammers out to 20 hits and 13 wounds, or 4.5 dead marines. If you're going to use them, might as well use them the best you can.

3. Its been a very long time since I've taken a Tau army without a squad of Helios suits - that's plasma/fusion. Plasma is a MEQ/terminator killer, and missiles are light vehicle killers. I choose to separate them. Death-rain suits are twin-linked missile launchers serving a light-vehicle killing role (or anti-infantry backup depending on what my broadsides are killing, and how many vehicles in the enemy army), and I keep my plasma for killing MEQ/TEQ.

4. Instead of needing 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound with 6 plasma shots and 3 fusion shots, that turns into 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound and there's no armor saves or feel no pain, and after your 12" fusillade of death, you can jump 6" away to prevent a following turn assault. That's 6.25 dead marines instead of the 3.3 that your fireknives are getting.

Seriously, specialize your Tau suits.

There was another thread that turned into "why Fire Warriors and/or Fireknives do or don't suck."

I think Fire Warriors suck. They're mandatory, so clearly they're part of a winning list, but ultimately they suck. They suck because they're so easy, and so obvious to kill. You assault them. And they don't really have a cost effective way to get away, nor do they have a unit that can protect them.

Your example shows that they can shoot. No question, as basic infantry go, very few have better standard firepower than FWs. As compared to Tac Marines, they're the same against infantry, but with better range, and more threat to light vehicles. So that's a good thing for them. But they get no upgrade weapons, and they die in assault immediately.

I must admit that I scoff at players who use them and stop there for fear of another banhammer for using the wrong words.

So you've said, several times, but I've yet to see a compelling argument as to why.

Fireknives are certainly generalists as you say, and in 40K that's always been a bit of a no-no, but if you're sufficiently good at all the things you generalize into, then it's not a bad thing.

It's not like I don't like other builds. I use the Helios build. I use Deathrains. I also use Fireknives. They all have a useful place in the list.

A big key to winning with Tau is spacing.

With a lot of lists (Chaos comes to mind), sticking together in a big mass can work nicely, as no unit can be picked off, without the rest of the army getting payback.

Since Tau are all shooting, and have no credible counter-assault unit, this isn't an option. Instead, you want to be spread out as much as possible, so that if you have the misfortune of losing combat in your own turn, the other guy can't just sweep along into the next squad.

What all of this means, is that you need suits that can operate from far away (Deathrains), ones that operate up close (Helios), and ones that operate in the mid range (Fireknife). Since the mid range is the most common, Fireknives should be the most common.

I should also add, as I did in the other thread, that the Tau Codex is very old, and very suspect at this point. You've got a very tough case to make, that FWs don't suck, when you consider that they're a Troops choice in one of the older Codices.

Dashofpepper wrote:4. Instead of needing 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound with 6 plasma shots and 3 fusion shots, that turns into 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound and there's no armor saves or feel no pain, and after your 12" fusillade of death, you can jump 6" away to prevent a following turn assault. That's 6.25 dead marines instead of the 3.3 that your fireknives are getting.

Seriously, specialize your Tau suits.

You are forgetting fusion has an incredibly short range. Most of the time, they arent doing shi t. On the other hand, a 36 inch missile pod gets more round of shooting.

If you are specializing your suits, it shoud be Burning Eye or Sunforge, not Helios.

1. Fireknife suits - incredibly inefficient "jack-of-all-trades, good-at-none" non-specialists. I must admit that I scoff at players who use them and stop there for fear of another banhammer for using the wrong words.

Fire knife suits are plenty effective. They have the ability to plink away from range and unleash the serious hurt if they absolutely have to.

4. Instead of needing 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound with 6 plasma shots and 3 fusion shots, that turns into 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound and there's no armor saves or feel no pain, and after your 12" fusillade of death, you can jump 6" away to prevent a following turn assault. That's 6.25 dead marines instead of the 3.3 that your fireknives are getting.

This assumes that the marines are standing out in the open. Which any infantry rarely is, especially in an army as elite as marines. It also assumes he is not in a transport. Finally it puts you in rapid fire range, and it sucks hard if you are fighting a unit that can fleet. I can see 1 squad of fusion/plasma suits being effective, and one squad of deathrain. But I think the versatility provided by fire knives is something incredibly valuable.

The problem with firewarriors is simple. They are a shooty unit that can only hurt infantry. If I mech up, or go monster eldar, nidzilla, etc...their guns are mostly worthless.

And if playing against droppods, you might destroy all but a handful of models with shooting, but those handful of models the next turn will wipe the firewarriors off the face of the earth.

So...they're a mediocre shooting unit that cannot hurt anything tough and are super fragile in hth. And they get annihiliated by the heavy bolter or the heavy flamer.

I like firewarriors, as models. I just think their lack of anti-monster or anti-tank unit makes them inferior.

as above, firewarriors are weak against non infantry, heavy weapon models in normal squads sort of spoil it for armies that don't have them.

If you are heavy on markerlights, kroot can put out some wholesale whoopass at rapid fire range for very minimal points (as long as they can get into cover)
Last time I played against daemons 2 squads of 20 kroot were my flank protectors, everything that came their way got rapid fired down in 1 round, was pretty nice.
I see why they aren't worth the points though, but in friendly games it can be amusing throwing 40 dice that hit in 2's

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think that Kroot can benefit from Markerlights. You may want to double-check on that.

When the next Tau codex is released, Firewarriors will be 9 points each. At that point, they will be worth it.

The premise of the OP is having half of a maxxed squad of Pathfinders hit. That says more about markerlights than the subject of whether Fire Warriors suck or not. Nobody has argued that markerlights improve a unit's killing ability.

As always, my grievance is that if an ork thug and a Tau firewarrior get into an argument in a bar and decide to settle it via arm wrestling...neither of them can prevail over the other since they're both STR3.

Honestly, orks should be STR4, but that's nontopical - my point is that firewarriors are puny and should be STR2. Give them +1 ballistic skill, take away -1 strength!!

Lorek wrote:I may be wrong on this, but I don't think that Kroot can benefit from Markerlights. You may want to double-check on that.

They can't.

So, the immobile, die if you look at them, no special weapons squad can do a reasonable job at killing infantry?

And your proclaiming them better than fireknives?

Lets see, fireknives do everything. They kill transports and then kill whats inside, they don't force you to spend 120+ points on a very inefficient transport to be even semi useful, and they can move and shoot at full capacity.

Sure, maybe firewarriors kill MEQ's slightly better points wise. But why heck would I want to take such a specific unit.

Also, you don't even going into the survivability of each.
1 heavy flamer and your squad is gone.

Dashofpepper wrote:As always, my grievance is that if an ork thug and a Tau firewarrior get into an argument in a bar and decide to settle it via arm wrestling...neither of them can prevail over the other since they're both STR3.

Honestly, orks should be STR4, but that's nontopical - my point is that firewarriors are puny and should be STR2. Give them +1 ballistic skill, take away -1 strength!!

Dashofpepper wrote:You're using an incredibly specific example there. A few objections I have:
2. Firewarriors with markerlight support deserve to be using them in rapid-fire. Dropping two markerlights to support a firewarrior squad against MEQs...24 shots needing 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound math-hammers out to 20 hits and 13 wounds, or 4.5 dead marines. If you're going to use them, might as well use them the best you can.

Of course, the remaining 5-6 tactical marines will then charge the firewarriors squad and easily whoop it in melee, so the tactical squad still comes out ahead. Sure, you can have two full firewarrior squads go together, but with transports you're now talking over 400 points of stuff, not including the dedicated pathfinder support. Now you've got 2 scoring units out of their transports and within 12" of the enemy. Sure, they may kill the one tactical squad, but now the entire enemy army finally has a good target for its heavy bolters and other AP weapons.

labmouse42 wrote:When the next Tau codex is released, Firewarriors will be 9 points each. At that point, they will be worth it.

The Tau codex is older than many, and point-costs for units shows it. I don't think a drop of 1 point is going to be enough to make firewarriors meaningful to take. Maybe down to around 7 each, or the inclusion of some kind of heavy/special weapon that makes them more tactically flexible and/or threatening. As is, they're extremely expensive light-infantry killing specialists...the least important factor in most armies. Add in the fact that they're only moderately tough and have to get close to the enemy to have any significant effect, and they're not an efficient army selection.

Granted, 7 points seems awfully low when considering the cost of an ork or IG soldier, but those models protect important models like heavy weapons and powerklaws, and benefit from easily accessible stat boosters like mob-rule, waagh and IG leadership stuff. Tau get crap in that department, really, unless you want to take an ethereal....

Firewarriors should be BS4, to make them worthwhile, and they should have the option for a heavy weapon, like a rail rifle or something. Lacking it really takes their punch away.

Sweet models though, it is too bad they aren't better.

And Ors should NOT be str 4, hahaha, they are stupid good as they are. Furious assault works well for them at str 3.

Firewarriors are decent Troop choices. They have decent armor, average BS (pretty weak for a shooty army) and their weapons (Pulse Rifle/Carbine) are long-ranged (rifle), powerful and effective. You just have to be aware of their limitations (which is the major weakness in CC). If you use them as as designed, as part of a larger theme\plan, and do NOT allow them to get bushwhacked, they are worthy of the 10pt cost. The Bonding knives upgrade gives them some resiliency. Using Markerlights on FWs, whether integral with the Shas'ui or with Pathfinders/Drones is critical to any Tau success. Using them with FWs does give you more opportunities because of an undamaged FW squads numbers.

The pain with FWs is the 80pt Dedicated Transport. Devilfish may be tougher than most DTs but 80pts!!! They are not that tough. At that cost 12fws, no upgrades on either the Troops or the 'Fish and your Troop choice is 200Pts...and you have to have at least 2 of these? To me that is the biggest limitiations.

Yeah, Devil fish were the shizzle last edition because they could move and shoot everything. If they could still do that now, they would be ace. FoF would still be a great tactic and we would see more firewarriors squads, but the Tau got the nerf bat hard with the stupid str 4 defensive weapons.

That is the one change to the game that I don't like in 5th.

scuddman wrote:The problem with firewarriors is simple. They are a shooty unit that can only hurt infantry. If I mech up, or go monster eldar, nidzilla, etc...their guns are mostly worthless.

And if playing against droppods, you might destroy all but a handful of models with shooting, but those handful of models the next turn will wipe the firewarriors off the face of the earth.

So...they're a mediocre shooting unit that cannot hurt anything tough and are super fragile in hth. And they get annihiliated by the heavy bolter or the heavy flamer.

I like firewarriors, as models. I just think their lack of anti-monster or anti-tank unit makes them inferior.

Kinda scratched my head on this one, Firewarriors glance rhinos a stunned rhino means a rhino you can ignore for a turn freeing you railguns to blow up other rhinos

Massed pulse rifles do fine against nidzilla again with markerlights 12 shots 10 hit 3 armor saves means 1 wound, thus you use them to polish off a fex that has been mauled by your crisis suits or sniper drones, hell in rapid fire 2 squads will kill a fex outright.

drop pods? great you drop within rapidfire range of my whole army eat dakka and die screaming. Multiple pods? ok I dakka 1 off the face of the earth you charge my fcw's with the second wipe it in 1 turn now you're again staring down the barrels of all my rapidfire weapons eat dakka and die screaming.

Yes they are fragile, but find me a 10 point model that isn't fragile you take that into account and plan accordingly if assault is imminent and there is nothing you can do to stop it charge one squad forward spread out blaze away and sacrifice yourself for the greater good while your comrades fall back and avenge you on the next turn. I'll trade people squads of marines for squads of Fire Warriors 1 for 1 all day long without complaining in the slightest.

I had no idea there was so much disdain for FWs...

To me, they are clearly very effective at what they do. Asking for more than +1 BS (which should come in the form of a relatively cheap upgrade, 10-20 points for the squad, depending on whether they can take a heavy weapon in the next codex) seems a bit ridiculous.

I also see that people want Ork boys to be s4... so I am going to take a lot of the anti-FW stuff with a grain of salt.

Guardians are ridiculously less effective than FWs, I see no serious problems with Tau in that department. 10 point troops, deliver 10 point results. FW are very good at paying for themselves on the field, they can nearly always find something squishy to shoot at, and if they can't, dropping wounds on light armor and MC's is not a bad thing.

If other adjustments were made to the Tau codex (pretty serious adjustments really), the addition of cheaper troops, would be ludicrously silly and overpowered.

7 point FWs? REALLY...

Massed pulse rifles do fine against nidzilla again with markerlights 12 shots 10 hit 3 armor saves means 1 wound

That's "doing fine" in your book? That's at least 120 points of FWs, plus the cost of whomever put two Markerlight hits on the target (and Markerlights tend to be overcosted, most places). All of that, and you put one would on the Fex? In the soon-to-be-replaced version of the Codex, that Fex probably cost about 114 points. You just spent about at least 150 points worth of models to put a wound on him.

Then the Hive Mind compels him to experience the Tyranid equivalent of disdain, before his 2x T-L Devourers kill 3-4 FWs.

great you drop within rapidfire range of my whole army eat dakka and die screaming.

Right, cause I play my army in order to set you up for the awesome counter-attack you have planned. What is this, karate class?

I've played Tau twice with my Drop Pod list recently. The first time we called it after three turns because it wasn't worth mopping up his army.

The second time I got the feeling that the other guy was new and needed a break, so I did exactly what you suggest, and dropped right in front of him. His shooting killed some Marines, then the rest of them walked over his army in assault.

Do the Mathhammer:

10x Marines, 20x shots, 13.3 hits, 8.9 wounds, 4.4 dead FWs.

12x FWs, 24x shots, 12 hit, 8 wound, 2.7 dead Marines.

Let's check the points:

4.4 FWs = 44 points
2.7 Marines = 40.5 points (approximately)

FWs lose. And FWs shoot second against Pods. Double lose.

Let's take the order into account, and throw in the Markerlights.

12 - 4.4 FWs = 7.6 FWs, 15.2 shots, 12.7 hits, 8.4 wounds, 2.8 dead Marines. -> 42 points.

Still lose.

And it's not like I don't know this first hand. I have a Tau army. I have a Nidzilla army. I have a Drop Pod army. I own and play all the armies in question. Tau are weak, and FWs are some of the worst troops in the game. Compare them to all the others, and you'll see they don't stack up.

Compare them... Sisters of Battle? Nope. Ork Boyz? Nope. Chaos Marines, Grey Hunters, IG Veterans, Dire Avengers? Nope.

Again, none of this is saying that you haven't won some games with Tau, or that your FWs didn't do well for you. I'm sure you do well. But the simple fact is that Tau aren't up to par right now, and with two equal players, the Tau will lose out more often that the newer lists.

They're not AWFUL, but in this game there aren't many troops choices that are worse. If you're in the bottom 20% of all Troops choices, that means suck.

I think with the rise of the T5 big bugs and the T5 tervigon/guant mom, Firewarriors might just come into their own as fire support. (they can put some wounds into those creatures)

The issue is many troops can take some form of gun to pop a transport, space marines can take a meltagun, ork boyz have the rokkit, IG have meltaguns, guardians can take their support weapon platform (and storm guardians can take meltas) because everyone mechs up now, the Firewarrior has no option to punch open a transport, the Firewarriors must rely on other units to break transports, once the transport is broken, some might argue that there are other units you can shoot at the guys who pile out, but there's something to be said for a pile of S5 bullets coming at you. It's not that firewarriors 'suck' I think, they just aren't as sexy.

And btw, ork boyz are S4....on the charge. ;P

starbomber109 wrote:The issue is many troops can take some form of gun to pop a transport, space marines can take a meltagun, ork boyz have the rokkit, IG have meltaguns, guardians can take their support weapon platform (and storm guardians can take meltas) because everyone mechs up now, the Firewarrior has no option to punch open a transport, the Firewarriors must rely on other units to break transports, once the transport is broken, some might argue that there are other units you can shoot at the guys who pile out, but there's something to be said for a pile of S5 bullets coming at you. It's not that firewarriors 'suck' I think, they just aren't as sexy.

They are not sexy, but I think most underestimate how awesome their weapons really are.

With such a fantastic range, they can drop 2-3 rounds of shooting down before most squads can get into range and actually be able to use all of their short range AT weapons. For the record, a couple of Orks holding rokkits... is not exactly a scary sight. Meltas are quite effective if you can make use of their limited range.

The simple fact that s5 weapons put wounds on WL, or can shake up AV 10-11, is really useful. My guardians can get one s8 shot, or 4 s6 shots (granted they are assault weapons, which is pretty cool), which doesn't add up to very good odds. Marines with a ML don't do much better, neither do most other troops.

Comparing units simply on damage output, is silly to say the least. Bolters, Shuriken Cannons, Shootas, all pail in comparison to the effectiveness provided by Tau small arms. There is no doubting that there are serious holes in the Tau codex, but the problem isn't really their troops. Transports, Suits... etc... all need work.

Phryxis wrote:
I've played Tau twice with my Drop Pod list recently. The first time we called it after three turns because it wasn't worth mopping up his army.

The second time I got the feeling that the other guy was new and needed a break, so I did exactly what you suggest, and dropped right in front of him. His shooting killed some Marines, then the rest of them walked over his army in assault.

Do the Mathhammer:

10x Marines, 20x shots, 13.3 hits, 8.9 wounds, 4.4 dead FWs.

12x FWs, 24x shots, 12 hit, 8 wound, 2.7 dead Marines.

Let's check the points:

4.4 FWs = 44 points
2.7 Marines = 40.5 points (approximately)

FWs lose. And FWs shoot second against Pods. Double lose.

Let's take the order into account, and throw in the Markerlights.

12 - 4.4 FWs = 7.6 FWs, 15.2 shots, 12.7 hits, 8.4 wounds, 2.8 dead Marines. -> 42 points.

Still lose.

While I agree that FW need a buff, I'm not sure on the lose to pods argument. Why would they be shooting second? They should be armored up...and you can always reserve against a pod army...especially if you have speed.

Phryxis wrote:

Massed pulse rifles do fine against nidzilla again with markerlights 12 shots 10 hit 3 armor saves means 1 wound

That's "doing fine" in your book? That's at least 120 points of FWs, plus the cost of whomever put two Markerlight hits on the target (and Markerlights tend to be overcosted, most places). All of that, and you put one would on the Fex? In the soon-to-be-replaced version of the Codex, that Fex probably cost about 114 points. You just spent about at least 150 points worth of models to put a wound on him.

Then the Hive Mind compels him to experience the Tyranid equivalent of disdain, before his 2x T-L Devourers kill 3-4 FWs.

Yes that is doing fine, reasoning being that if need be I can use off purpose units to deal with a threat, remember my reasoning is tactical flexibility. If my suits are tied up with dropping say a closer (more threatening fex) I can use my FCW's to soften you up for the easy kill next turn. Yes your TL devourers will kill a few this turn but then the suits polish you off next turn I'll trade 4-5 firewarriors for a fex

Phryxis wrote:

great you drop within rapidfire range of my whole army eat dakka and die screaming.

Right, cause I play my army in order to set you up for the awesome counter-attack you have planned. What is this, karate class?

I've played Tau twice with my Drop Pod list recently. The first time we called it after three turns because it wasn't worth mopping up his army.

The second time I got the feeling that the other guy was new and needed a break, so I did exactly what you suggest, and dropped right in front of him. His shooting killed some Marines, then the rest of them walked over his army in assault.

Do the Mathhammer:

10x Marines, 20x shots, 13.3 hits, 8.9 wounds, 4.4 dead FWs.

12x FWs, 24x shots, 12 hit, 8 wound, 2.7 dead Marines.

Let's check the points:

4.4 FWs = 44 points
2.7 Marines = 40.5 points (approximately)

FWs lose. And FWs shoot second against Pods. Double lose.

Let's take the order into account, and throw in the Markerlights.

12 - 4.4 FWs = 7.6 FWs, 15.2 shots, 12.7 hits, 8.4 wounds, 2.8 dead Marines. -> 42 points.

Still lose

Yeah your not dropping in front of 12 fire warriors your dropping in front of 36 and a squad of suits, you die screaming, overlapping support like I mentioned. Also I'm curious if the tau players you played had massed fire warriors with enough markers to support them with a good deployment not scattered all over the place.

How many games does the 30" range really come into play? With all the running, mech, scouts and infiltrators I see in games, that range *may* be used once. More often than not though, the range is superfluous because the fire warriors are in a transport because that's the best place for them.

I don't count 6" of extra range much of a bonus in this edition.

Firewarriors are not that bad. They aren't so good, but they aren't bad. It is all about application and support.

I personally use 1 6 man squad in my pathfinders 'fish. They are not good enough to take more right now. Raise their BS by 1 and drop the price of the fiish by 10 points and you will have a valid troop choice. As it stand there are better choices for the points.

I find it curious that the OP says that fire warriors gain .9 wounds using markerlights while the fireknives gain 1.25 and still thinks the firewarriors benefit more just because of efficiency.

Sorry, the crisis suits are the obvious winner here.

In the joyful discussion of firewarrior vs crisis suits - firewarriors suck. They suck because they shoot exactly as well as a marine and point for point will stand there and duke it out with the marine (assuming they both start in range and the firewarriors fire first) until death. So in the sole task they can accomplish, killing infantry, they are as efficient as a marine.

However, they have no special weapons so cannot do anything else. No combat ability whatsoever and so they cannot survive anything that moves quickly. And terrible leadership so in a game where leadership rarely matters they are the great losers and very unreliable.

They need to be able to take rail rifles in their squad. They needed it last codex. And they need the fish to go back to moving 12 and shooting everything. Or drop them 2-3 points.

And remember, hanging out in a transport might be a safe place but it costs them a turn to get out if you aren't in rapid fire which is a dangerous place to be. The only way I have ever been able to effectively use them is by running around jumping out of transports and ganging up on things with the entire army.

Fireknives on the other hand can do anything short of killing land raiders. In an army of units that can do one thing they can do multiple things which i actually prefer.

Why would they be shooting second?

There's a limit to what Mathhammer can tell us, as you know. Yes, the FWs might be meched up. Yes, they might be off the table if they win choice of turn, get DoW, etc. Can't account for all of that in Mathhammer.

The point here was to show how their shooting stacks up. Toe to toe with SMs with Bolters, they lose out. The claim was that they're sending stuff "off the board screaming" and "blowing away squads" and such. They're not. In fact, they're losing a battle of attrition in shooting with SMs.

If they can't outshoot SMs point for point, and they CERTAINLY can't out CC SMs point for point, how can they not suck?

Add in the fact that SMs have cheaper transports, can get special/heavy weapons, have all sorts of tricks with morale and splitting squads to adapt to mission...

It's clear why FWs "suck" in comparison. They're a shooty unit that can't outshoot a basic Bolter Marine, point for point.

Honestly, that alone should be enough to finish this discussion. If you're a shooty unit that can't outshoot, then you suck. Period.

I can use my FCW's to soften you up for the easy kill next turn.

You're not really thinking clearly here. You're just insisting that you can shoot stuff down (in cinematic, not at all emperical terms), and in order to rationalize it, you've always somehow got half your army to shoot at every 115 point model that's coming at you. That's not how it works. You've got the same number of points as your opponent. You have to kill points faster than he does. The numbers show that you can't.

You can point to "flexibility" and "tactics" all you want. Is your opponent not allowed to use those things too? Again, this isn't karate class, he doesn't have to run at you with his knife hand up in the air, so you can do your kata on him. Instead, he's got 3x 115 point Fexes coming at you, along with 40 odd Gaunts, 20 odd Genestealers, a couple more Gunfexes, and a Tyrant.

Think about it... That 115 point Fex cost LESS than your FCWs. They can put one wound on it per turn. He can kill 3-4 FWs per turn. He'll win that battle of attrition every time. It takes them 4 turns. It takes him 3. And that's not even the worst of it, because as the FWs lose models, they lose shooting. The Fex loses nothing until he drops dead.

So what does that make a 115 point Fex? It makes it YET ANOTHER unit that can both outshoot and outfight Tau FWs.

Noticing a pattern here?

Also I'm curious if the tau players you played had massed fire warriors with enough markers to support them with a good deployment not scattered all over the place.

Yes, this is roughly what one player did. And by all means, do this, and lose to Pods. Spacing is key to winning with Tau. If you bunch up, the Pods will drop on the corners of your firebase, and you'll have no good place to run.

Pod armies get to be right where they want to be ONCE. If you bunch up, they'll get you. If you've got suits scooting around the table, Hammerheads and Piranhas staying at range, Devilfish to move your FWs to claim objectives, those Pods can't catch them all. But if you bunch up, and rely on massed shooting, the Pod player will drop wherever there's holes in your shooting, use the Pod to screen even more, and then walk through you in CC.

But, don't worry about who I'm playing. I'm not basing this just on playing against Tau. Again, let me restate, I have a Tau army. I have a good 30+ FWs painted up. I've played them many times. They suck. Sorry.

To further make my point, let me describe the last time I lost to Tau. I was playing Nidzilla. It was a 2 objective game. I played poorly, took too long getting across the table, and there was no turn 6. So, at the end of turn 5, he had about 4 FCWs left on his objective, and he had one Piranha left contesting my objective. That was all he had left. I had lost 1 Dakkafex, 6x Stealers, and 2x squads of WoN Gaunts (so they were back). I had about 1500 points on the table, he had about 100.

Even in victory, the Tau got shot apart.