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(I would like for everyone to know it took every ounce of restraint to not put my name as part of the thread and to be humble for a change)

But since that is impossible were going to call it CKO'S Drawing Board


After reading some reports from various players(shep & akaiyou), and reading peoples opinions on the new Tyranid Codex, I have come to the conclusion that the way I plan on using the nids is totally different from everyone else.

I think I may have figured out how Nid players can change the metagame. It is very simple and it doesnt have a name(). To change the game we need to multi-charge, I dont mean one unit charging 2 units, I mean several units charging several things at once.

First inorder to change the metagame you must know the metagame which is mech. I know what your thinking you cant win against mech list with close combat. However lets take a look at the facts against vehicles and cc.

If a vehicle does not move you autohit, some vehicles will not move because they want to fire that multi-melta or that vet autocannon out of the top. If the vehicle moved 6 inches you have a 50% chance of hitting the vehicle, if the vehicle moved more then that you need sixes. However the main thing is that all cc attacks are against the rear av which means we need a str of 4 to hurt most vehicles rear armour of 10.

However odds are stack against you according vets, so what is it that we have in our codex that makes it easier to hurt vehicles in cc? Furious charge, rending, scything talons, and MCS all can be used to take out vehicles. Furious charge gives our str 3 critters the chance to glance and our str 4 a chance to pen. Who has access to furious charge you ask, everything(almost). Rending turns all sixes into pens against all rear av 10 vehicles, scything talons increases the number of hits drastically depending on the set up.

The main reason why we can take on mech is our MCS. They all have str 6 or higher and they get 2d6 added on to that. So if there was a creature that had 7 attacks on the charge that got to reroll misses and had to beat av 10 with 6+2d6 hitting on 4's heck lets make it worse hitting on sixes, I think we all know we can atleast get 2 hits which should result in 2 pens.

However those are the big creatures, the small creatures can only glance. A glance can stop the vehicle from shooting or moving which means your MCS are that much more dangerous next turn because they are not being shot at.

Getting tired of writing(reason why its called drawing board), I am going to draw how the nids can change the game.

Nids
G=Gaunts
W=Warriors
T=Trygon

Guard
C=Chimera
L=Leman Russ
M=Manticore


1st Turn-We set up as close as possible Gaunts providing cover for the warriors. We will move then run, then get shot to pieces.

1st
WWW
GGG


LL
CCCM

2nd Turn-We lost an entire warrior squad and a large gaunt squad, however 2 trygons appear. Place them in a position to where they can provide support for one another, and far enough away from multiple mechvet squad ranges. This way with terrain other vehicles etc, they will not be able to put all 16 of there meltaguns in you at one time.

2nd Turn(dashes are needed for some reason)
WW
GG
----T
LL
CCCM---T

Turn 3-We are in charge range warriors + gaunts attack vehicles, while the 2 trygons take advantage of fleet and also attack, while another one appears.

3rd Turn
WGG
WLLT T
CCCMT

Turn 4
Yum Yum Eat'em UP(I like that thats the nick name)
No seriously the chimera could burn gaunts the vets could hurt some more nids but at this point its yum yum eat'em up.

I know its not that simple to pull off but it can work. This is how Nids should be played and is how nids can change the game.

This is the theory it can be made harsher when you add in more stuff such as the Ant Bed which is gaunts in a spore.(B).

Turn 2
WW
GG
(---T)
BLL
CCCM--T

It can get even better if you add zoanthropes(only shooting I would even consider taken) considering the lance weapon will be in range around turn 3. Then there is the mawloc who needs a 4 to glance most vehicles when it shows up, or we can get in your face really fast with all the jump infantry we have.

Basically attacking all at once is the key, I just demonstrated how it works and it can be done, but this is just the drawing board.

However the thought of 1 turn of pure cc that cripples your opponent is well very fluffy for the nids.

The problem is that one pure turn of pure CC doesn't cripple mech. One turn of pure CC opens some transports (They're all shuffling around so you always hit on 4+) and gets you shot. Again. By pretty much the whole army. Minus a few Chimeras.

You need need need to open transports at range and then shoot/charge the contents. That's how it works.

What doesn't work is walk up (getting shot all the way by the opponent's undamaged army), kill transports (oh no, my Rhino's dead, what now?), stand there (to get shot/charged again), assault the contents that you got out, blaze through them, get shot again, and repeat. They get 3 shots at you for each round of meaningful CC (and this is assuming you'll have your whole army in charge range turn 2).

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:What doesn't work is walk up (getting shot all the way by the opponent's undamaged army)

You will recieve cover saves the whole time, so half of those wounds will be saved.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:kill transports (oh no, my Rhino's dead, what now?), stand there (to get shot/charged again),

The tactical squad or grey hunter unit fire their meltaguns and bolters at something then die next turn.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:assault the contents that you got out, blaze through them, get shot again, and repeat. They get 3 shots at you for each round of meaningful CC (and this is assuming you'll have your whole army in charge range turn 2).

Do you think it is possible to kill multiple mcs and large swarms when most of your vehicles are glanced or destroyed?

When you get hit by the nids, you will have 1 shooting phase to respond? With vehicles glanced/destroyed multiple targets to attack more tyranid units arriving via spores or just getting closer from deployment, zoanthropes blowing up vehicles good luck surviving.

Its not exactly revolutionary. All you are basically trying to do is coordinate the attack of your main body with the attacks of your flanking elements to swamp the length of the enemy line and create favorable matchups for your assaults so that your opponent can not respond effectively. It works very well against opponents who deploy in a linear formation, allowing your gaunts and warriors to pick off exposed transports/infantry in the center while the deep striking MCs overwhelm the flanks. You do not account for opponents who deploy in depth or use their shaken transports to block assault lines to the infantry or funnel your deep striking MCs to unfavorable spots by limiting their placement options. You also do not account for an opponents range, speed, and manuever capabilities to exploit the weaknesses of the Gaunts.

Excellent points but these are not all my units, you have to take into account I will have zoanthropes which will be advancing aswell taking care of vehicles as the swarm approaches. There are holes to be filled, it will take time but I can make it work.

I fail to see anything interesting or valuable about this thread. "You can kill vehicles by charging them?" Yes, correct? Also, this tactic can be very easily countered by semi-mech armies, or even by some mech armies. I don't think that this is as good as you think-- feel free to prove me wrong, though!

think I may have figured out how Nid players can change the metagame. It is very simple and it doesnt have a name(). To change the game we need to multi-charge, I dont mean one unit charging 2 units, I mean several units charging several things at once.

-I think you should wait till you have the codex in hand or pdf and some play test games before you say this. Also, attacking multiple targets at once is nothing new especialy with nids. You would see a lot of this in previous editions. Its because of nidzilla that maybe you havent seen it as much. Just consider this 5th edition is very mobile thus why the new codex tried(believe it did too) to improve their fast attack options and gave nids drop pods(not fast i know but..MC near assault range!quicker). If you really want to be an all assault army that can attack everything at once and quick you might look into assault troops. Also the new trygons or whichever MC they took from tremors is overrated. those things are going to be one trick pony..my 2 cents.

You cant build up enough pressure to play competitively with the new Tyranids. Winged Tyrants are too expensive and everything outside fast attack needs two rounds to get into close combat (deep strike round 2, assault round 3 or run round 1+2, assault round 3). The old tyranids had the same problem but they could compensate for that with shotting power and resilence. With 2+ armour and dakkafexe gone, they are left without options. Only the Tervigon and the Swarm Guard are good enough to hold up against Space Wolves and Imperial Guard.

Well that plan could work... but doesn't exactly cut it when your facing CC armies (Space wolves), other horde melee armies (orcs), and the like. Hell, I played old nids exactly like the new nids are played; shoot the vehicles, stuff pops out, charge in with genestealers/gaunts/warriors/carnifexes. Its not hard lolz

Ringer wrote:You cant build up enough pressure to play competitively with the new Tyranids.

How about, you know...we wait for people to actually try out lists before we make such bold conclusions.

Night Lords wrote:

Ringer wrote:You cant build up enough pressure to play competitively with the new Tyranids.

How about, you know...we wait for people to actually try out lists before we make such bold conclusions.

People have been trying out lists for weeks now, where have you been?

Ahh right, I forgot, the codex has been mastered in 2 weeks. How absent minded of me...

@OP, While I applaud you for trying to take a different approach to nids I just don't see how effective pure CC is going to be. You using mech vets as your match up. Nids will change the metagame slighlty. You will seem more plasma in IG armies. You aare starting to see lots of infantry platoons showing up instead of 6 mech vet squads. MCs greatest weakness IMO are large amounts of infantry. Your drop your trygon and my 20 - 30 man blog squad of IG with commisar charge him. Stupid you say, I reply with no you are now locked in combat with at least 3 power weapons and stubborn unit that reroll leadership tests. I will bring you down it will take a while bug I'm not going anywhere. Also you say your guants will provide cover to the warriors, are you sure about that? Manticores firing indirectly ignore that cover, also valks missile pods ignore all cover. I don't think you can theoryhammer something like this. You just need to test it out. For example I personally thing sporepodding in a huge unit of warriors in cover is a powerful tactic to hold an abjective, but I won't know how good it is till I try.

Night Lords wrote:Ahh right, I forgot, the codex has been mastered in 2 weeks. How absent minded of me...

I don't remember saying it was mastered (hint: because I didn't), however an experienced play can gain a lot of knowledge through moderate playtesting of a new book. Look at the IG codex, for example. The same lists that were theory-hammered and tested before the book was even released are more or less the same ones performing well today (mech vets, for example).

Sorry in advance for the hijack of this thread, but IdonÄ#t want to clutter the forum all up.

I feature an all-melee nid army with only zoanthropes as shooting. The tactic I have to use may go in a similar direction as the OP suggested, but I'm unsure if I can bring enough bodies to saturate shooty armies enough until I get to their lines. Mech armies will be a pain, too.

So what do you folks of dakka suggest when you haven't got Hive Guards, Tyrannofexes, shooty carnifexes, dakka warriors and termagants to your disposal?

I plan to (and used to) field stuff like melee carnifexes (with or without pod), flying tyrants, trygon(s), dropping spore mines, lictors, raeners, hormagants and melee warriors. Any ideas?

Greets
Schepp himself

Ringer wrote:You cant build up enough pressure to play competitively with the new Tyranids. Winged Tyrants are too expensive and everything outside fast attack needs two rounds to get into close combat (deep strike round 2, assault round 3 or run round 1+2, assault round 3). The old tyranids had the same problem but they could compensate for that with shotting power and resilence. With 2+ armour and dakkafexe gone, they are left without options. Only the Tervigon and the Swarm Guard are good enough to hold up against Space Wolves and Imperial Guard.

Infiltrating Fleet Genestealers are troops that can hit CC on round 2. And will typically get shot up, but I wonder how a list with them as troops, and a ton of winged support - Gargoyles, Shrikes, Flyrant or Parasite - might do for target saturation. They'll take losses on the way in, but enough cover or carefully chosen routes, and whatever gets through can do some serious damage. You can make it a bit more viable with something to try and peel folks out of transpots, whether Hive Guard or Deep Striking anti-tank (podding Zoanthropes, Trygons, etc), and that seems a reasonable concept for an army. No idea whether it is tourney viable - it is likely too vulnerable to several specific builds - but could be a fun army to play, that can potentially land a devestating turn 2 assault.

Danny Internets wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Ahh right, I forgot, the codex has been mastered in 2 weeks. How absent minded of me...

I don't remember saying it was mastered (hint: because I didn't)

No, you didnt. The person I was quoting did when he stated "there is no way to play competitively as Nids". What you did was come in here, took my sentence out of context (thinking I somehow implied the new codex has yet to be used, which is ridiculous), and in doing so implied that you agree with him.

Schepp himself wrote:Sorry in advance for the hijack of this thread, but IdonÄ#t want to clutter the forum all up.

I feature an all-melee nid army with only zoanthropes as shooting. The tactic I have to use may go in a similar direction as the OP suggested, but I'm unsure if I can bring enough bodies to saturate shooty armies enough until I get to their lines. Mech armies will be a pain, too.

So what do you folks of dakka suggest when you haven't got Hive Guards, Tyrannofexes, shooty carnifexes, dakka warriors and termagants to your disposal?

I plan to (and used to) field stuff like melee carnifexes (with or without pod), flying tyrants, trygon(s), dropping spore mines, lictors, raeners, hormagants and melee warriors. Any ideas?

Greets
Schepp himself

Yes, the ability of the lictors to show up where you want them to is an ability that is very valuable, but what elite choice would you give up?

You know, a while back an experienced tournament player (Green Blow Fly) suggest that he had not been previously aware that Shaken results on tranports prevented the passengers from shooting from its fire points. Even Daemonic Possession does not prevent this, and explicitly warns players.

And recently I'd been moving away from full mechanization for precisely that reason: sure it protects your transportees, but at the cost of your own ability to attack and thus control the board. Camping in transports is okay, unless the enemy can at least glance your vehicles on a regular basis...

While reading through this thread those two thoughts collided in my head and its occurred to me why people are so hung up on mechanized armies in the 5th edition, because they'd not aware of how vulnerable mechanized armies are.

On a glancing hit, 2/3 ordinary (non-AP1) damage rolls are going to be Shaken or Stunned. Either way, regardless of extra armour, the vehicle is not going to be able to shoot and its passengers are not going to be able to shoot. Similarly 2/3 of penetrating hits will prevent the vehicle from firing in the next turn, although only 1/3 will prevent embarked passengers from firing since those will be the Stunned/Shaken results rather than Destroyed results.

For Tyranids these Stunned/Shaken results will be almost as important as Destroyed results, equal to Immobilised results, and better than Weapon Destroyed results. If a vehicle can be immobilised, then it'll be meat. If a vehicle and its passengers can't shoot, that's a respite for the Tyranids.

The Venom Cannon and whatever replaces it on the bigger bugs will be very useful as a suppression device. Don't rely on it to destroy vehicles, but use it to suppress them to either drive their passengers into the open, or to neutralize them while you get around to destroying them.

CKO wrote:

Schepp himself wrote:Sorry in advance for the hijack of this thread, but IdonÄ#t want to clutter the forum all up.

I feature an all-melee nid army with only zoanthropes as shooting. The tactic I have to use may go in a similar direction as the OP suggested, but I'm unsure if I can bring enough bodies to saturate shooty armies enough until I get to their lines. Mech armies will be a pain, too.

So what do you folks of dakka suggest when you haven't got Hive Guards, Tyrannofexes, shooty carnifexes, dakka warriors and termagants to your disposal?

I plan to (and used to) field stuff like melee carnifexes (with or without pod), flying tyrants, trygon(s), dropping spore mines, lictors, raeners, hormagants and melee warriors. Any ideas?

Greets
Schepp himself

Yes, the ability of the lictors to show up where you want them to is an ability that is very valuable, but what elite choice would you give up?

Avoid the lictors. Here is something that would be fun:

Use whatever HQ you want, (I would recommend Swarmlord for the +1 reserves rolls)
for your elites, field 9 Zoanthropes. All in drop pods.
As many hormagaunts / warriors as you want. Maybe Pod a few.
As many ravenors as you want
A trygon? Not sure on these guys yet. They seem awesome but have this tatoo on their forehead... "Melta's here, please!"


Deep striker the ravenors, and then pod the zoes somewhere close by (Synapse is important for ravenors now at their low leadership.) Basicly, get as close to your enemy as you can with those pods so those zoanthropes can shoot the crap out of any vehicles they have. Then, improvise.

I think you'll have at least moderate success there, if not better. Zoanthropes are a pain to kill with their ward saves, and with the reserves rolls you'll be able to drop a lot all at once. Don't forget those pods have some nice tentacles as well...

Nurglitch wrote:You know, a while back an experienced tournament player (Green Blow Fly) suggest that he had not been previously aware that Shaken results on tranports prevented the passengers from shooting from its fire points. Even Daemonic Possession does not prevent this, and explicitly warns players.

And recently I'd been moving away from full mechanization for precisely that reason: sure it protects your transportees, but at the cost of your own ability to attack and thus control the board. Camping in transports is okay, unless the enemy can at least glance your vehicles on a regular basis...

While reading through this thread those two thoughts collided in my head and its occurred to me why people are so hung up on mechanized armies in the 5th edition, because they'd not aware of how vulnerable mechanized armies are.

On a glancing hit, 2/3 ordinary (non-AP1) damage rolls are going to be Shaken or Stunned. Either way, regardless of extra armour, the vehicle is not going to be able to shoot and its passengers are not going to be able to shoot. Similarly 2/3 of penetrating hits will prevent the vehicle from firing in the next turn, although only 1/3 will prevent embarked passengers from firing since those will be the Stunned/Shaken results rather than Destroyed results.

For Tyranids these Stunned/Shaken results will be almost as important as Destroyed results, equal to Immobilised results, and better than Weapon Destroyed results. If a vehicle can be immobilised, then it'll be meat. If a vehicle and its passengers can't shoot, that's a respite for the Tyranids.

The Venom Cannon and whatever replaces it on the bigger bugs will be very useful as a suppression device. Don't rely on it to destroy vehicles, but use it to suppress them to either drive their passengers into the open, or to neutralize them while you get around to destroying them.

Totally agree. You cannot prevent dismounted infantry from firing short of killing them all, tieing them up in an assault or getting to actually fall back from a morale check. You can suppress Rhinos and Chimeras fairly easily however, which also prevents the embarked infantry from firing at full effect. They either do not shoot at all if they remain embarked or they fire as if moving when they disembark. Its not necessarily bad if you have a bunch of assault or rapid fire weapons, but it does take heavy weapons out of the equation. I think Tyranids will destroy completely mech armies provided they have a strong dismount contigent supported by outflankers/pods. Venom cannons will be able to suppress transports long enough for the Tyranid infantry to close. If you want to trade a Tactical squad or a Vet squad to kill a single MC or (replacable) Gaunt squad, be my guest. That trade is completely in the Tyranids favor, especially since the new codex offers alot of redundancy and synergy.

Nurglitch wrote:You know, a while back an experienced tournament player (Green Blow Fly) suggest that he had not been previously aware that Shaken results on tranports prevented the passengers from shooting from its fire points. Even Daemonic Possession does not prevent this, and explicitly warns players.

And recently I'd been moving away from full mechanization for precisely that reason: sure it protects your transportees, but at the cost of your own ability to attack and thus control the board. Camping in transports is okay, unless the enemy can at least glance your vehicles on a regular basis...

While reading through this thread those two thoughts collided in my head and its occurred to me why people are so hung up on mechanized armies in the 5th edition, because they'd not aware of how vulnerable mechanized armies are.

On a glancing hit, 2/3 ordinary (non-AP1) damage rolls are going to be Shaken or Stunned. Either way, regardless of extra armour, the vehicle is not going to be able to shoot and its passengers are not going to be able to shoot. Similarly 2/3 of penetrating hits will prevent the vehicle from firing in the next turn, although only 1/3 will prevent embarked passengers from firing since those will be the Stunned/Shaken results rather than Destroyed results.

For Tyranids these Stunned/Shaken results will be almost as important as Destroyed results, equal to Immobilised results, and better than Weapon Destroyed results. If a vehicle can be immobilised, then it'll be meat. If a vehicle and its passengers can't shoot, that's a respite for the Tyranids.

The Venom Cannon and whatever replaces it on the bigger bugs will be very useful as a suppression device. Don't rely on it to destroy vehicles, but use it to suppress them to either drive their passengers into the open, or to neutralize them while you get around to destroying them.

I feel that this is about the only piece of worthwhile and trustworthy advice that has been given in this entire thread. -golf clap-

This, or something like it, is the key principle that makes long-range anti-tank far better than people once thought. When 5th edition came out, people did the calculations and found that lascannons and the like were not reliable tank killing mechanisms. This is correct. However, it's not the full story. In most cases, you do not actually have to kill the enemy tank in order to neutralize it, at least for the next turn. In fact, one or two hits are usually sufficient, especially when dealing with shooty tanks. Transports can be slightly more problematic, but if you have enough assault power or anti-infantry shooting to prevent the enemy from safely disembarking, most of those shouldn't present that much of a threat either.

This has definitely been the case for me

I agree completely with Nurglitch. Semi-mech is the "big secret" of 5th edition

The problem with the OP's idea was a lack of ranged anti tank.

Schepp himself wrote:Sorry in advance for the hijack of this thread, but IdonÄ#t want to clutter the forum all up.

I feature an all-melee nid army with only zoanthropes as shooting. The tactic I have to use may go in a similar direction as the OP suggested, but I'm unsure if I can bring enough bodies to saturate shooty armies enough until I get to their lines. Mech armies will be a pain, too.

So what do you folks of dakka suggest when you haven't got Hive Guards, Tyrannofexes, shooty carnifexes, dakka warriors and termagants to your disposal?

I plan to (and used to) field stuff like melee carnifexes (with or without pod), flying tyrants, trygon(s), dropping spore mines, lictors, raeners, hormagants and melee warriors. Any ideas?

Greets
Schepp himself

Well, I suggest you use all the tools at your disposal instead of pulling your punches and complaining that you're getting shot off the board. Even Orks use their sluggaz.

Broken Loose wrote:

Schepp himself wrote:Sorry in advance for the hijack of this thread, but IdonÄ#t want to clutter the forum all up.

I feature an all-melee nid army with only zoanthropes as shooting. The tactic I have to use may go in a similar direction as the OP suggested, but I'm unsure if I can bring enough bodies to saturate shooty armies enough until I get to their lines. Mech armies will be a pain, too.

So what do you folks of dakka suggest when you haven't got Hive Guards, Tyrannofexes, shooty carnifexes, dakka warriors and termagants to your disposal?

I plan to (and used to) field stuff like melee carnifexes (with or without pod), flying tyrants, trygon(s), dropping spore mines, lictors, raeners, hormagants and melee warriors. Any ideas?

Greets
Schepp himself

Well, I suggest you use all the tools at your disposal instead of pulling your punches and complaining that you're getting shot off the board. Even Orks use their sluggaz.

Are you suggesting that I stop playing my themed army? I can't quite decipher your message there...

Greets
Schepp himself

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:I agree completely with Nurglitch. Semi-mech is the "big secret" of 5th edition

The problem with the OP's idea was a lack of ranged anti tank.

No the problem with the op's idea(me) is that Nid's shooting is not design to kill, its design to stall. Your goal is to stop stuff from shooting at you while you approach, that is why the venom cannon is now better in my eyes. Now that I know the purpose of the heavy venom cannon I can use it to help accomplish the goal of this style of play.

I still don't know if it'll be that effective... You still don't have anything that shoots better than a 4+ except for the hive guard and zoanthrope. All the venom cannons still are in the hands of BS3 models, which is why I didn't bother taking them. It's a blast template, which is good, but still only has 1 shot. My scatter dice are pretty good, but it still seems like a big gamble.

Especially since they're quite pricey and take options off of other units that seem to be better suited to other roles. Except for maybe a 3 man unit of carnifexes with them. But then you're already paying over 600 points for 3 S9 shots that can only fire at 1 tank because they're a unit now.

Its different I admit, but its all about target priority.

If your opponent has an executioner, and your able to keep it glanced until you can get to it. I think the heavy venom cannon has done its job.