New Nids For The Win!

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**Grunt_For_Christ**

But is keeping a single tank glanced for a cost of 600 points really worth it? If you put it on a tyrant or something there's a 50% chance it'll miss and do nothing. If you put it on one carnifex, then you have to put it on all of them... It seems like there isn't much middle ground in this new codex. Personally, for dealing with tanks, I'm liking the looks of the tyrannofex more and more. 12" more range, 1 more shot, and it's S 10. I just don't like the fact it's a land raider... What's a norn queen to do.

**brassangel**

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:But is keeping a single tank glanced for a cost of 600 points really worth it? If you put it on a tyrant or something there's a 50% chance it'll miss and do nothing. If you put it on one carnifex, then you have to put it on all of them... It seems like there isn't much middle ground in this new codex. Personally, for dealing with tanks, I'm liking the looks of the tyrannofex more and more. 12" more range, 1 more shot, and it's S 10. I just don't like the fact it's a land raider... What's a norn queen to do.

Yes, it's totally worth it. It probably only needs to be glanced 1-2 times before something gets to it that can tear it down. Then the 500-600 points of Fexen will shoot slimey beetles at something else. Or, they will then ram into some CC of their own.

Stalling those tanks will save hundreds of Tyranids points and set up great spore and flanking situations for them, where 'stealers, Raveners, Warriors, and Trygons/Mawlocs can eat things.

They are a completely different army than any other, and they have even changed dramatically from previous iterations of themselves. There aren't going to be any TH/SS obvious answers for them. It's all about combos and synergy.

P.S. I've tabled every mech army I've played in 5th edition. Even using vanilla CSM on foot, I've tabled mech.

**Grunt_For_Christ**

If you stall a vehicle in one turn they won't be shooting slimy beetles at anything else the next turn, because that vehicle will be moving & shooting and they'll have to stop it... Again.

**Deuce11**

PanzerLeader wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:You know, a while back an experienced tournament player (Green Blow Fly) suggest that he had not been previously aware that Shaken results on tranports prevented the passengers from shooting from its fire points. Even Daemonic Possession does not prevent this, and explicitly warns players.

And recently I'd been moving away from full mechanization for precisely that reason: sure it protects your transportees, but at the cost of your own ability to attack and thus control the board. Camping in transports is okay, unless the enemy can at least glance your vehicles on a regular basis...

While reading through this thread those two thoughts collided in my head and its occurred to me why people are so hung up on mechanized armies in the 5th edition, because they'd not aware of how vulnerable mechanized armies are.

On a glancing hit, 2/3 ordinary (non-AP1) damage rolls are going to be Shaken or Stunned. Either way, regardless of extra armour, the vehicle is not going to be able to shoot and its passengers are not going to be able to shoot. Similarly 2/3 of penetrating hits will prevent the vehicle from firing in the next turn, although only 1/3 will prevent embarked passengers from firing since those will be the Stunned/Shaken results rather than Destroyed results.

For Tyranids these Stunned/Shaken results will be almost as important as Destroyed results, equal to Immobilised results, and better than Weapon Destroyed results. If a vehicle can be immobilised, then it'll be meat. If a vehicle and its passengers can't shoot, that's a respite for the Tyranids.

The Venom Cannon and whatever replaces it on the bigger bugs will be very useful as a suppression device. Don't rely on it to destroy vehicles, but use it to suppress them to either drive their passengers into the open, or to neutralize them while you get around to destroying them.

Totally agree. You cannot prevent dismounted infantry from firing short of killing them all, tieing them up in an assault or getting to actually fall back from a morale check. You can suppress Rhinos and Chimeras fairly easily however, which also prevents the embarked infantry from firing at full effect. They either do not shoot at all if they remain embarked or they fire as if moving when they disembark. Its not necessarily bad if you have a bunch of assault or rapid fire weapons, but it does take heavy weapons out of the equation. I think Tyranids will destroy completely mech armies provided they have a strong dismount contigent supported by outflankers/pods. Venom cannons will be able to suppress transports long enough for the Tyranid infantry to close. If you want to trade a Tactical squad or a Vet squad to kill a single MC or (replacable) Gaunt squad, be my guest. That trade is completely in the Tyranids favor, especially since the new codex offers alot of redundancy and synergy.

This is why I don't think Rhinos fail to cut it anymore. Armies are getting so fast that you must meet the threat head on. Its my opinion Razorbacks (possibly with the TL assault cannon upgrade) are the way to go. Combat squad and let the heavy choice hang back taking pot shots while the serg. and special move to mid-board and shoot bugs apart from any direction. Or use them to make a strong gun line in the deployment zone.

**wuestenfux**

This is why I don't think Rhinos fail to cut it anymore. Armies are getting so fast that you must meet the threat head on. Its my opinion Razorbacks (possibly with the TL assault cannon upgrade) are the way to go. Combat squad and let the heavy choice hang back taking pot shots while the serg. and special move to mid-board and shoot bugs apart from any direction. Or use them to make a strong gun line in the deployment zone.

In fact, Razorbacks with assault cannons and combat squadded units incl Sergeants with combi-weapons
seems the way to go for Tacticals vs. Nids.

**Grunt_For_Christ**

And with the total lack of invulnerable saves, the whorish amount of melta & plasma will be even that much more effective.

**Nurglitch**

They'll only be effective if people keep obsessing about the big bugs in the list. So far the math seems to point very strongly to hordes of little bugs. Apparently 11 Hormagaunts will shred a unit of Assault Terminators, for example.

**brassangel**

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:If you stall a vehicle in one turn they won't be shooting slimy beetles at anything else the next turn, because that vehicle will be moving & shooting and they'll have to stop it... Again.

You are incorrect. If I stall it, it's stalled (and therefore, useless) during the opponent's turn. It's a roadblock that messes up their plans for mobility and objective claiming. During my next turn - when that vehicle won't be doing anything - I can spore in my killy units, or bring in something from reserve with Rending like a Lictor, Genestealers, or a massive beastie from underground. Either way, I'm killing stuff, probably in CC, and now that tanks ability to shoot next turn will be irrelevant anyway. Either because I get to it and kill it, or because it can't shoot into combat. Furthermore, the area is now clogged, making it far more difficult for said opponent to move the little tin can around.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:And with the total lack of invulnerable saves, the whorish amount of melta & plasma will be even that much more effective.

That's a totally overblown assumption. You're really going to get within 12" of Tyranid Warriors to fire 1 melta gun at them? To kill 1 and hope for a miracle round of bolter fire from 4 other marines? Or to MAYBE hit and wound with a Plasma Gun? That unit of Marines then gets charged and destroyed next turn.

Plasma and meltas against MC's? Great. 1 wound at a time. Roll 6's for those supporting boltguns too. Next turn, my MC with 3-5 remaining wounds munches a Land Raider or wipes out the misquito-like squad.

Or the guns on the Warriors and/or MC's render that Razorback/Rhino useless for a turn anyway while I kill everything that's on foot.

See, it's easy to make generalized sweeping statements.

Nurglitch wrote:They'll only be effective if people keep obsessing about the big bugs in the list. So far the math seems to point very strongly to hordes of little bugs. Apparently 11 Hormagaunts will shred a unit of Assault Terminators, for example.

No, those Hormagaunts will get annihilated by TH/SS Terminators unless they have support. But for the points, they may provide some gum.

**Therion**

This is why I don't think Rhinos fail to cut it anymore. Armies are getting so fast that you must meet the threat head on. Its my opinion Razorbacks (possibly with the TL assault cannon upgrade) are the way to go

They'll only be effective if people keep obsessing about the big bugs in the list. So far the math seems to point very strongly to hordes of little bugs.

A Rune Priest, three Dreadnoughts, six squads of GH with six flamers in six las/plas Razorbacks, three Land Speeders and three Dakka Predators cost 1750 points. It's one of my pretty basic against all comers SW lists which seems quite capable of dealing with the new Nids, atleast on paper.

**Nurglitch**

brassangel:

I'm pretty sure that the numbers favour the Hormagaunts. I'll see if I can dig up the calculations for you.