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Hi all. I was hoping to get some opinions on this list I made for a casual-play (possibly semi-competitive?) IG army.

HQ-50pts
-2 Body guards - 30pts
-Master of Ordinance-30pts

Veteran Squad #1 - 70pts
- Power Weapon - 10pts
- 2 Melta Guns - 20pts
- 1 Plasma Gun - 15pts
- Grenadiers Doctrine - 30pts

Veteran Squad #2 - 70pts
- Power Weapon - 10pts
- 2 Melta Guns - 20pts
- 1 Plasma Gun - 15pts
- Grenadiers Doctrine - 30pts

Ratling Squad (5) - 50pts

2 Dedicated Chimeras for my Vets - 110pts
- Both have Pintle Mounted Storm Bolters - 20pts
- Both have Extra Armor - 30pts

Valkyrie Assault Carrier - 100pts
- 2 Multiple Rocket Pods - 30pts
- Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 10pts

2 Basilisks - 250pts

So I guess my idea was to have the vets take out either heavy armor and capture points in their chimeras, while the Basilisks/Valkyrie focus on destroying enemy grunts/heavy infantry. The HQ would stay back and defend the Basilisks from possible infiltrators (not sure yet).
Well, what do you all think?

WhiteWolf01 wrote:HQ-50pts
-2 Body guards - 30pts
-Master of Ordinance-30pts

Bodyguards are cool, but only if you have something in your CCS worth protecting... which you don't. 30pts is a lot considering all the other IG options. Either add something to the CCS worth having, or drop the bodyguards and put the points elsewhere.

MoO is probably the single biggest waste of points in the IG codex. Read my other post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/263006.page#1082426

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Veteran Squad #1 - 70pts
- Power Weapon - 10pts
- 2 Melta Guns - 20pts
- 1 Plasma Gun - 15pts
- Grenadiers Doctrine - 30pts

Veteran Squad #2 - 70pts
- Power Weapon - 10pts
- 2 Melta Guns - 20pts
- 1 Plasma Gun - 15pts
- Grenadiers Doctrine - 30pts

Humans have WS3, most races that are going to fight you in melee will have more than that, so assume you are going to lose a lot of attacks in melee. What few hits you get are going be lost, because S3 is far from impressive, and most other races you will be fighting in melee have T3 or better. So a few attacks, fewer hits, and even fewer wounds... a power weapon is pretty much a huge waste. Throw in the fact that a 10man squad of humans probably won't survive through an entire assault phase, and you can understand why that not only is melee the LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO WITH HUMAN TROOPS, but wasting 10pts on something that won't benefit you is a bad idea. If you are going to take a power weapon, spend the extra 5 pts on a power fist, so you can have S6, which will let you wound in melee. But personally I would say push for IG strength with ranged firepower. Drop the melee weapons in general.

Melta/Plasma is awful. Not that they are bad independantly, but mixing weapons is almost always a poor choice. It makes it so your squad is less good at what it could be good at. Melta fire at 12" (6" if you wanna melta); Plasma 24" unless you wanna rapid fire. One is good for MEQ and TEQ, the other is good for Av14. The basic idea being that if you use the melta, you waste the plasma shots. If you use the plasma shots, you waste the melta. You have multiple squads, specialize. Have one with melta, one with plasma.

Grenadiers is good if you wanna be in melee, but like I said before... melee is really the last place you want to be. EVER. You will lose. And regardless of if you believe me or not... there are better ways to fight with IG than melee, no one can deny our strengths are being at range with our armor... not melee. Also consider that except in melee (where you don't get cover saves) IG perform way better with cover saves. Not only do a lot of our units get bonuses to cover via camo cloaks and like upgrades, but we go to ground often, giving us further bonuses. We have orders that allow us to get +2 bonus to cover for going to ground, and we have orders that allow us to recover from going to ground. Considering that most cover on a table will be 4+, paying 30pts for 4+ armor saves is just silly, when you get the cover version for free. Also, you can't AP cover saves.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Ratling Squad (5) - 50pts

Good squad, works well against most things. Goal is not to get wounds here... but to pin and tie up squads that you need to keep quiet for a while.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:2 Dedicated Chimeras for my Vets - 110pts
- Both have Pintle Mounted Storm Bolters - 20pts
- Both have Extra Armor - 30pts

You should list this with the Vets squads, so people know they are dedicated...

Stormbolters are fine. Generally people find better places to spend 10 pts, but that is preference.

Extra Armor is sorta silly, it only helps you very very rarely. Dozer blade would be a better upgrade, as you drive through more cover than you will ever get 2s on the damage table. Personally I never really found anything wrong with a bare Chimera. Save yourself some more points.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Valkyrie Assault Carrier - 100pts
- 2 Multiple Rocket Pods - 30pts
- Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 10pts

Yes! Great Vehicle. Drop the heavy bolters. MRPs are S4, meaning they are defensive weapons. After moving 12" as a fast skimmer a Valk can fire its primary MM and any of its defensive weapons. This incudes both MRPs, but would not include the HBs. Basically the Valk is a Fast Skimmer... it can move 24" in a turn. THAT'S HUGE. The only time you would ever be able to use the heavy bolters is if you moved 6". But if you are going to move 6" a lot, then you are wasting one of the main strengths of the Valk... and shouldn't have taken it.

Also, but vets in this, not your CCS. Give the CCS the Chimera. This will allow the Valk to be a scoring unit while it has Vets inside, so you can fly around and capture points, and drop off the vets before going to do something else.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:2 Basilisks - 250pts

Very flimsy tank, open topped, light light armor. You don't really have much in this army to protect your basilisks from being assaulted or shot at. 3' minimum range if you fire barrage is tough, so you lose a lot of the cool from not being able to fire barrage very often. Other than the fact you are going to lose these tanks early in the game... they are awesome. I would possibly recommend taking at least one of these tanks and turning it into a Leman Russ.

Overall, not a terrible list. Fix up the Vets to drop the melee nonsense. Take those points and get them some heavy weapons, and/or specialize the special weapons to all melta, or all plasma. I am not a huge fan of melta however, so I would recommend something more like a lascannon, or a Russ or Basilisk for anti vehicle. Vets with just grenade launchers is a perfectly viable combonation. Drop grenadiers, take another vets squad... you are pretty light on troops for a 1000pts. Try to work in some Av14.

Awesome, thanks for the feedback. I'll be changing some things quite a bit then. I haven't played to many games, probably 2 or 3 so I'm still getting used to how to actually use my guard. I'll post the new list soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so here's the new list:

HQ
Company Command Squad – 50pts
-Dedicated Chimera – 55pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------105pts

Troops
Veteran Squad #1 – 70pts
- 2 Plasma Gun – 30pts
- Autocannon – 10pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------140pts
Veteran Squad #2 – 70pts
- 2 Plasma Gun – 30pts
- Autocannon – 10pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------140pts
Veteran Squad #2 – 70pts
- 3 Grenade Launchers – 15pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------115pts

Elites
Ratling Squad – 30pt
- 2 Extra Ratlings – 20pts
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------50pts

Fast Attack
2 - Valkyrie Assault Carriers – 200pts
- Both with Multiple Rocket Pods – 60pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------260pts

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150pts
- Plasma Cannons – 40pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------190pts


So I have a few questions:
1. Should I drop the Leman Russ for another Valk?
2. Is the autocannon a good mix with the plasma guns?
3. Should I take Plasma Cannons on the Russ or put the points elsewhere (possibly another Ratling Squad)?

I basically agree with everything Lathrop said. Its not a bad list, definitely a good start. You have to be very careful with upgrades with the Guard, and I'd concur there is fat to trim here. More men with guns could be had. Though I would generally support carapace for plasmavets, at 1000pts even giving one squad a doctrine is a tight call.

Doctrines, bodyguards, PW's, valk HB's, 2x chim HS's and EA; all too much fat for 1000pts. Pick a favorite, then drop the rest and some heavy weapons. And upgrade a bassy to a tank. And reorganize those vets along the lines Lath suggested (same weapons).



I'm not as harsh as Lathrop on the MoO - if it hits once it generally makes its points back, and in my experience it usually hits at least once (doing alot more damage than 30pts!) - but at 1000 pts you won't have the big troop formations and vehicle squadrons that help cushion his poor accuracy. I think all of the advisors are expensive, as none of them are really a sure thing, so I don't start bringing them out till at least 1500...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I read that post, Lathrop, I see your threshold for the MoO is 2000 - definitely the goodtimes roll then!

murdog wrote:I'm not as harsh as Lathrop on the MoO - if it hits once it generally makes its points back, and in my experience it usually hits at least once (doing alot more damage than 30pts!) - but at 1000 pts you won't have the big troop formations and vehicle squadrons that help cushion his poor accuracy. I think all of the advisors are expensive, as none of them are really a sure thing, so I don't start bringing them out till at least 1500...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I read that post, Lathrop, I see your threshold for the MoO is 2000 - definitely the goodtimes roll then!

I am going to agree with you that 30pts is not too hard to earn back with a well placed MoO shot. However most things in the IG army are wicked cheap. 30pts can turn into a number of different upgrades, so the question then is simply this: Is the 30pts better spent on a MoO with very spotty reliability OR is it better spent somewhere else? I don't deny that the MoO can cause 30pts of damage, but can something else cause more?

As for the 2000pt threshold, even then I would be iffy... but I have seen an artillery spam Apoc List, with 2 MoO, 6 Basilisk, Baneblade, a few Manticores, and a slew of heavy weapons teams. The MoO were brutal there... as were the rest of the artillery. Mostly because the opponents were a Ork Footslogger, and a Nids player.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:HQ
Company Command Squad – 50pts
-Dedicated Chimera – 55pts

CCS is good, Chimera is good; A CCS has BS4, it is almost a waste to not put a heavy weapon in here to take advantage of their superior BS (although your whole list is BS4... but if you had taken a platoon it wouldn't be).

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Troops
Veteran Squad #1 – 70pts
- 2 Plasma Gun – 30pts
- Autocannon – 10pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts

Veteran Squad #2 – 70pts
- 2 Plasma Gun – 30pts
- Autocannon – 10pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts

You have 2 Valks, which means 2 of these squads are going to be in the Valks. There are no fire points on the Valks, so you can't shoot anything with the squad while they are in the air. So whatever squads you put in the Valks will need to be wicked specialized. The two ways I could see you outfitting a squad would be for a long range support role, or a medium range assaulting role. The long range squad would probably do well with Forward Sentries, and a heavy weapon with 4' range. You would fly out, drop them off at a point away from the enemy... and they would hold that point for the game, while laying down extra fire with the heavy weapon. The medium range squad would benefit from a set of special weapons that can be fired while moving... like plasma... and between the squad and the Valk, you fire at an enemy who is holding an objective and then take the point with the Vets after it has been cleared.

Mixing plasma with the heavy weapon AND a doctrine is a very big point sink... and you have got to remember that IG is one of the weakest armies in the game... in that we are VERY easy to kill. So making a squad cost a lot of points just makes it easier for the enemy to cripple you. Since you are going to be flying in Valks, you gotta really specific... so they can hit the enemy hard as soon as they gravchute in.

Also I would say that plasma, with AP2, probably doesn't mix as well with ACs as you think. ACs mix well with GLs. I would drop the heavy weapons and just fill the squads with 3 plasma each. Move the AC into the CCS, and in the grenade vets.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Veteran Squad #2 – 70pts
- 3 Grenade Launchers – 15pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts

Grenades are fine... probably could pair them up with an autocannon to great success. Don't need a 30pt doctrine for just a squad with grenade launchers. If you added an AC, then you could sit these guys way back near your board edge, holding a point. Then they could use Forward Sentries to stay in cover while protecting your points.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Elites
Ratling Squad – 30pt
- 2 Extra Ratlings – 20pts

The way the list is growing, I feel like these guys really have no point. The list is very mobile, so having a squad to pin enemies is just a waste. I feel like the 50pts could be better spent somewhere else.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Fast Attack
2 - Valkyrie Assault Carriers – 200pts
- Both with Multiple Rocket Pods – 60pts

Perfect. Pretty much all the anti horde you need is right here.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150pts
- Plasma Cannons – 40pts

Plasma sorta makes the tank a point sink, and you can only fire them if the Russ doesn't move.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:So I have a few questions:
1. Should I drop the Leman Russ for another Valk?
2. Is the autocannon a good mix with the plasma guns?
3. Should I take Plasma Cannons on the Russ or put the points elsewhere (possibly another Ratling Squad)?

1) No. At 1000pts a good IG list will have some Av14 in it.
2) AC and plasma is sorta explensive, AC has really low AP compared to plasma. Plasma mixes well with more plasma... ACs mix well with GLs.
3) Plasma on a Russ is tough. They are good weapons, but they have half the range of the main cannon, and you can't fire them unless the Russ stays still. I prefer my tanks to ride with my infantry to give them cover, etc.

Overall, the list just has some synergy problems. You have plenty of anti horde, and plenty of anti MEQ (if you fix/keep the plasma squads). The only thing really missing now is a reliable anti tank weapon. You can probably handle most light armor via autocannons and the Chimera and Valks... but any Av13 or Av14 is going to roll over your army. You need some strength 10 weapons. Some people might recommend melta vets, but I am not a huge fan, because of their incredible short range. Don't over do it, because you probably won't see too much Av14 at 1000pts, and if they have weak back armor... your Valks can flank and take some shots... but at 1000pts you should expect to see at least 1 Av14 tank... so you want to be prepared.

You have 2 Valks, which means 2 of these squads are going to be in the Valks. There are no fire points on the Valks, so you can't shoot anything with the squad while they are in the air. So whatever squads you put in the Valks will need to be wicked specialized. The two ways I could see you outfitting a squad would be for a long range support role, or a medium range assaulting role. The long range squad would probably do well with Forward Sentries, and a heavy weapon with 4' range. You would fly out, drop them off at a point away from the enemy... and they would hold that point for the game, while laying down extra fire with the heavy weapon. The medium range squad would benefit from a set of special weapons that can be fired while moving... like plasma... and between the squad and the Valk, you fire at an enemy who is holding an objective and then take the point with the Vets after it has been cleared.

Heh, it's odd, because the strategy you suggested, Lathrop, was reversed from mine in that I planned to drop the PlasmaVets with Forward sentries onto critical points while my ACs backed them up from the rear, but I see how dropping the ACs at strategic locations could cause some major damage. I realize now I want to get those heavy weapons up and firing (lets say on top of a building or hill) asap. I've always had the problem of losing my squads with heavy weapons to the enemy before I could get into a decent position. But with the Valks I can literally do that turn 1. Although I'm not to partial to the whole grave-chute insertion rules. It seems the way I'm reading it that if any one model fails a dangerous terrain test on a scatter the whole squad dies.

HQ
Company Command Squad – 50pts
- LC – 20pts
-Dedicated Chimera – 55pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------125pts
Troops
Veteran Squad #1 – 70pts
- 2 Plasma Gun – 30pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------100pts
Veteran Squad #2 – 70pts
- 2 Plasma Gun – 30pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------100pts
Veteran Squad #3 – 70pts
- 2 Grenade Launchers – 10pts
- Autocannon – 10pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------120pts
Veteran Squad #4 – 70pts
- 2 Grenade Launchers – 10pts
- Autocannon – 10pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------120pts
Fast Attack
2 - Valkyrie Assault Carrier – 200pts
- 2x Multiple Rocket Pods – 60pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------260pts

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150pts
- (Possibly a Heavy Stubber? – 10pts)
- LC – 15pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------175pts


So as Lathrop said: to use the Valks to drop the Vets with ACs off at distant points while my plasma(they kinda are)Vets will act as my medium range assault/support teams. As for Anti-Av14 I added a lascannon to the Russ and my command squad, but I'm wondering if I should do away with a PlasmaVet squad and the LC in the CCS for a Devil Dog as a dedicated Anti-Av14 piece. Or do you think that would be overdoing it for a 1000pt battle? Granted I feel that a small blast of AP1 Str8 could also deal well with squads of MEQ with the support of my plasma vet squad. Thoughts?

I was saying it was 1 of two things you could do. Take a heavy weapons squad forward, and don't have plasma in it... or take a plasma squad forward, and don't have a heavy in it.

I think the list is still a tad light on anti Av14, as lascannon have a fairly low chance to do any damage... especially the one on the Russ, as it can't be given BiD orders like the one in the CCS. I would almost recommend dropping the las on the Russ.

I wanna say you should try to find a way to skim off some points somewhere, so you can fill out the grenade launchers and plasma in the squads.

Ah, that's what you meant. I'll have to work on it some more then or at least put my list to the test in casual play. I suppose experience is the best teacher. I really want to put my plasma guns to use and see how they'll do so I'll focus on having those in my squads. As for the Anti Av14 I'm still looking for something that can deal with that. I currently can only think of the Demolisher, but I'm wondering if the 24" range will be long enough. Also a Vendetta (but that just seems like a glass cannon trying to get it behind an enemy tank(s) to take them out)...

Ok, so I took the AC out of both Vet Squads. I also turned the Leman Russ into a Demolisher. The only other place I can see taking off points would be the forward sentries, but I really was hoping to use those. I think that not only would they increase my cover saves to a +3 if they're garrisoned inside buildings and such, but the defensive snare mines could come in handy for assaulting enemies.

HQ
Company Command Squad – 50pts
- Dedicated Chimera – 55pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------105pts
Troops
Veteran Squad #1 – 70pts
- 3 Plasma Gun – 45pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------145pts
Veteran Squad #2 – 70pts
- 3 Plasma Gun – 45pts
- Forward Sentries – 30pts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------145pts
Veteran Squad #3 – 70pts
- 3 Grenade Launchers – 15pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------85pts
Veteran Squad #4 – 70pts
- 3 Grenade Launchers – 15pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------85pts
Fast Attack
2 - Valkyrie Assault Carrier – 200pts
- 2x Multiple Rocket Pods – 60pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------260pts

Heavy Support
Demolisher Battle Tank – 165pts
- Heavy Stubber – 10pts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------175pts

Change Hevy Stubber for Lascannon on Demolisher.

I would give the Forward sentries to whatever squads are going to be long range. Since you took out the ACs... now you have nothing that will really benefit from the extra cover. Also keep in mind you can always go to ground via orders for +2 cover... and that 2+ cover is the max you can ever have.

I feel like you should drop stubber, as it really doesn't fit well with the Demolisher cannon... drop the forward sentries... put AC into both GL squads, and give one of the new AC squads forward sentries. Use the extra points to put a heavy weapon into the CCS. I think you should be able to fit a Lascannon.

Ok, cool. Thanks for all the help. Now all I have to do is try it out in actual play.