Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright, I have been playing 40k for a couple of years now, but I don't have a solid basis of understanding of a few of the rules, more a general knowledge. When I utilize my nob bikers, and someone manages to get a flame template to the side of them, wounding six of them, and denying their armor... do I have to remove 3 nob bikers if they are equipped the same? Or am I allowed to spread it out? According to my friend you have to remove the model as soon as you possibly can, so if 2 wounds are done to a unit of 10 nob bikers, that is one nob biker gone? I haven't ever been clear on this, as it seems to me when you are shooting a big unit of burly dudes on bikes it would be difficult to concentrate fire on one at a time. Some clarification on this matter would be most appreciated.

I thought wound allocation was just when you took wounds from being shot at not sprayed with fire/hit by an explosion? Templates seem like an exception...or at least that's what I thought. Anyways I'd have to say that you're not allowed to spread out the wounds and just remove the ones under the flamer template.

I'm most likely wrong.

Here's the breakdown of how the rules read in the BRB, paraphrased for clarity.

You get hit with a weapon (in this case a flamer that ignores cover)

You get wounded by said weapon (S vs T rolls)

Wounds then get placed onto targeted squad, usually by placing dice next to each model for each wound. Then the dice for each identical model are swooped up together and rolled together. That being said, 6 wounds on 10 Nobz, each with slightly different wargear, would be 6 different wound groups and you would be allowed to simply place one unsaved wound on each nob. It's the cheesy nob-biker move that some competitive ork players have been using since 5th ed. came out with the new wound rules. Now, the next time said mob gets wounded, however, those six particular nobz have to be removed before any wounds are allocated to unwounded, albeit uniquely equipped, nobz.

tetrisphreak wrote:Here's the breakdown of how the rules read in the BRB, paraphrased for clarity.

You get hit with a weapon (in this case a flamer that ignores cover)

You get wounded by said weapon (S vs T rolls)

Wounds then get placed onto targeted squad, usually by placing dice next to each model for each wound. Then the dice for each identical model are swooped up together and rolled together. That being said, 6 wounds on 10 Nobz, each with slightly different wargear, would be 6 different wound groups and you would be allowed to simply place one unsaved wound on each nob. It's the cheesy nob-biker move that some competitive ork players have been using since 5th ed. came out with the new wound rules. Now, the next time said mob gets wounded, however, those six particular nobz have to be removed before any wounds are allocated to unwounded, albeit uniquely equipped, nobz.

=
So if all the Nobz have the same wargear, one would simply have to remove the allocated amount.
4= 2 Nobz 10= 5 Nobz

exactly. it makes giving an attack squig here or a bosspole there worth the extra 5-10 points to increase survivability in an awesome CC unit.

My space marines have a solution to allocation for nobz...we flame them twice, haha.

i was under the impression that no matter a unit is equiped, you have to remove models asap. i.e. if there are five wounds against the unit, two knobs need to be removed and one has one wound.

this thing about them being slightly different... so i can spread out my wounds seems a little silly, its like "the rules don't say that i can't do it, so i can", if they are all different like that, shouldn't they each be there own individual unit(s)???

i dont' have the BRB in front of me but in the multiple wound models section it states that you roll saves for identically equipped models in the same go, then remove single models from those groups asap. so if you had three sets of 2 nobz that were identical in the same group, that's 3 wound groups, and you would have to give 2 wounds to the first group before giving any to the next ones on, then take any applicable saves, then remove whole models where possible.

complicated i know, and rarely comes up unless you're playing in a tournament scene. most ork players i know play just for fun and like to run across the board and smack things instead of looking up cheese rules in a rulebook.

tetrisphreak wrote:i dont' have the BRB in front of me but in the multiple wound models section it states that you roll saves for identically equipped models in the same go, then remove single models from those groups asap. so if you had three sets of 2 nobz that were identical in the same group, that's 3 wound groups, and you would have to give 2 wounds to the first group before giving any to the next ones on, then take any applicable saves, then remove whole models where possible.

complicated i know, and rarely comes up unless you're playing in a tournament scene. most ork players i know play just for fun and like to run across the board and smack things instead of looking up cheese rules in a rulebook.

so in this suggested unit, if i score six hits, and six wounds, and he fails six saves, then he still has to remove six models but one from each "grouping"?
same ork grouping, i score 8 wounds, he has to start with first grouping and remove a model, then 2nd, then 3rd, then back to 1st?

this all seems super to me......

Depends on how many models are in the squad. If you are referring to the 3 groups of 2 models in one unit i suggested in my lower post, then 6 wound will remove 3 of the models (2 wounds each unsaved in each group equals one model per group equals 3 models)

again, in most friendly games, i am usually okay with just saying "Okay, i have 6 wounds here. I failed 6 saves, that's 3 models dead." When i feel that i am in a heated competition (usually only with a certain few of my local players whom i have distaste for) i will invoke the allocation rule when it comes up (It rarely does).

tetrisphreak wrote:Here's the breakdown of how the rules read in the BRB, paraphrased for clarity.

You get hit with a weapon (in this case a flamer that ignores cover)

You get wounded by said weapon (S vs T rolls)

Wounds then get placed onto targeted squad, usually by placing dice next to each model for each wound. Then the dice for each identical model are swooped up together and rolled together. That being said, 6 wounds on 10 Nobz, each with slightly different wargear, would be 6 different wound groups and you would be allowed to simply place one unsaved wound on each nob. It's the cheesy nob-biker move that some competitive ork players have been using since 5th ed. came out with the new wound rules. Now, the next time said mob gets wounded, however, those six particular nobz have to be removed before any wounds are allocated to unwounded, albeit uniquely equipped, nobz.

The bolded part is incorrect.

The order is as follows:
1) Roll to hit
2) Roll to wound
3) Owner allocates wounds
4) Roll to save
5) Remove casualties, removing whole models where possible

Because 5 comes after 3, the owner is free to allocate the wounds to uninjured uniquely-equipped Nobs.

now that that is out of the way.......
if you have a group of models no matter how they are equipped you need to remove whole models. right?
if my termi AC model is under a template, and gets wounded i can't spread it to another model not under a template in the same unit.

so then can you do the same with a group of Tau Battle Suits??? since they are all part of a unit but each suit can be equipped differently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry back to the knobs and templets, if there are six models under the templet, and i score six wounds, then three figures should be removed, not one wound on each knob. because is says, remove WHOLE models, not unless they are equiped different.

it says when referring to templates/blasts in the BRB that the model removed does not necessarily have to be the one that was covered by the template, so blasts/templates are irrelevant for this discussion.

And I am under the impression that wounds must be -allocated- to already-wounded models, not the failed saves. You allocate the wounds then the saves pass/fail on their own based on who you're taking them on. therefore the 6 models with wounds on them would have to be the first to get allocations before anyone else.

hcordes wrote:late in the same unit.

so then can you do the same with a group of Tau Battle Suits??? since they are all part of a unit but each suit can be equipped differently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry back to the knobs and templets, if there are six models under the templet, and i score six wounds, then three figures should be removed, not one wound on each knob. because is says, remove WHOLE models, not unless they are equiped different.

Yes you can. Perhaps you should consult the rulebook again. The defender chooses where to allocate wounds. If you have a group of 6 terminators, and a template blast hits your assault cannon and your cyclone missile launcher....those aren't the two models to take the wounds. You as the defender choose which models in the unit take the wounds by allocating dice to them.

In terms of wound allocation...the key phrase is "unique wound group". If we example a group of 10 nobs:

1. Painboy
2. Bosspole
3. Waaaugh! Banner
4. Powerklaw
5. Powerklaw + Ammo Runt
6. Powerklaw + Kombi-Skorcha
7. Big Choppa
8. Big Choppa + Ammo Runt
9. Big Choppa + Kombi-Skorcha
10. Normal Nob.

If you deal 5 wounds to that unit, I must evenly distribute those 5 wounds amongst my wound groups. Each of those nobs is equipped differently, making each of them their own wound group - meaning that I can fail all five wounds, and since my nobs are two-wound models.....I now have five wounded nobs and no dead nobs.

once they are wounded though, those subgroups MUST be assigned wounds from subsequent shooting units prior to unwounded subgroups. if, to continue your example, your squad of 10 nobs with 5 wounded took another five wounds from the next enemy squad's shooting, you'd have to assign them to the 5 wounded nob subgroups. people tend to forget this so i figured i'd mention it. (pg 26, right column, italicized example, last two sentances)

Warboss, no, that is incorrect.

The requirements on removing injured models first is WITHIN the identical-model groups. Which is AFTER you assign wounds.

So even if you have uninjured and injured nobs, as long as they are different Wound groups, i.e. they are unique, then you may allocate a new wound to the uninjured model.

The example in the book about removing whole models and injured models first is from a unit with identical nobs.

At the beginning of the post it was mentioned in passing that units need to be removed 'under the template.' This is no longer the rule either. If a pair of flamers take down 15 boys in a 30 boy squad, the Ork player can remove all 15 models from the back leaving the Orks right in your face (provided they are all identically equipped).

There are no rules that pertain to "subsequent rounds of shooting" as far as assigning wounds and removing models. To continue Dashofpepper's example, he has 10 nobz, all unique. After a round of shooting, five have 1 wound, five do not after his example. Let's say that unit is shot at again, five more wounds are suffered by the unit. He can then assign those five wounds to the other five, unwounded models; OR he can assign them to the five wounded models; OR any combination therein. Then he takes saves, etc., and if any models suffer their final wound, they are removed. They are 10 unique models and thus 10 unique groups, allowing him, as the owner, to assign as needed. Of course he will try to keep them all alive as long as possible; that's the smart way to play.

Call it cheese if you want, but every unit that can be individually equipped can do this, and every codex has cheesy loopholes the way GW writes codices and rulebooks in isolated bubbles, yet they rarely FAQ anything to clear up/remove these loopholes.

Okaayyy...

Example (bit hard to follow, but you gotta work your brains out now n then)

i have a unit of 10 Nobz
1) Nob with power klaw
2) Nob with power klaw
3) Nob with power klaw
4) Nob with huge choppa
5) Nob with huge choppa
6) Nob with huge choppa
7) Nob with huge choppa
8) Nob with huge choppa
9) Pain boy
10) Nob with waaaagh! banner

So i have several groups of models...
Group A consists of Nobz 1, 2 and 3
Group B consists of Nobz 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8
Group C consists of Nob 9
Group D consists of Nob 10

My unit gets shot at buy enemy squad X and causes several wounds, i allocate my wounds as normal and roll for each group.
The orks are lucky, and squad A, B, C and D take only 1 wound each (wounding Nobs 1, 4, 9 and 10).

My unit then gets shot by enemy squad Y who think they have a better chance, i take 5 wounds, and allocate these to the 5 members of group B, with my FNP i only take 1 wound and a nob is wounded, it will not carry over to another group (i still have 10 Nobz)

Now getting slightly worried squad Z opens up aswell, causing 20 wounds! i allocate two to each nob and roll each group.
Group A takes 6 saves and fails 2, thats one dead ork. (Nob 1 dies as he is already wounded, and nob 2 takes a wound)
Group B takes 10 saves and fails 5, thats three dead orks. (Nob 4 dies as he is already wounded, nobz 5 and 6 die also)
Group C takes 2 saves and passes both!
Group D takes 2 saves and fails one (being wounded already he is removed)

At the end of that shooting phase i have 5 nobz left... 2, 3, 7, 8 and 9. Although nobz 2 and 9 are still wounded.

This is how it works... I think. You cannot spread the wounds around within groups, but you may spread the wounds across multiple groups.

after consulting the new rule book, i find that this is correct, (the 10 unique wound groups). as as it is, it does follow the rules, I would hate to have that thrown in my face like that, but in a close game/competition enviroment, i would more than likey abuse such a ruling (just being honest).
My first thought was this was a load os s t, but it is in fact not. but i shake my finger at you mr. rules lawyer man. for no other reason than because i can.

there is no mention of subsequent shooting phases, you just rinse and repeat, so can assign wounds where ever you want, the next time that unit gets shot at.