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What happens if someone assaults a spore mine?

According to page 34, "Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model..." and later "If the enemy is within range, then the assault continues." So, if the enemy model self destructs, does that make the assault fail? Is the self destruction considered to occur after the assault moves take place, or is it immediate upon contact?

I ask because I can imagine that a gratuitous assault against a spore mine could be an easy way for a unit to get extra movement, especially for daemon players.

How i'd play it is...

Move the closest model in the assaulting unit into contact with the spore mine.
The rest of the unit moves up into contact if possible (or into other spore mines if they wish to multi assault) so ideally you the enemy will be grouped around one (or more) spore mine(s).

After assault moves are made, explode in their face, hitting a large amount of tightly packed guys.

The extra move has a major disadvantage.

Spore Mines explode when They moved into contact with an enemy, or when they take a wound. If you Assault a Spore Mine, then you fight as normal, and if it dies, it explodes. If it lives, buy new dice.

But the thing is, if you actually get to conduct a round of combat against the spore mine, you get the assault distance and a free consolidation move in exchange for risking a wound or two.

Yeah, it depends on what you are. "A wound or two" could turn into five or more quite easily, since you are required to clump yourself in as close to the thing as you can.

Just think of that poor squad of 50 blobbed guardsmen...

Plus... why is the nid player worried about the enemy getting closer

They're trying to win the game by making the opposing player giggle themselves to death?

Aduro wrote:Spore Mines explode when They moved into contact with an enemy, or when they take a wound. If you Assault a Spore Mine, then you fight as normal, and if it dies, it explodes. If it lives, buy new dice.

Correction: Spore mines explode when they touch an enemy model, not when they move into contact with an enemy model, as soon as you assaulted the mine it would explode. No assault would ever take place. I have no idea what effect this would have on your consolidation move...

Given that the spore "immediately explodes" I think it should probably happen as soon as the first model touches it, although that could cause problems with regards to coherency. I'm really not 100% sure with regards to this.

Wonder if there's a point of distinction with touching an enemy model vs an enemy model touching you.

i'd play it as i stated above, move the whole squad (theres supposed to assault as a unit, not just one guy running up on his own) so move the closest in and then move the rest of the squad, them the mine explodes.

Afterwards i'd give the normal consolidation as that is generally what happens when a unit is wiped out in the assault phase (regardless if the 'wiping out' is self inflicted or not) and this is also the case when a unit leaves combat via hit+run or skyleap.

Aduro wrote:Wonder if there's a point of distinction with touching an enemy model vs an enemy model touching you.

No, there certainly is not, models are either touching one another or not touching one another, since neither is performing the act of touching (e.g. I touched that dog), it is merely a state of being in contact.

Here's where it get's really bizarre. Imagine a herald of Slaanesh on mount with pavane. There's a squad of Tyranids a bit more than 12" away from the herald, and directly in the middle is a spore mine. Let's say that the herald shoots the mine with pavane, it hits, and the mine gets moved 6" so that it's near the other squad. The herald then assaults the spore mine.

A) If the spore mine explodes upon contact, and then the assault fails, then the herald ends up maybe taking a wound, the survivors probably take a lot more, and herald stays 12" away from the surivors because the assault failed.

B) If you count the assault as automatically succeeding, then the herald gets the normal D6" consolidation to get away from the other squad's survivors.

Or, if the herald's in a calvary unit, let's say that one of the regular calvary models is closest instead of the herald. If the closest calvary model charges and then dies in the explosion, what happens? The assault move succeeded, but there's no longer a moved model to be in coherency with. Do the other models still get an assault move, and if so does it get to be anywhere? Do they get to the free D6" move because their opponent died?

There are all sorts of silly scenarios where the daemon player can get advantage from playing Slaaneshi tether ball, depending on whether or not the explosion spoils the assault. It comes down to which of the silly scenarios are supposed to work...

I honestly would count it as a completed assault, in which you(the charging unit) are the victor.

Well.
You should move the whole squad into contact, the the defender reacts (by exploding) is one way i think works fine. Then as i said above, normal consolidation due to previous reasons.

The act of charging and reaching mean you contact the spore, you will make a charge move then it explodes you won't be left hanging back where you started.

If you think about its all rather simple.

Ya'll should be reading my FAQ before asking silly questions

TYR.48.11 – Q: What happens if a Spore Mine is assaulted by an enemy unit?
A: Should a Spore Mine be declared the target of an assault by an enemy unit and, after each model in the unit completes it's assault move, finds itself in base contact with an enemy model, it will then detonate before any models attempt their close combat attacks. If, at this point, the assaulting unit no longer has models locked in combat, they may make a consolidation move but (obviously) cannot declare another assault that turn. [Clarification]
• The rules as written do not adequately define what “touches an enemy unit” means, nor does it cover the eventuality of a multiple assault involving a Spore Mine. The above ruling is thus inferred.

Having thought about now, I have decided what I think the RAW is, it says that it detonates as soon as it touches an enemy model, so as soon as the first enemy model makes contact with the spore, it will detonate, after the spore's detonation is resolved, the assault still has to proceed, as it was a successful assault moments before, following the normal constraints on assault movement, although, this will only mean they must maintain coherency, they could potentially use the 6" to assault another seperate unit as per the multiple assault rules however.

That is what I believe the RAW to be.

edit: Quoting Gwar wasn't really relevant.

Drunkspleen wrote:Having thought about now, I have decided what I think the RAW is, it says that it detonates as soon as it touches an enemy model, so as soon as the first enemy model makes contact with the spore, it will detonate, after the spore's detonation is resolved, the assault still has to proceed, as it was a successful assault moments before, following the normal constraints on assault movement, although, this will only mean they must maintain coherency, they could potentially use the 6" to assault another seperate unit as per the multiple assault rules however.

That is what I believe the RAW to be.

edit: Quoting Gwar wasn't really relevant.

I don't have the book in front of me, but if I recall living bomb correctly that seems like it is what would happen.
You make your first model's move into base contact, that mine immediately explodes for being in contact with an enemy, then you make your next move and so on.
Living bomb waiting to kick in until "after each model in the unit completes it's assault move" as Gwars faq says appears strange to me.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Having thought about now, I have decided what I think the RAW is, it says that it detonates as soon as it touches an enemy model, so as soon as the first enemy model makes contact with the spore, it will detonate, after the spore's detonation is resolved, the assault still has to proceed, as it was a successful assault moments before, following the normal constraints on assault movement, although, this will only mean they must maintain coherency, they could potentially use the 6" to assault another seperate unit as per the multiple assault rules however.

That is what I believe the RAW to be.

edit: Quoting Gwar wasn't really relevant.

I don't have the book in front of me, but if I recall living bomb correctly that seems like it is what would happen.
You make your first model's move into base contact, that mine immediately explodes for being in contact with an enemy, then you make your next move and so on.
Living bomb waiting to kick in until "after each model in the unit completes it's assault move" as Gwars faq says appears strange to me.

Think of it more in a slight reality situation:

Those guys aren't moving up there one at a time, it is a mad rush to attack the thing that is going to explode in your face. You only have the ability to move a single model at a time due to the rules constraint of each model can only move 6".

It makes sense to me from a reality standpoint that everyone would move up THEN it would explode. Otherwise, I could move a guy up there, it explodes and I could kill a different member of the squad NOT under the template due to casualty rules. That is even more ridiculous.

Who or why would someone silly enough assault a spore mine, unless they have many troops in their squad?

6" + consolidation movement for some wounds? Units in power armor will shrug a single spore mine off.

Mattlov wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Having thought about now, I have decided what I think the RAW is, it says that it detonates as soon as it touches an enemy model, so as soon as the first enemy model makes contact with the spore, it will detonate, after the spore's detonation is resolved, the assault still has to proceed, as it was a successful assault moments before, following the normal constraints on assault movement, although, this will only mean they must maintain coherency, they could potentially use the 6" to assault another seperate unit as per the multiple assault rules however.

That is what I believe the RAW to be.

edit: Quoting Gwar wasn't really relevant.

I don't have the book in front of me, but if I recall living bomb correctly that seems like it is what would happen.
You make your first model's move into base contact, that mine immediately explodes for being in contact with an enemy, then you make your next move and so on.
Living bomb waiting to kick in until "after each model in the unit completes it's assault move" as Gwars faq says appears strange to me.

Think of it more in a slight reality situation:

Those guys aren't moving up there one at a time, it is a mad rush to attack the thing that is going to explode in your face. You only have the ability to move a single model at a time due to the rules constraint of each model can only move 6".

It makes sense to me from a reality standpoint that everyone would move up THEN it would explode. Otherwise, I could move a guy up there, it explodes and I could kill a different member of the squad NOT under the template due to casualty rules. That is even more ridiculous.

Yes, sure, but that's not what the written rules actually say is it?
The rules say that you move a single model into base contact -> Spore mines explode on contact.
Right?

That's like rolling to hit/wound separately for each shot when a squad is shooting then saying if you pull your kills out of range the rest of the shots don't go off. You can't interrupt something like that I wouldn't think.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:That's like rolling to hit/wound separately for each shot when a squad is shooting then saying if you pull your kills out of range the rest of the shots don't go off. You can't interrupt something like that I wouldn't think.

Shooting quite specifically occurs simultaneously.
Assaulting has a distinct set of steps, which involves moving models individually into positions that set off spore mines before others are moved.

The entire unit moves at the same time, that is to say you move the entire unit then move to the next thing you are doing. So, you move your entire unit their assault range, that entire unit is then considered in base to base, or not depending on how far you can move the unit, then the spore mine goes off. Doing it any other way would be like rolling attacks one model at a time and then figuring out if the next model can swing, even though every model would swing at the same time.

Actually, no it doesn't. You move each model to its closest opponent, then you complete pile ins of the assaulting unit, then the defender reacts.

iamthecougar wrote:The entire unit moves at the same time, that is to say you move the entire unit then move to the next thing you are doing. So, you move your entire unit their assault range, that entire unit is then considered in base to base, or not depending on how far you can move the unit, then the spore mine goes off. Doing it any other way would be like rolling attacks one model at a time and then figuring out if the next model can swing, even though every model would swing at the same time.

Feel free to continue to make unbased RAI claims that it would be like unrelated straw man X, meaningful rules arguments would be better though.

Making assault moves, p34:
"Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit... Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route.... After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire."

You move the models individually in sequence. That's how assault moves work.
Spore mines explode 'immediately' when they contact an enemy model. That is how living bomb works.
That's the RAW, as far as I can tell, and I'm curious what the reasoning behind Gwar's 'clarification' is.

I do agree that the unit, which declared an assault against the spore mine, must move all assaulting models into B2B with spore mine. After which the mine explodes. Simply because you must follow the rules for assault before you can take into account anything else.

1. Declare assault
2. Move assaulting unit
3. Spore mine explodes.

I'm generalizing a bit here, but I think you get the point. I don't believe that the spore mine interrupts the flow of the Assault mechanic.

What I'm not sure about is if the assaulting unit gets to make a consolidation move. I don't think they actually scored any wounds on the mine as it simply blew up. So did the assaulting unit actually win combat? If not, then it's pretty much a given that you don't want to assault spore mines. Just hang back and shoot them.

EDIT: The first part of my post was irrelevant to the discussion at hand so I deleted it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'm going to amend my original position and say that a Spore Mine immediately explodes upon contact with an enemy model (i.e., as soon as a single enemy models touches it.).

From Living Bomb: "...If a spore mine suffers a wound, touches an enemy model, touches impassible terrain, or ends any Movement phase within 2'' of an enemy model, it immediately explodes...."

While I originally thought that you would have to work out the Assault move prior to resolving an exploded mine, now I think that's not the case. The Living Bomb rule is pretty clear that as soon as a mine touches an enemy model it blows up. So declare a charge, move that first model, blow the mine, then finish the assault. Only problem is...what do the subsequent models engage/surround?

I would just have the entire assaulting squad move to engage the mine and resolve the explosion against only one model. The first one that came into contact with the mine.

I still don't think that the assaulting unit gets a consolidation move as they did not win the combat by inflicting more wounds. Nor do I think the assaulting would lose the combat if they actually suffer a wound. The mine never assaulted the unit.

-Yad

Sorry if this is thread necromancy. I am not shure what the expire date for thread necromancy is.

I wanted to make a new topic about assaulting spore mines and spore mines assaulting but I keep reading mods say use the Search-fu, so I have Search-fued . If I need to make a new post I will but seeing the last date is only 2 or so weeks old I thought I would post here.

What is the final consenssus? When a unit assaults a Spore Mine, do all the units that is assulting move into b2b contact with the mine, then the mine explodes or does only one mini move, touch b2b mine explodes then the rest of the minis join in.

I can't see happening since basically all units have to move at the same time to assault. The only reason you move on mini at first is to see if it makes the assault move legal, once it's found out legal, then all the other minis have to move in b2b or as close as possible. Then the mine explodes, and hits everyone that is under the template.

If people say this is not the case, then the first mini moves, mine explodes, then CC has to stop because it has been resolved and that would make the unit out of unit coherency since there is no mine left for the other minis to go into b2b contac or get as close to it as possible.

So how is this exactly done?

Also are people saying that Spore Mines can assault an enemy unit now? I know Gwar is saying no, but he is not going by RAW, but his version of RAI because we don't really know what the intention is for 5th edtion Spore mines. ( this is the only thing I disagree with Gwar, he seems to be the King of FAQ and debating rules for fun.)

Davor wrote:Sorry if this is thread necromancy. I am not shure what the expire date for thread necromancy is.

I wanted to make a new topic about assaulting spore mines and spore mines assaulting but I keep reading mods say use the Search-fu, so I have Search-fued . If I need to make a new post I will but seeing the last date is only 2 or so weeks old I thought I would post here.

No problem, it's a good question that I think the rules don't adequately address.

Davor wrote:What is the final consenssus? When a unit assaults a Spore Mine, do all the units that is assulting move into b2b contact with the mine, then the mine explodes or does only one mini move, touch b2b mine explodes then the rest of the minis join in.

I can't see happening since basically all units have to move at the same time to assault. The only reason you move on mini at first is to see if it makes the assault move legal, once it's found out legal, then all the other minis have to move in b2b or as close as possible. Then the mine explodes, and hits everyone that is under the template.

You kinda contradicted yourself here. Saying all units (I think you meant models) move at the same time is a good abstraction of how an Assault works, but not how the mechanic works. You correctly noted that you move one model first, then the rest of the squad. The Spore Mine rule says that upon contact it immediately explodes. Simply put, you can't do both and satisfy the Living Bomb rule and the Assault mechanic.

Davor wrote:If people say this is not the case, then the first mini moves, mine explodes, then CC has to stop because it has been resolved and that would make the unit out of unit coherency since there is no mine left for the other minis to go into b2b contac or get as close to it as possible.

So how is this exactly done?

The 'easiest' way to resolve this and satisfy both rules would be to:
1. Declare Assault against Spore Mine
2. Move the first model into contact.
3. The Mine explodes. Place the marker and determine the number of hits.
4. Move the remainder of the Assaulting model/unit into contact with the mine
5. Remove the mine.

The assaulting model/unit would not get a consolidation move, as per the Assault rules, the assaulting unit did not technically inflict a wound and 'win' combat.

Davor wrote:Also are people saying that Spore Mines can assault an enemy unit now? I know Gwar is saying no, but he is not going by RAW, but his version of RAI because we don't really know what the intention is for 5th edtion Spore mines. ( this is the only thing I disagree with Gwar, he seems to be the King of FAQ and debating rules for fun.)

There is nothing in the Spore Mine entry that states a mine may not assault an enemy unit. Their Movement consists of drifting d6'', with no restrictions on Assault. Could be something that GW overlooked. For now though they do indeed assault.

-Yad

Yad wrote:3. The Mine explodes. Place the marker and determine the number of hits.
4. Move the remainder of the Assaulting model/unit into contact with the mine
5. Remove the mine.

RAW, Spore Mines don't remove themselves. Ridiculous, but true. They would (theoretically) explode each time a model in the assaulting unit touched them.

Don't try and do this in a game (unless your opponent insists on RAW).

Anyway.

Spore mines can assault, as nothing prevents them from doing so, but will immediately explode.