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Gorkamorka wrote:
Making assault moves, p34:
"Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit... Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route.... After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire."

You move the models individually in sequence. That's how assault moves work.
Spore mines explode 'immediately' when they contact an enemy model. That is how living bomb works.

I stand by my reading from weeks ago, and I'm curious what if any problems there are with it specifically? (complications in carrying it out, though I don't think there are any, aside)

If you assume that when the Spore Mine explodes it's removed from play, then after the first model contacts the Mine and blows it up, what do the remaining members of the assaulting unit assault?

I understand that some folks are saying that because the Living Bomb rule says you don't remove the mine after it explodes, spore mines remain in play indefinitely. Honestly though, does anyone want to have a game against someone that plays the Living Bomb rule that way?

-Yad

Yad wrote:If you assume that when the Spore Mine explodes it's removed from play, then after the first model contacts the Mine and blows it up, what do the remaining members of the assaulting unit assault?

They don't have to assault anything, as far as I can tell.

"If the closest model is found
not to be within move distance to the enemy, that
assault does not happen and no model is moved.

If the enemy is within range, then the assault move
continues. After moving the first model in the unit, you
can move the others in any sequence you desire. There
are some constraints on their movement though:"

The enemy was within range of the first move, so the assault move did not fail and continues.

So we go down the bullet points:
-The most important one is that each model must end
its assault move in coherency with another model in
its own unit that has already moved.
...
-If a model cannot reach any enemy models, it must
try to move within 2" of one of its own unit’s models
that is already in base contact with an enemy.
-If this is impossible, it must simply stay in coherency.

The next section on 'Who can Fight' specifies models in base contact or within 2" of base contact, so noone can fight and the bulk of the assault rules fizzle there. Combat resolution/Consolidation is a tad hairier, but I'm not arguing that at the moment.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Yad wrote:If you assume that when the Spore Mine explodes it's removed from play, then after the first model contacts the Mine and blows it up, what do the remaining members of the assaulting unit assault?

So we go down the bullet points:
-The most important one is that each model must end
its assault move in coherency with another model in
its own unit that has already moved.

Yep

Gorkamorka wrote:
-If a model cannot reach any enemy models, it must
try to move within 2" of one of its own unit’s models
that is already in base contact with an enemy.

-If this is impossible, it must simply stay in coherency.

Emphasis mine.

So how does 'the most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency...' reconcile with 'try to move within 2'' of one of its own unit's models that is already in base contact with an enemy', if you remove the spore mine when it immediately explodes. It's altogether possible that you can't maintain coherency after moving the first model. As you will not be able to move subsequent models in the assaulting unit, because after removing the mine, there are no friendly models in B2B with an enemy.

If you don't remove the Spore Mine immediately then are you either:

A.) Breaking the Living Bomb rule.

or

B.) Saying that, per RAW, Spore Mines explode but are never removed from play after contacting a enemy model.

If it's the former, then you may have a break in the Assault mechanic. If it's the later then you'd have to accept that the mine explodes each time an enemy model in the Assaulting unit comes into B2B with it (crazy).

I think your scenario would only work if you first moved your assaulting unit to be just within 2'' of the Spore Mine. You'd still be able to move the first model, blow the mine, and have the rest of the squad remain in coherency with the first model. However, if you say 4'' out, then I think you've got a problem. The Assault rules let you begin an assault, but the Living Bomb rules and assault mechanic screw things up afterward.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:
-If a model cannot reach any enemy models, it must
try to move within 2" of one of its own unit’s models
that is already in base contact with an enemy.

-If this is impossible, it must simply stay in coherency.

Emphasis mine.

So how does 'the most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency...' reconcile with 'try to move within 2'' of one of its own unit's models that is already in base contact with an enemy', if you remove the spore mine when it immediately explodes. It's altogether possible that you can't maintain coherency after moving the first model. As you will not be able to move subsequent models in the assaulting unit, because after removing the mine, there are no friendly models in B2B with an enemy.
-Yad

...did you read the next bullet point after that one, right there in your quote, or just tune it out entirely?
All the models have to do is move to stay in coherency, there is no enemy 'requirement' that breaks here. That was the whole point.

I don't' have the codex with me, so apologies if I am forgetting.

But don't the mines operate independently after they land. So there is not a time when a 'unit' of mines would be assaulting.


OTOH, what if you have two single mines assaulting the same unit.
Is it move-boom, move-boom. Or is it move-move-boom-boom.
I believe the former.

Edit - Never mind... Serious case of too-early-in-the-morning-itis...

Gorkamorka wrote:

Yad wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:
-If a model cannot reach any enemy models, it must
try to move within 2" of one of its own unit’s models
that is already in base contact with an enemy.

-If this is impossible, it must simply stay in coherency.

Emphasis mine.

So how does 'the most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency...' reconcile with 'try to move within 2'' of one of its own unit's models that is already in base contact with an enemy', if you remove the spore mine when it immediately explodes. It's altogether possible that you can't maintain coherency after moving the first model. As you will not be able to move subsequent models in the assaulting unit, because after removing the mine, there are no friendly models in B2B with an enemy.
-Yad

...did you read the next bullet point after that one, right there in your quote, or just tune it out entirely?
All the models have to do is move to stay in coherency, there is no enemy 'requirement' that breaks here. That was the whole point.

No I missed that Don't have my rulebook with me at work. That makes sense.

Move the first model, blow the mine. Move the rest of the squad so that coherency is maintained. One could certainly take advantage of this in how you move into coherency though. Oh, and no consolidation moves either.

-Yad

coredump wrote:But don't the mines operate independently after they land. So there is not a time when a 'unit' of mines would be assaulting.

You're correct... but the discussion was on a unit assaulting a spore mine, not a unit of spore mines assaulting someone else...

insaniak wrote:

coredump wrote:But don't the mines operate independently after they land. So there is not a time when a 'unit' of mines would be assaulting.

You're correct... but the discussion was on a unit assaulting a spore mine, not a unit of spore mines assaulting someone else...

I was quite confused by the post , but I think you did have a point in there unintentionally. If the mine explodes and you remove the model that moved into contact with it, I suppose you would be screwed with no way to get coherency with a moved model and hence be unable to satisfy the first bullet.

forkbanger wrote:
RAW, Spore Mines don't remove themselves. Ridiculous, but true. They would (theoretically) explode each time a model in the assaulting unit touched them.

True, RAW, the spore mines don't remove themselves. However, the spore mine is underneath the blast marker and would take a hit. Admittedly, that does leave open the silly possibility of a spore mine getting a cover save against its own explosion, and the argument that most spore mines will explode twice (once upon contact, and then again upon self-inflicted wound).

Agreed, there's no reason why you wouldn't work out the results of a blown up mine right then and there. If the first model dies (i.e., removed from play) then subsequent assaulting models from the same unit cannot move into coherency with it.

-Yad

Yad wrote:Agreed, there's no reason why you wouldn't work out the results of a blown up mine right then and there. If the first model dies (i.e., removed from play) then subsequent assaulting models from the same unit cannot move into coherency with it.

-Yad

Well you can allocate the wound to another model, but if you happen to feel like breaking the game the option appears available.

I'd say the RAI is that you'd move all the models into base to base contact then the spore mine explodes. RAW? Well that is awesome for the Tyranid player:

1) First guy moves into base to base with the spore mine it explodes.

2) 2nd guy attempts to move into BTB with spore mine, it explodes again.

and so on until it is completely surrounded by models or the entire assaulting unit is dead. It then explodes again in it's movement phase assuming it survived assault if not then it explodes one last time before being removed .

Remember nothing in the living bomb rule states that the spore mine is removed when it explodes...

FlingitNow wrote:2) 2nd guy attempts to move into BTB with spore mine, it explodes again.

Assuming it survives the first explosion, which at T1 with no save is unlikely.

1/6 is good odds for some

And don't forget your cover saves if you are in area terrain

insaniak wrote:

coredump wrote:But don't the mines operate independently after they land. So there is not a time when a 'unit' of mines would be assaulting.

You're correct... but the discussion was on a unit assaulting a spore mine, not a unit of spore mines assaulting someone else...

Haha...

[Gilda Radner]
Nevermind
[/Gilda]

Assuming it survives the first explosion, which at T1 with no save is unlikely.

Good point but it then atleast explodes twice on that guy and then all sporemines explode at least twice when they hit a unit (assuming that they die first hit, potentially 3 times in the turn if they don't - upon contact, at end of movement phase, if they die the 2nd time).

That makes them pretty lethal! Or maybe we just play RAI that units assault as one and then it explodes and it is removed when it explodes? Heck RAI might even be that you are plain not allowed to assault a spore. We'll see with the FAQ (man that is going to be big), or not as the case most probably will be...