"Jesus Rifles" in the Army/Marines

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**Ahtman**

Excerpt:

By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer Richard Lardner, Associated Press Writer – Tue Jan 19, 6:21 pm ET

WASHINGTON – Army officials said Tuesday they will investigate whether a Michigan defense contractor violated federal procurement rules by stamping references to Bible verses on combat rifle sights used by American forces to kill enemy fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Marine Corps, another major customer of the telescoping sights that allow troops to pinpoint targets day or night, says service acquisition officials plan to meet with the contractor, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., to discuss future purchases of the company's gear.

The references have stoked concerns by a watch dog group about whether the inscriptions break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought.

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company has never received any complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

The inscriptions are subtle and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number. Trijicon's rifle sights use tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, to create light and help shooters hit what they're aiming for.

Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Photos posted on a Defense Department Web site show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.

The Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's. In 2009 alone, the Marine Corps signed deals worth $66 million for the company's products. Trijicon's scopes and optical devices for guns range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, according to the company's Web site.

Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, says the Trijicon sights could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool: that American troops are Christian crusaders invading Muslim countries.

"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Quran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations," Weinstein said. The foundation is a nonprofit organization opposed to religious favoritism within the military.

Weinstein said he has received complaints about the Scripture citations from active-duty and retired members of the military. He said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.

A spokesman for U.S. Central Command, which manages military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the sights don't violate the ban on proselytizing because there's no effort to distribute the equipment beyond the U.S. troops who use them.

"This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency," said the spokesman, Air Force Maj. John Redfield. "Are we going to stop using money because the bills have 'In God We Trust' on them? As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they'll continue to be used."

Capt. Geraldine Carey, a Marine Corps spokeswoman, said Tuesday in an e-mailed statement that "we are aware of the issue and are concerned with how this may be perceived." Carey said Marine Corps acquisition officials plan to meet with Trijicon to discuss future buys of the company's sights. The statement did not say what the nature of those discussions would be.

Gary Tallman, an Army spokesman, said the service was not aware of the markings. But Army acquisition experts will determine if Trijicon violated any procurement regulations, he said.

Munson, Trijicon's sales director, said the practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, has continued the practice.

There is also a video on the original article

I'm not really sure what to make of this. On one hand it is problematic because of the concerns in the Middle East that this is a holy war between Christians and Muslims, but at the same time I think it really is a bit of much ado about nothing.

**BishopGore**

I'm not one to be pro-Christian about anything, but this definitely seems to be much ado about nothing. If the Iraquis don't want to use American rifles then they should buy their own. Besides, from the news I have been hearing that most of the recruits are illiterate, what is the chance that any of them can read English, especially in tiny writing on a gun sight? It could say "Insert in rear end" for all they know!

If the American soldiers don't mind it and the generals don't think it's a distraction, then I don't see what harm it does. You know, compared to the harm a bullet does...

**malfred**

Would have been cooler with Big Lebowski quotes.

**Kilkrazy**

It is only an issue because Al Qaeda could use it as evidence in support of their propaganda campaign that the US Army are modern day Crusaders trying to crush Islamic society.

**The happy reaper**

Kilkrazy wrote:It is only an issue because Al Qaeda could use it as evidence in support of their propaganda campaign that the US Army are modern day Crusaders trying to crush Islamic society.

Well, it seems like something that someone crusading against islam would do. The modern day equivalent of a cross on ones tabard perhaps?

Not trying to say thats what the US is doing, just that if you want to win hearts and minds, things like this are exactly the opposite of what you want to be doing.

**JEB_Stuart**

Kilkrazy wrote:It is only an issue because Al Qaeda could use it as evidence in support of their propaganda campaign that the US Army are modern day Crusaders trying to crush Islamic society.

If this is all they have to go on, then they have a very weak case. Besides, I think they are much more clever then relying solely on a few markings, not even entire Scripture mind you, to create a propaganda campaign that features the US and other Western nations as Crusaders. This is clearly an overreaction.

The happy reaper wrote:Well, it seems like something that someone crusading against islam would do. The modern day equivalent of a cross on ones tabard perhaps?

Hogwash. They have been doing this for 30 years, according to the article. I very much doubt they were all that concerned with crusading against Islam and its followers when Trijicon was started in the 1970s in Michigan. To compare this to the use of the Cross as a symbol for a Crusader is utterly ridiculous.

The happy reaper wrote:Not trying to say thats what the US is doing, just that if you want to win hearts and minds, things like this are exactly the opposite of what you want to be doing.

And how many of the people, whose hearts and minds we are trying to win, are going to see these rifle sights, and whats more even be able to read them in English? Further, how many will know what they even refer too? I have many Muslim friends who have no idea what the difference is between even the Old and New Testament, let alone their books, chapters and verses.

**Ahtman**

JEB_Stuart wrote:
The happy reaper wrote:Not trying to say thats what the US is doing, just that if you want to win hearts and minds, things like this are exactly the opposite of what you want to be doing.
And how many of the people, whose hearts and minds we are trying to win, are going to see these rifle sights, and whats more even be able to read them in English? Further, how many will know what they even refer too? I have many Muslim friends who have no idea what the difference is between even the Old and New Testament, let alone their books, chapters and verses.

The people that would be using this as propaganda would be doing so to people who couldn't read it. You don't hand everyone a gun and tell them to read it. You post a youtube video or point to an article on Al-Jazeera. Your average suicide bomber in the region isn't going to be to worldly or savvy.

I would be more concerned though with the stuff (you had to watch the video for the article) with bibles given to soldiers to pass out to Afghani's and the Air Force Col. encouraging prostelyzation in the combat zone. The numbers thing is minor, going around and handing out bibles wearing a soldiers uniform in a hostile environment? Not so minor.

**Kilkrazy**

JEB_Stuart wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:It is only an issue because Al Qaeda could use it as evidence in support of their propaganda campaign that the US Army are modern day Crusaders trying to crush Islamic society.
If this is all they have to go on, then they have a very weak case. Besides, I think they are much more clever then relying solely on a few markings, not even entire Scripture mind you, to create a propaganda campaign that features the US and other Western nations as Crusaders. This is clearly an overreaction.

I agree in itself it is a weak case, but Al Qaeda have already been pushing the "Crusader" angle for some years. Removing the markings from the scopes would remove that little bit of evidence from their case and would have no detrimental effect on the Army.

Personally if I had seen these markings I would have assumed they were model numbers or something like that.

**JEB_Stuart**

Ahtman wrote:I would be more concerned though with the stuff (you had to watch the video for the article) with bibles given to soldiers to pass out to Afghani's and the Air Force Col. encouraging prostelyzation in the combat zone. The numbers thing is minor, going around and handing out bibles wearing a soldiers uniform in a hostile environment? Not so minor.

I think we can all agree with that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:Personally if I had seen these markings I would have assumed they were model numbers or something like that.

Exactly

**Frazzled**

Its a serial number on a scope! BFD!

This is crazy talk Catch 22 heller nonsense. The serial number on the scope is evil bad but blowing away the target IN THE SCOPE is fine?

Er, nuts but something for the PC police who have already helped kill us with the Ft. Hood Terrorist to foam at the mouth about.

**Ahtman**

Frazzled wrote:Its a serial number on a scope! BFD!

This is crazy talk Catch 22 heller nonsense. The serial number on the scope is evil bad but blowing away the target IN THE SCOPE is fine?

Er, nuts but something for the PC police who have already helped kill us with the Ft. Hood Terrorist to foam at the mouth about.

Killing people with the weapons has never been the issue. It is a PR problem, which, sadly, is a real problem. It seems insignificant, but when trying to get people to stop walking up to Pizza Hut and blowing up it does make a difference.

**Tyyr**

Kilkrazy wrote:It is only an issue because Al Qaeda could use it as evidence in support of their propaganda campaign that the US Army are modern day Crusaders trying to crush Islamic society.

Yeah, because that's total not what they've been doing all along and this is the kind of proof that the level headed members of Al Qaeda would wait for before initiating a holy war with American troops.

The happy reaper wrote:Well, it seems like something that someone crusading against islam would do. The modern day equivalent of a cross on ones tabard perhaps?

Yeah, it totally is.

Because the big red cross in the middle of this guy's chest:

Is exactly the same as the serial number on this guy's sight:

Which if someone would be so kind as to find a 10 or 20 mega pixel version of this I might actually be able to find.

**malfred**

Frazzled wrote:Its a serial number on a scope! BFD!

This is crazy talk Catch 22 heller nonsense. The serial number on the scope is evil bad but blowing away the target IN THE SCOPE is fine?

Er, nuts but something for the PC police who have already helped kill us with the Ft. Hood Terrorist to foam at the mouth about.

Well, presumably, you must repeat the Litany before the Ammo receives the Blessing.

Then you perform the ritual of Loading the Clip and Sighting the Target.

Finally, you raise word to the Emperor that you are delivering another soul unto his throne.

This hobby is horrible.

**SagesStone**

I agree, so it's a serial number that co-incidentally can be referenced to the Bible; Big deal.
It doesn't appear that it was a problem until the media jumped onto the horse. I don't doubt that it will be beaten senseless. I guess anything to fan the flames of war so that they don't have to do too much researching into new stories.

Besides if you looked at it and saw "JN8:12" or "2COR4:6" you wouldn't imediately link it to the Bible unless you were looking to create a big fuss. Unsurprisingly the ever "insightful" media managed to save us all from the impending nuclear apocalypse by pointing out how close we were to a holy war

**Ahtman**

n0t_u wrote:I agree, so it's a serial number that co-incidentally can be referenced to the Bible; Big deal.

It isn't a coincidence, it is purposeful.

**generalgrog**

It must be a slow news day.

GG

**reds8n**

These rifles sound better.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/army-snipers-get-thank%11you-letter-from-jesus-201001202395/

**Altered_Soul**

To be frank: Is this a stupid thing to add to the serial stamp? Yes indeed. Is it insensitive, especially in the context, yes indeed again.

Is it a massive problem that brings justification to Islamic extremists everywhere? No way. Stupid, yes, horrifying, no.

Its akin to finding the bible references on wrappers at In-N-Out. Except the political/social context is a bit more sensitive.

**Cane**

From a business perspective, why the hell would you want to give a reason for the feds to potentially void or complicate your contract? Michigan doesn't need to lose anymore business as is.

Biblical stuff on military issued equipment just isn't smart and reeks of a lack of basic cultural understanding or simply a slap in the face to non-Christians - both American and foreign. Why potentially endanger more US and allied lives by creating needless controversy? And then you cue the infamous George Bush Jr's "crusade" statement and it just doesn't look good. A bunch of minor stuff adds up in major conflicts like our 'war on terror' especially if it looks like "we" don't give a damn about past mistakes.

And maybe most importantly of all; if you're going to reference a bad ass line from the bible you have to go for Ezekiel 25:17

**sebster**

n0t_u wrote:I agree, so it's a serial number that co-incidentally can be referenced to the Bible; Big deal.
It doesn't appear that it was a problem until the media jumped onto the horse. I don't doubt that it will be beaten senseless. I guess anything to fan the flames of war so that they don't have to do too much researching into new stories.

Besides if you looked at it and saw "JN8:12" or "2COR4:6" you wouldn't imediately link it to the Bible unless you were looking to create a big fuss. Unsurprisingly the ever "insightful" media managed to save us all from the impending nuclear apocalypse by pointing out how close we were to a holy war

Before you criticise the media for misrepresenting a story, make sure you're not doing the same. The bible reference is next to the serial number, and is quite deliberate.

It is also, however, pretty obscure and something that no-one seemed to notice for 30 years, so its hardly a dramatic, pressing issue, certainly no reason to recall the ACOG sights. But, the US army, as part of the US government, is not to support any religion - it doesn't matter if its an obscure reference or an obvious one... who draws the line when the reference becomes a problem? It seems to me that unless you want to start trying to define how much religion you'll accept on your military hardware, the only solution is to begin a process of filing the reference of each scope.

Ideally there'd be a legal clause somewhere that caused the manufacturer to pay for filing.

**malfred**

The obvious answer is to inscribe an image of the flying spaghetti monster onto the
gun barrels of tanks.

**sebster**

Frazzled wrote:Its a serial number on a scope! BFD!

This is crazy talk Catch 22 heller nonsense. The serial number on the scope is evil bad but blowing away the target IN THE SCOPE is fine?

Umm, to the extent that the US army is there to kill people having guns with scopes seems pretty logical. Given that it isn't a Christian army, that would be a problem.

What's odd is people putting Christian codes onto the killing weapons they're manufacturing. Being so proudly Christian that you stamp bible code onto the killing weapons you manufacture seems an odd combination to me.

**Captain Roderick**

reds8n wrote: These rifles sound better.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/army-snipers-get-thank%11you-letter-from-jesus-201001202395/

Dang you reds8n! I was just about to post a link to that as well...

**Frazzled**

sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its a serial number on a scope! BFD!

This is crazy talk Catch 22 heller nonsense. The serial number on the scope is evil bad but blowing away the target IN THE SCOPE is fine?

Umm, to the extent that the US army is there to kill people having guns with scopes seems pretty logical. Given that it isn't a Christian army, that would be a problem.

What's odd is people putting Christian codes onto the killing weapons they're manufacturing. Being so proudly Christian that you stamp bible code onto the killing weapons you manufacture seems an odd combination to me.

Bah again who the hell cares except nattering nabobs of nooginess. Go find something serious to worry about.

**malfred**

I hear they have these cool stab vests that you can pin a flag to...

**ShumaGorath**

Frazzled wrote:
sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its a serial number on a scope! BFD!

This is crazy talk Catch 22 heller nonsense. The serial number on the scope is evil bad but blowing away the target IN THE SCOPE is fine?

Umm, to the extent that the US army is there to kill people having guns with scopes seems pretty logical. Given that it isn't a Christian army, that would be a problem.

What's odd is people putting Christian codes onto the killing weapons they're manufacturing. Being so proudly Christian that you stamp bible code onto the killing weapons you manufacture seems an odd combination to me.

Bah again who the hell cares except nattering nabobs of nooginess. Go find something serious to worry about.

When operating against an enemy that uses an ideology of persecution to label the occupying force as invaders it's just a bad idea to do things with no actual value to our own combat forces that legitimizes their claims. If these numbers served a functional purpose, then I wouldn't care at all. But they don't. They are just christian bible quotes attached to the gun sights of guns that are being used predominantly to kill muslim religious extremists. If that doesn't seem utterly idiotic to you then you need to get your head checked.

**Frazzled**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its a serial number on a scope! BFD!

This is crazy talk Catch 22 heller nonsense. The serial number on the scope is evil bad but blowing away the target IN THE SCOPE is fine?

Umm, to the extent that the US army is there to kill people having guns with scopes seems pretty logical. Given that it isn't a Christian army, that would be a problem.

What's odd is people putting Christian codes onto the killing weapons they're manufacturing. Being so proudly Christian that you stamp bible code onto the killing weapons you manufacture seems an odd combination to me.

Bah again who the hell cares except nattering nabobs of nooginess. Go find something serious to worry about.

When operating against an enemy that uses an ideology of persecution to label the occupying force as invaders it's just a bad idea to do things with no actual value to our own combat forces that legitimizes their claims. If these numbers served a functional purpose, then I wouldn't care at all. But they don't. They are just christian bible quotes attached to the gun sights of guns that are being used predominantly to kill muslim religious extremists. If that doesn't seem utterly idiotic to you then you need to get your head checked.

Its irrelevant. Al Qaeda began attacks staing becuase US troops were near Mecca (wow you mean protecting against Iraq). No US troops in SA now.
You can kowtow to the terrorists and do what they say. Not I. Again it was a serial number and the point stands.

**ShumaGorath**

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
sebster wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its a serial number on a scope! BFD!

This is crazy talk Catch 22 heller nonsense. The serial number on the scope is evil bad but blowing away the target IN THE SCOPE is fine?

Umm, to the extent that the US army is there to kill people having guns with scopes seems pretty logical. Given that it isn't a Christian army, that would be a problem.

What's odd is people putting Christian codes onto the killing weapons they're manufacturing. Being so proudly Christian that you stamp bible code onto the killing weapons you manufacture seems an odd combination to me.

Bah again who the hell cares except nattering nabobs of nooginess. Go find something serious to worry about.

When operating against an enemy that uses an ideology of persecution to label the occupying force as invaders it's just a bad idea to do things with no actual value to our own combat forces that legitimizes their claims. If these numbers served a functional purpose, then I wouldn't care at all. But they don't. They are just christian bible quotes attached to the gun sights of guns that are being used predominantly to kill muslim religious extremists. If that doesn't seem utterly idiotic to you then you need to get your head checked.

Its irrelevant. Al Qaeda began attacks staing becuase US troops were near Mecca (wow you mean protecting against Iraq). No US troops in SA now.
You can kowtow to the terrorists and do what they say. Not I. Again it was a serial number and the point stands.

Funny, I didn't know Al Queda recruited directly from Al Queda. And here I thought actually helping to legitimize their claims might help them to recruit uncertain or more moderate muslim prospects. Glad to know that they are just some sort of ouroboros organization that can recruit from itself endlessly.

**Fateweaver**

To bring a little light-heartedness to this thread and this is about rifles.

"The Marine Corps Rifle Creed"

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I WILL...

My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. WE WILL HIT...

My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready. We will become part of each other. WE WILL...

Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. WE ARE THE SAVIORS OF MY LIFE.

So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!

*******************************************
I say let them keep stamping Bible Verses or part of them on rifles. As Frazz said it's making much ado about nothing.

**mattyrm**

Oddly enough i kinda agree with Shuma again, if it made the rifle better in some way, id be all for it. gak, im as pro-military as you can get with regards to kicking some ass over in the sandbox, but they dont DO anything, so its just.. you know.. needless.