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So. I just finished playing a 1000pt game against Grey Knights and sadly... the commander of the Eldar army lost. :(

I was using the Avatar and Eldrad as my HQs, two units of Dire Avengers, a unit of Howling Banshees, and some Fire Dragons. Going up against a Land Raider filled with Terminators, and just (regular?) Grey Knights. I rushed Avatar forward as soon as I could to get him going on the Land Raider... eh... just bad rolls all throughout the game. After that I tried to inch up my Fire Dragons to give them a chance to hit the tank.

The biggest thing is that I also kept my Banshees behind my Dire Avengers... which I have been told several times to keep them out in front and charge as soon as an enemy unit comes within range. But I'm always afraid that... how can they do well if they're up front-and-center getting shot at?

Keep in mind that I *would* have thrown the Fire Dragons into a Wave Serpent but sadly... those cost $$$ that I don't have.

Is there any good advice that I could use to put my mind at ease about my poor Banshees?

(PS/Sorry if this is in the wrong thread!)

Your banshees need to stay in cover until tghey can assualt. If you want, you can also use fortune on them to keep them alive longer. Inside a ruin would be a good idea if you wnat to keep them safe

Serpent. Really the only way to make sure Banshees get to their target in one piece.

Dump out if you know you are in assault range next turn, in cover is good as you'll want the cover save or just disembark in such a way that the Serpent is between you and them. So long as it's not high enough to put models under (and banshees are tall) even if 1/2 their head is invisible to the eyes of the firing squad they get cover from the Serpent or stay in it and enjoy the protection from anti-infantry guns, next turn dump out, move your 6", either use the serpent to provide cover fire or move it off to harass something else, fleet banshees and if done right assault in the assault phase.

I like cheap Serpents so they get the Scatter Laser turret and the Shuriken catapault stays a catapault.

It also kind of adds a buffer as enemies cannot movin within an inch unless they mean to assault. Park it sideways to make as large of a footprint as possible.

Running them might work but I think the only unit I'd run on foot that is assault based would be 10 harlies + Seer. Ignore terrain, veil trick is really great and fleet means a guaranteed 7" per turn MINIMUM, most of the time though it'll be at least 10" turn all the while getting a cover save for area terrain or 5+ from their holofield if they have to cross an open street.

Banshees IMO along with Dragons NEED a Serpent. Dires don't need one and Scorps don't either.

I prefer to run fire dragons in a falcon.
It is more expensive but has more survivability, holo-field and spirit stones are amazing, ignoring modifiers for AP1 etc a standard glancing hit will most likely do nothing, against a penetrating hit the opponent will need to roll 10+ on 2D6 rather than a 5+ on 1D6 and with spirit stones any stunned results = shaken. In the 68 games i've played so far with my Eldar ive lost my falcon twice, and won the game because of the amount of firepower needed to take it down.

As for banshees i only use them is have the spare points, and i use them on foot, harlequins are slightly better i think, but i don't use them often as i dislike T3 combat units.

Against grey knights i'd use...

Avatar 155
10 storm guardians w/ warlock w/ spiritseer 110
Wraithlord with wraithsword+2xflamers + EML 120
Wraithlord with wraithsword+2xflamers + EML 120
5 Pathfinders 120
5 Pathfinders 120
5 Warp spiders (exarch w/ twin spinners) 127
5 Warp spiders (exarch w/ twin spinners) 127

Total 999 points.

General deployment:
Avatar with 2 WL and SG deploy, the warlock making sure the WL's stay focused, the Avatar making the SG fearless and the Avatar and WL's providing a cover save for the SG
After that you can infiltrate the pathfinders onto objectives or in annihilation on top of very tall buildings (a 4+ cover saves become 2+) just make sure your out of the way of combat.
Warp spiders can start on the flanks or you can DS them in later.

General tactics:
In 1000 points your central unit will be able to smash anything aside, with 2 EML you can lay down some fire as you go and when you get close you have 4 flamers and a melta. Against vehicles the (re-rolling misses) WL's strength on 10+2D6 will rip apart anything, and against troops 2 WL and an Avatar will hurt... alot.
With the spiders, they are just awesome, incredibly fast and with 2 S6 shots each (4 s6 at BS5 from the exarch) your wounding marines on 2's and can easily rip apart light vehicles. And after firing you can jump back 2D6 out of sight.

Now this isn't a very "friendly list" and i wouldn't use it on most people, but i especially hate grey knights.

If you want to keep your current list mostly intact (in other words, pay the fewest $ to add models) then look at the harlies. An upgraded harlie squad cant easily be shot up at range, and spread out as a screen they give cover to all following units. This means that harlies followed up closely by banshees can often make it into cc without getting shot to pieces.

The falcon vs serpent debate will probably never end, however since most armies pack a good bit of melta the arguement does swing a good bit in favor of serpents as the preferred ride for fire dragons. The dragons are going to be dropped off close to the opponents army, their ride is going to eat whatever melta shots he has, so the serpent is actually more surviveable in that scenario.



Sliggoth

Yeah I have heard several different things in response to the Warp Spiders and the Harlies.

It seems many people on Dakka seem to really enjoy using Harlies and say that they're good and all that (as you can see from all the replies ) I dunno... it just seems like their invuln save (or is it just a 5+?) they're bound to die. But I do know the Shadowseer or whatever has the Veil of Tears helps but how good is it??

As far as the Warp Spiders go I think their flavor is absolutely amazing and the models are awesome too... and as far as their guns and the fact that they can bounce back in and out of combats and stuff seems really useful, but again, other than Dakka I've heard that they're just not really that useful.

I'm thinking for my next investment (other than a Serpent, that's for sure) I either want to do Dark Reapers or a Wraithlord or like Sliggoth said some Harlequins... something that can do some serious damage... suggestions?

On foot, the only way to run assault units on foot is outflanking scorpions (which is inferior to what is next) or Harlies.

Harlies are one of the most powerful assault units in the game. The secret sauce is there Veil of Tears. They can't be shot until they are really close. They work better as a counter assault unit than going after the enemy. Let them lurk until the enemy gets close, then charge and watch the fireworks. They hit SO hard, they will waste termies, genestealers, orks, you name it. Plus the ignore terrain, so they can charge through thick difficult terrain and catch people off guard.

Banshees struggle on foot, they are just too fragile. They need a transport. They also don't hit nearly as hard as harlies. Maybe proxy them until you can buy them?

Warp spiders are sub par. They aren't terrible, but they are very simply inferior to other choices. They struggle against pretty much anything but low save infantry. They can bounce out of combat....if they don't get run down which is what normally happens.

Pathfinders are not so hot either, really only good in 5th edition for sitting on an objective. They will win you games, but they won't kill anything because everyone has cover saves these days. Take a single squad, downgrade them to rangers, don't expect them to kill anything, but they will secure an objective for you.

Your army is somewhat similar to what I run and my list so far is undefeated. I play 2,000 points though, and I have a lot of the weaknesses you have in your list filled in.

Eldrad needs to fortune the Avatar every turn, he is your bread and better. After that, use powers as needed.

If you are going all foot, which is fun, you need LOTS of bodies or tough bodies.

I run this, which like I said, looks weak, but is in play really good. As I said, undefeated so far in a year of playing the list. I have only tied a few times, all other games have been wins against all kinds of armies (including mech, ehich it would appear to be weak against) and skilled players. You could build up to something like this pretty easily with what you have.

Eldrad
Avatar

20 Guardians, s.cannon, warlock, spirit seer
10 Dire avengers, no upgrades
10 Dire avengers, no upgrades
10 Dire avengers, no upgrades
10 Dire avengers, no upgrades
5 Rangers

10 Harlies, kisses, death jester, shadowseer
7 Fire dragons, Exarch, fire pike, crack shot

Wraithlord, EML, Bright lance
Wraithlord, EML, Bright lance
Wraithlord, EML, Bright lance

That is a foot list that gives you anti horde, anti tank and assault power. Your list is going in that direction so you may want to run with that.

Changes to make: Drop a WL for a 3 walker, dual scatterlaser war walker list.

Rangers dropped for jet bikes, fast scoring unit is awesome.

Hopefully that helps.

As far as working with what you have now, run everything as phalanx, keep the banshees behind the avatar and make sure all units have overlapping fields of support.

Good luck with it, pointy eared space elves are a lot of fun to play.

So after reading the replies and giving the Harlequins some thought... I've decided that I should give them a try.

The Harlies don't have power weapons, do they though?

But now... is it better that they have the Kisses or the Fusion Pistols?

Also, how would I buy the Harlequins, because I know on the gamesworkshop website, you can either buy the Harlequin Troupe for $30 that has 5 models I think and a Troupe Master... or you can buy 2 models for $15 dollars with either the kisses or the fusion pistols.

Regarding kisses and Fusion pistols, you can take both.
Every model can take kisses, 2 models can take a fusion pistol. The only model that has access to power weapons is the Troupe Master.

TheAnima wrote:So after reading the replies and giving the Harlequins some thought... I've decided that I should give them a try.

The Harlies don't have power weapons, do they though?

But now... is it better that they have the Kisses or the Fusion Pistols?

Also, how would I buy the Harlequins, because I know on the gamesworkshop website, you can either buy the Harlequin Troupe for $30 that has 5 models I think and a Troupe Master... or you can buy 2 models for $15 dollars with either the kisses or the fusion pistols.

I would arm them all with kisses. You don't need to get the ones with the kisses, you can easily use a counts as model, it isn't a huge difference.

TheAnima wrote:
Also, how would I buy the Harlequins, because I know on the gamesworkshop website, you can either buy the Harlequin Troupe for $30 that has 5 models I think and a Troupe Master... or you can buy 2 models for $15 dollars with either the kisses or the fusion pistols.

The box set has 6 models
-Troupe master
-2xfusion pistols
-2xkisses
-one plain

You could then get extra packs of
-2x kisses
-Shadowseer
-Death jester

That would give you 10 (however i don't use a Death jester, but use him as a counts as normal harlequin because he looks too cool not to use)

Eldar Own wrote:

TheAnima wrote:So after reading the replies and giving the Harlequins some thought... I've decided that I should give them a try.

The Harlies don't have power weapons, do they though?

But now... is it better that they have the Kisses or the Fusion Pistols?

Also, how would I buy the Harlequins, because I know on the gamesworkshop website, you can either buy the Harlequin Troupe for $30 that has 5 models I think and a Troupe Master... or you can buy 2 models for $15 dollars with either the kisses or the fusion pistols.

I would arm them all with kisses. You don't need to get the ones with the kisses, you can easily use a counts as model, it isn't a huge difference.

Eh, WYSIWYG suggests that all upgrades should be modeled. This includes harlequins kisses.

willydstyle wrote:Eh, WYSIWYG suggests that all upgrades should be modeled. This includes harlequins kisses.

Agreed, and as a fluffy Iyanden player (with harlequins as close combat support) I think using swords as kisses is just wrong. A kiss work in a totally different way than a sword.
And with this was more or less a reply to "it isn't a huge difference", not trying to use fluff as rules

Bleh, buying an extra box of models for 15 bucks isn't really in my budget, so to speak. I do have access to a full unit of Striking Scorpions and an exarch. The SSs are good in close combat yes? And with the Shadowstrike (that's where they outflank right? Or am I thinking of something else?) Would they be a good alternative for something CC?

I suppose that once I think about it, (and after being asked "what do you want to do with your army (ex. shooty, infantry, mech, etc)) that I really just like the flavor of everything really. Is there any way to get all of the facets of battle into an army and still have it be relatively successful?

The sword armed harlies can be turned into kiss armed harlies with very little work. I just used an exacto knife and a file; *poof* no more sword, just a short wicked looking hand held kiss. I kept the fusion pistols just for those rare occasions that its handy to have str8 ap1 shots.


Sliggoth


PS I rarely actually play with my harlies tho, I much prefer a more shooty aspect of the eldar. Why close to hth range when you can kill them at 60" instead?