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So, my field looks like this: (g = gaunt, HT = hive tyrant, Tervigon = tervigon and venom = venomthrope)

g g g g g g__g g g g g g__g g g g g g
g g g g g g __g g g g g g__g g g g g g
g g g g g g__g g g g g g __g g g g g g
______gg______gg___HT__gg
____Tervigon__Tervigon_Tervigon
______venom_venom_venom

Giving every one of those 60 gaunts (not to mention the ones that the Tervigon spawns), a 5+ cover save, Adrenal Glands, Toxin sacs and, with good psychic rolls, FNP. It also gives the big boys (tervigons and Hive Tyrant) a nice cover save as well. Not only that, but assaulting this mass of bugs is considered assaulting through dangerous terrain. And, everyone has Preferred Enemy from the HT's Old Adversary. Also, the HT's scything talons can be replaced with double twin-linked devourers, for 12 shots of Str 6 goodness with rerolls to hit.

Fun. Time to buy some gaunts.

Too big a formation. Your actual movement will be slowed to a crawl trying to keep things in formation when you have terrain and things to squeeze around. WIll be extremely hard to get gants into speed-bump position (as you want your largest broods to be charging) and keep things in synapse range.

Most importantly. The Hive tyrant is out in the open!. This is bad, very bad. Yes he can get a 5+ cover-save easily, but whats wrong with a 4+ cover?

Razerous wrote:Too big a formation. Your actual movement will be slowed to a crawl trying to keep things in formation when you have terrain and things to squeeze around. WIll be extremely hard to get gants into speed-bump position (as you want your largest broods to be charging) and keep things in synapse range.

Most importantly. The Hive tyrant is out in the open!. This is bad, very bad. Yes he can get a 5+ cover-save easily, but whats wrong with a 4+ cover?

Yeah, movement would be tough, but remember, I can snake the gaunts and still receive the save, so long as they're within 6" of the venomthropes. And the HT isn't the centerpiece. If you're firing at the HT, that's perfectly fine (besides, I'd have to find a 4+ piece of cover that doesn't move with the swarm). You're not firing at the 60 gaunts (+30 or so a turn from the Tervigons) and the tervigons and, most importantly, the venomthropes. The HT is a distraction and actually, the least important part of the formation.

Not to mention this is the front of the army. The back is a Deep-striking Trygon Prime, deep-striking Parasite of Mortrex with 30 goyles and a unit of Lictors.

Think that was it.

A re-roll to-hit is the biggest force multiplier there is. It gives you the most, it stacks with everything else the best.

Think about it this way, would you prefer re-rolls to hit or re-rolls on successful enemy saves? Which would net you more kills?

Also, the hive tyrant can (or I think should) provide +1 to reserves to allow all that deep-striking stuff to come in more reliably & not piecemeal. If it really isnt that important, why not field a fourth tervigon? Or a Warrior prime? etc.

I have a couple Manticores and 16 Lascannons that would like a word with your army

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:I have a couple Manticores and 16 Lascannons that would like a word with your army

I'm so tired of statements like this, but i'll counter this.

I have a couple Zoanthropes being deepstruck into your back field that would like to have a word with your Manticores.

Not in that army. He's got 3 Venomthropes. That's all his elites choices, correct?

I was under the impression that he only shared part of his list. But I suppose his did say what else was included in his list. Its not that he couldn't include those units though.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Not in that army. He's got 3 Venomthropes. That's all his elites choices, correct?

No, brood of three so that is only one choice. So could still have two Spore Pods of Zoanthropes coming at your back field to take out tanks. The Blob shown is about 1250 points so still plenty of room for anti-tank.

So what are your 16 Lascannon on? Vendettas? Hvy Weapon squads?

Dont play the theoryhammer game.

Huh, here's a blast from the past, but bear with me.

Vulkan Marines.

Yep, the old 'melta/flamer overload' list that was so hyped up for a while could do pretty well against the new nids. Meltas for the big bugs, flamers to clear gaunt screens (and, since they're TL can put some hurt on the venomthropes themselves). Clear out the gaunt screen with flamers, ID the venoms with the meltas (I'd be surprised if they were t5, but I clearly don't have the codex), then throw assterms into the MCs, since you're not charging through dangerous terrain any more.

CKO wrote:Dont play the theoryhammer game.

What is the point of discussing tactics if you are not going to discuss possible matchups?

There's a difference between "Venomthropes can be dealt with using X"
and "So, you deep strike X unit into Y location. Then I shoot X unit using T unit's gun V"
"Then I kill T unit with my F unit."
"Well F unit didn't know that K unit and L unit..."


There's discussing tactics, and then there's playing theoryhammer.

Orkestra wrote:There's discussing tactics, and then there's playing theoryhammer.

Well I am here discussing tactics. Personally I think the Venomthrope is too weak, but I am interested to see if it is possible to make an army list where it works?

As for the OP's blob I think it has too many Tervigons.
Replace one with a T'Fex and you help with the anti-tank. Adding two Spore Pods of Zoanthropes would take the army to 1750.

Razerous wrote:A re-roll to-hit is the biggest force multiplier there is. It gives you the most, it stacks with everything else the best.

Think about it this way, would you prefer re-rolls to hit or re-rolls on successful enemy saves? Which would net you more kills?

Also, the hive tyrant can (or I think should) provide +1 to reserves to allow all that deep-striking stuff to come in more reliably & not piecemeal. If it really isnt that important, why not field a fourth tervigon? Or a Warrior prime? etc.

Depends. If I have BS3 and shoot at models with a 3+ save, I'd rather take the reroll on enemy saves.

Reroll to hit: (1/2+1/4)(1/3) = 0.25 of wounds kill
Reroll saves: (1/2)(1/3+2/9) = 0.55 of wounds kill

Don't forget reroll to wound on models that have Rending.

Aduro wrote:Don't forget reroll to wound on models that have Rending.

If you mean what I think you mean, it's rarely worth it to reroll a successful non-rending wound to hope for a rend. I did the math for it a while back for Harlequins and keeping successful wounds always was the better choice.

No, I think he just means re-rolling failed to wound rolls. Forces more saves and causes more auto wounds.

Oh okay, armour saves are a bad example. Its pretty useful (Statistically superior), anything considered. But that ability doesnt exist.

My point is; with a re-roll to hit, not only do you get more hits, you get more chances to re-roll to wound aswell (which in some cases means more rends, otherwise just more wounds/saves) and it greatly improves the puny WS3 MC's that are abundant in the new dex. ws3 + reroll yields a bigger improvement than ws4 (or rather, hitting on 3's) with a re-roll.

Sorry for getting off topic. The venomthrope basically provides more MC targets to shoot at (itself) as it otherwise adds 30% wounds to every other MC (so if you add all that up, thats another 6 wound beastie, if its protecting 3 MC's). It does lots of awesome things

You could only say the Venomthrope is 'adding wounds' if there was no other cover. There are lots of units that can give a 4+ cover to Monsters so why settle for a 5+?

I have not had a chance to play it however it looks very vulnerable. It will at least soak up some enemy fire which may be enough to get the other units into combat. I just think spending those points on offence that can remove the opponents weapons is better than a limited defence.

Lyracian wrote:You could only say the Venomthrope is 'adding wounds' if there was no other cover. There are lots of units that can give a 4+ cover to Monsters so why settle for a 5+?

I have not had a chance to play it however it looks very vulnerable. It will at least soak up some enemy fire which may be enough to get the other units into combat. I just think spending those points on offence that can remove the opponents weapons is better than a limited defence.

It's not so vulnerable - it's small enough that it should be able to hide fairly completely behind a couple of Tervigons.

The real question: is it worth the Elite slot? Jury's still out for me - it's got some lovely synergy with the Tervigon/gant formation, but Zoanthropes & Hive Guard really are that good.

Venomthropes "could" be "ok" if and only if they didn't compete with Hive Guard/Zoanthrops/DeathLeaper in the eliete slots. You need thoes other options much more than you need a T4 insta-killable guy that can't be hidden in units units unlike big meks.

Ask yourself, how well do foot slogging Orks with a KFF mek as their only defense fare against most armies? The answer is very poorly and at least they can hide their KFF in other units, where as venomthropes can not.


Sorry, that unit is just plain fail.

puma713 wrote:So, my field looks like this: (g = gaunt, HT = hive tyrant, Tervigon = tervigon and venom = venomthrope)

g g g g g g__g g g g g g__g g g g g g
g g g g g g __g g g g g g__g g g g g g
g g g g g g__g g g g g g __g g g g g g
______gg______gg___HT__gg
____Tervigon__Tervigon_Tervigon
______venom_venom_venom

I like the formation. Simple and effective.

Any army that wants to assault will need to deal with your venomthropes first, which will be enjoying a 4+ cover. They are vulnerable to long range instant kill weapons, like ML. That seems to be a re-occurring theme with the 'nids.

HTs can go down surprisingly quickly. I took one down with just 2 rounds of firing from 2 dakka preds. If your HT is taking fire, you can move him behind a Tervigon for cover. A better solution would be a few guard to add some wounds. This is important as the HT is your main melle punch.

My question is, what is your strategy with this formation? Do you march it across the board to claim objectives on the other side of the table? How do you plan on holding objectives near your table edge if thats the case?

I like the venomtrhope. But yes, he does compete with hiveguard, the deathleaper and the zoans for the slots. If you do take any remember that one is two squishy. Take at least 2... and then protect them.

@Darwinn69

"Ask yourself, how well do foot slogging Orks with a KFF mek as their only defense fare against most armies? The answer is very poorly and at least they can hide their KFF in other units, where as venomthropes can not. "

They win tourneys. Where have you been? Kan Wall Orks, Kult o' Speed Orks, almost every Ork build that exists use the KFF, and gets along fine.

@Lyracian:

I really don't buy the argument that getting adhoc cover saves for your monsters is as good as a Venomthrope squad. If the enemy is elevated, or at a slightly different angle they'll get right by. That's a lot like saying that you don't need a KFF, because you can just put the trukks behind each other and cover the front with Stormboyz modeled standing on their tippy toes or carrying flags. It doesn't fly.

Infantry can be dependably covered by infantry. Monsters and vehicles are going to want the Smoke/KFF/Venomthrope.

@Janthkin: I'm not sure that it can hide fairly completely behind a couple of Tervigons. If someone can glimpse a milimeter of it they can shoot at it. It's infantry, however, so it gets a for real 4+ cover save. As a consequence they aren't shooting at the monsters, and it can go to ground for 3+ if you've moved far enough.

I think you'll have a hard time hiding Venomthropes behind Fexes and Tervigons and what not, depending on how they're modeled. I've seen'heard a lot of people making theirs by using two or three sets of Scything Talons for legs. Those aren't going to block LOS to something behind it very well. I can just see people shooting under a Tervigon/T-Fex to hit the Venomthrope behind it.

I'm also in the camp of the VT being a great unit that sits in a slot that I really need to bust vehicles. In one-off games against certain builds, I think they'd be golden.

Wonder if the Battle Missions book will allow monkeying with the org chart like the old missions used to? A 4th elites slot would be all I need to fit at least one into my army.

40kenthusiast wrote:
@Lyracian:
I really don't buy the argument that getting adhoc cover saves for your monsters is as good as a Venomthrope squad. If the enemy is elevated, or at a slightly different angle they'll get right by. That's a lot like saying that you don't need a KFF, because you can just put the trukks behind each other and cover the front with Stormboyz modeled standing on their tippy toes or carrying flags. It doesn't fly.
Infantry can be dependably covered by infantry. Monsters and vehicles are going to want the Smoke/KFF/Venomthrope.

It is nothing like saying lets cheat with modelling. For the cost of one Venomthrope I can have 9 Gargoyles who are going to give my Tyrant a much better cover save. If you are elevated enough to see over them, you would be able to see a Venomthrope behind Monsters and target it.

KFF works because it is on an IC that can hide in a Transport. Both stop the unit being targeted directly. A Venomthrope may soak a turn or two of shooting before dying which might be enough to get your troops into melee. I just think it would be more profitable to use Zoanthropes or Hive Guard to butcher their unit so it never shoots again.

labmouse42 wrote:

puma713 wrote:So, my field looks like this: (g = gaunt, HT = hive tyrant, Tervigon = tervigon and venom = venomthrope)

g g g g g g__g g g g g g__g g g g g g
g g g g g g __g g g g g g__g g g g g g
g g g g g g__g g g g g g __g g g g g g
______gg______gg___HT__gg
____Tervigon__Tervigon_Tervigon
______venom_venom_venom

I like the formation. Simple and effective.

Any army that wants to assault will need to deal with your venomthropes first, which will be enjoying a 4+ cover. They are vulnerable to long range instant kill weapons, like ML. That seems to be a re-occurring theme with the 'nids.

HTs can go down surprisingly quickly. I took one down with just 2 rounds of firing from 2 dakka preds. If your HT is taking fire, you can move him behind a Tervigon for cover. A better solution would be a few guard to add some wounds. This is important as the HT is your main melle punch.

My question is, what is your strategy with this formation? Do you march it across the board to claim objectives on the other side of the table? How do you plan on holding objectives near your table edge if thats the case?

Well, to be honest, there was no "strategy" yet. I was thinking, "How could I make a swarm army?" Not just a WAAC army. The main part that I like is that all of these units, but the venomthrope unit and the HT unit, are scoring. I like that. And as far as objectives on my table edge, I had considered a fourth tervigon. But I'm not certain yet. Still bouncing around ideas.

I like the thinking and synergy of the list even if it is a bit rigid. I'd be concerned about pie-plate armies, deep striking flamers and Jaws coming down on those tervigons.