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New Tyranid Codex:

If I'm reading the rules correctly, toxin sacs grant Poison (4+). Which means Strength vs Toughness is ignored and a 4+ is the new to wound target. If your Str is => to target toughness you get to reroll a failure to wound.

With most biomorphs being stripped out of the codex, I note that Toxin Sacs remain for almost (if not) all units. When would this ever be advantageous for say a Tygon or Carnifex? (Or other 6+ str creature)

At Str 6 you wound better than 4+ unless your target is Toughness 6. Against a Toughness 3 or 4 creature the two rolls for a 4+ is statistically a handicap. Even worse for the Carnifex at Str 9.

w/ poison (4+) yeilds a net 75% chance for a wound (4+ w/ re-roll if failed) The union of A and B, where P(A) and P(B) are each .5 is .75
vs
w/o poison: 2+ (Str 6 vs To 4) yields 83%.

Is there an FAQ that "fixes" this issue? (only using poison rule vs native roll at players option, or in some circumstances?)

So say you have S8 and your target has T7. That would be 3+ to wound, normally. Now, if you had S7 and your target has T8, then that would be 5+ to wound normally.

In the second case, S7 < T8, the Poison would convert the to wound roll to a flat 4+. In the first case, S7 > T6, the roll would still be 3+, but re-rolled in the case of failure.

So you can see how Poison means that every Monstrous Creature hit counts against non-vehicle enemies, helping to ensure that hits are converted into wounds.

Its wasted on anything str6 or more ...


... well unless you combine it with implant attack (still only on S6 units). After all you want to up your chance of rolling a 6 so as to cause instant death. Only really worth it agaist units of multiple wounds that are T4-T6 (in other words thunderwolves, nobbikers and other nids)

(edit if your wondering odds goes from ..1/6 (or 6/36) 16.6% to 9/36 25% an increase of 8.3%)

Tri wrote:Its wasted on anything str6 or more ...


... well unless you combine it with implant attack

Or if you specifically want to suit up a HT for big game hunting, i.e C'Tan, Wraithlords, Avatars, Talos etc. There are definitely times the upgrade could be useful but there are many other units who will benefit more.

I thought it was use-less untill i re-read the poisoned weapons rule.

It says that it wounds on a fixed amount but if it normally would wound on a lower roll it can re-roll making them an Ok biomorph (still not as good as adrenal glands IMO).

However i have a question, (no point making a seperate thread) is this re-roll on the poisoned weaopn roll or what you'd wound on normally?

E.g. A tyranid warrior with toxin sacs hits an eldar aspect warrior (T3) since it would normally wound on a 3+ it gets a re-roll? But is this re-roll on a 4+ (the poison) or a 3+ (what it would wound normally)??

It would be 4+ with a re-roll

Thanks muchly again Gwar!

Gwar! is wrong, as usual. You get a re-roll to the usual to wound roll you'd get for SvT.

Nurglitch wrote:Gwar! is wrong, as usual. You get a re-roll to the usual to wound roll you'd get for SvT.

LMFAO. "As Usual"? Funny.

No, you don't. To Quote page 42:

They do not rely on a comparison of Strength and Toughness to wound - they always wound on a fixed number, generally shown in brackets. In most cases this is 4+. [...] In addition, if the Strength of the wielder is the same or higher than the Toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls to wound in close combat.

There you have it. You ALWAYS roll on the fixed number, and if your S>=T then you must re-roll failed rolls. You CANNOT use your normal Strength and you certainly do NOT get to use your normal strength AND get a re-roll.

Gwar is 100% right,
Which is why it rules for rending critters :-)

Toxin sacs & rending, if you wanted those extra anti-armour wounds

It says that it wounds on a fixed amount but if it normally would wound on a lower roll it can re-roll making them an Ok biomorph (still not as good as adrenal glands IMO).

You are wrong here the re-rol is if your strength is higher than their toughness. For instance if you had S4 vs T4 you'd get the re-roll regardless if it was poison (4+) or poison (2+). The sacs are great on anything with S4 or below always.

E.g. A tyranid warrior with toxin sacs hits an eldar aspect warrior (T3) since it would normally wound on a 3+ it gets a re-roll? But is this re-roll on a 4+ (the poison) or a 3+ (what it would wound normally)??

It is the poison value again. So in the example against T3 you have a 75% chance of causing a wound, just as you would against T4.

You get the reroll if your Str EQUALS their Tou, not just for being higher.

you get to re-roll if you fail to wound.
That sounds super useful to me, considering how many 1s I roll to wound with my carnifex

Man I so want to hit a ctan with 20 gargoyles and watch it die,
Hehe.

Lost Ripper wrote:Man I so want to hit a ctan with 20 gargoyles and watch it die,
Hehe.

I agree. There is something wonderful about killing C'tans, Wraithlords and Greater deamons with bat-gaunts.

20 Gargoyles= 40 attacks, 20 hits, 3 of which are auto wounds, then another 9 become wounds (4+). That leaves Mr. 4+, 4 wounds and Mr. 3+, 3 wounds looking mighty nervous with 12 saves to make. (Rough mathhammer- not exactly 12)

I would recommend against poison on S6 creatures but Tri has a good point, if combined with implant attacks, it is an extra shot at the 6's. I hadnt considered that. As to hitting a Ctan w/ gargoyles, if a Deciever player is foolsh enough to accept an assault from poisoned weapons, they deserve to die.

Taking poison to make a S6 model's implant attacks a 1/18 chance better doesn't seem worth it.

lordrevege wrote:you get to re-roll if you fail to wound.
That sounds super useful to me, considering how many 1s I roll to wound with my carnifex

Your Carnifex would need a rerollable 4+ to wound a grot. A single set of scything talons is what you want.

Scything talons reroll to-hit though.

Carnifex reaqlly, really dont need poison(4+), unless you know you will be facing lots of WL and Ctan. But that's list tailoring for the most part, which is not something thats good practice anyway!

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Taking poison to make a S6 model's implant attacks a 1/18 chance better doesn't seem worth it.

lordrevege wrote:you get to re-roll if you fail to wound.
That sounds super useful to me, considering how many 1s I roll to wound with my carnifex

Your Carnifex would need a rerollable 4+ to wound a grot. A single set of scything talons is what you want.

? you mean an impovemet of 1/12, right ? (1/6x3/6 = 3/36 =1/12)

Still as i said Str5 is the most you really want it on, and even then its questionable (stick it on every one Str3-4 and you can't go wrong)

For some reason I was thinking that ScyTals rerolled to wound. Yes, it's 1/12, still not worth making your attacks worse against anything T7 or lower by 1/12.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Scything talons reroll to-hit though.

Carnifex reaqlly, really dont need poison(4+), unless you know you will be facing lots of WL and Ctan. But that's list tailoring for the most part, which is not something thats good practice anyway!

Fluff wise I thought that is what Tyranids do, they tailor themselves to who they are fighting. I think they put it in there for people who know who they are going up agaisnt. Also if someone is list tailoring, and then not playing that list, it will nerf them a bit so I guess he or she would deserve it then. Nothing wrong with list tailoring if both parties know ahead of time what they are fighitng and agree to do it.

Lost Ripper wrote:Man I so want to hit a ctan with 20 gargoyles and watch it die,
Hehe.

Except that, in the case of Nightbringer, he can just push you out of combat with him before you are able to strike, and the Deceiver can just leave combat, leaving your unit in the open and as a target for the Necron shooting phase....

BRB p42 wrote:Poisoned Weapons:
Poisoned weapons range from blades coated in venom to hypodermic claws. They do not rely on a comparison of Strength and Toughness to wound - they always wound on a fixed number, generally shown in brackets. In most cases this 4+. Some venoms are so lethal that the merest drop can kill - these may wound on a 3+, or even 2+(as described in the appropriate Codex). In addition, if the Strength of the wielder is the same or higher than the Toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls to wound in close combat. These weapons confer no advantage against vehicles.

Now let's say you have a S4 creature with Poison 4+. He goes against a T4 model.
If you are attacking with a poisoned weapon you "do not rely on a comparison of Strength and Toughness to wound", so when the S4 creature with Poison rolls to wound he rolls a 4+. Now, "in addition, [since] the Strength of the wielder is the same [as] than the Toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls to wound in close combat." So any failed rolls to wound I must re-roll.

That seems pretty straight forward.
Now here is where I'm confused.

Let's say you have a S6 creature with Poison 4+ attacking a T4 model.
1) In the past I have played we would roll to wound using the model's S6, so wounding on 2+, and then re-rolling the failed wounds. So let's say you get 3 hits, needing 2's to wound with a re-roll you get 2.917, where as without the re-roll you get 2.5. A considerable increase.

2) After re-reading the above rule, however, it appears that you "always wound on a fixed number, generally shown in brackets". Now if I understand that correctly, the 2+ to wound on the first roll becomes a 4+, because you are not using your S to T, you would then have to re-roll the missed results, yielding 2.25 total wounds. This is LESS than if you didn't have poison attacks.

Did I miss something? Have I been playing #1 incorrectly this whole time? Is it supposed to be #2 via RAW?
This obviously makes a huge difference with poison being available to a lot of Bug choices via Toxin Sacs.

paidinfull wrote:

BRB p42 wrote:Poisoned Weapons:
Poisoned weapons range from blades coated in venom to hypodermic claws. They do not rely on a comparison of Strength and Toughness to wound - they always wound on a fixed number, generally shown in brackets. In most cases this 4+. Some venoms are so lethal that the merest drop can kill - these may wound on a 3+, or even 2+(as described in the appropriate Codex). In addition, if the Strength of the wielder is the same or higher than the Toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls to wound in close combat. These weapons confer no advantage against vehicles.

Now let's say you have a S4 creature with Poison 4+. He goes against a T4 model.
If you are attacking with a poisoned weapon you "do not rely on a comparison of Strength and Toughness to wound", so when the S4 creature with Poison rolls to wound he rolls a 4+. Now, "in addition, [since] the Strength of the wielder is the same [as] than the Toughness of the victim, the wielder must re-roll failed rolls to wound in close combat." So any failed rolls to wound I must re-roll.

That seems pretty straight forward.
Now here is where I'm confused.

Let's say you have a S6 creature with Poison 4+ attacking a T4 model.
1) In the past I have played we would roll to wound using the model's S6, so wounding on 2+, and then re-rolling the failed wounds. So let's say you get 3 hits, needing 2's to wound with a re-roll you get 2.917, where as without the re-roll you get 2.5. A considerable increase.

2) After re-reading the above rule, however, it appears that you "always wound on a fixed number, generally shown in brackets". Now if I understand that correctly, the 2+ to wound on the first roll becomes a 4+, because you are not using your S to T, you would then have to re-roll the missed results, yielding 2.25 total wounds. This is LESS than if you didn't have poison attacks.

Did I miss something? Have I been playing #1 incorrectly this whole time? Is it supposed to be #2 via RAW?
This obviously makes a huge difference with poison being available to a lot of Bug choices via Toxin Sacs.

#1 is Incorrect. #2 is Correct. Playing it as #1 is not playing by the rules. Playing it as #2 is playing by the rules.

Yeah #2 is correct you always use the poison roll number regardless of S vs T comparison.

On S6 creatures this makes the Toxin sacs less useful unles you know you are facing MCs.

Basically all you little guys should have them and then the big guys (except Tervigons) should have adrenal glands instead.

Iboshi2 wrote:
20 Gargoyles= 40 attacks, 20 hits, 3 of which are auto wounds, then another 9 become wounds (4+). That leaves Mr. 4+, 4 wounds and Mr. 3+, 3 wounds looking mighty nervous with 12 saves to make. (Rough mathhammer- not exactly 12)

Not quite. It is 20 hits, about 7 of them auto wound, and another 6 become wounds