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I know the topic is rather vague- but the issues I'm looking for help with arent exactly typical modeling issues of what glue, or how to prime something etc etc. Ive been modeling for many years and am rather competent at it, better than most- but not perfect in any regard.

Some of you may have noticed I sort of stopped posting rather abruptly at the end of the summer. And thats because Ive had some health issues that went from mild nuisance, to signifigant problem. Now, Im not gonna die, or anything like that.

But long story short, my hands have gotten a bit twitchy, and I drop things rather often. So, lookin back, thats probly why I dropped a rather large pair of hardware shears into my big toe in july (I even started an injury thread off that one lol). So, one of the obvious problems of the hobby- is all the sharp stuff that one can injure themselves with.

The other obvious problem to deal with is detail work on painting, and sculpting. Its probly still doable, but incredibly frustrating having to do over & over what used ot be simple just a few months ago. I mean, just hitting the raised egde on a SM shoulder pad right now has become a challenging prospect where I used to be able to hit a dozen of them cleanly on the fig in less than 10 minutes.

So, what Im looking for I guess, is are there any other gamers that have, or had to transition into any sort of disability with thier modeling skills? Im sorta going nuts with nothing to do, and I cant really play video games because of the same problems(except turn based stuff- and Civ 4 is gettin old!) but every time Ive sat down and tried to use the same techniques that have just sort of become habit over the last 10 years or so- the pitiful results Im getting have me fail my Ld check and I flee for a week or two.

So, any brainstorming on how to get the modeling & painting done while working around shaking hands?

I noticed that the more one tries to control the muscle on the hand ( for any reason ) the more it'll create spasms which leads to twitching.

One way i deal with shaky / twitchy / freezing / no sugar or food in the morning twitchng is by:

I make the focus of the whole hand = only holding the brush. The rest of the stroke / direction and flow of the brush is controlled by fore arm.

In a way this is very similar to chinese calligraphy where their elbow dont even touch the table ,
give that a try , it should be very helpful.

On a side note , is it ok to ask what lead to this current condition? I might be able to help further with more info.
Its not some sort of car accident regarding shoulder middle back muscle is it o_o?

Well the first thing I would pick up is, a heavy bottomed modeling vice, with or without a magnifying glass.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220544221662&ih=012&category=42337&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

I own one and I love it,


Without prying to much into your health condition, does the shaking follow any sort of pattern? i.e is it always back and forth, or up and down.

If not you can attach the brush to area between your thumb and pointer finger using a cloth covered piece of elastic (a hair tie would work great) and use your free hand to steady the brush one, painting like this is kind of like pointing at the area you want painted.

Next time you are at a doctor about this problem ask them to harass your insurance company into buying you one of these:


This is a simple model but it its good for an example. They make super fancy ones that stabilize the "pencil" and it should be covered by you insurance.

LunaHound wrote:I noticed that the more one tries to control the muscle on the hand ( for any reason ) the more it'll create spasms which leads to twitching.

One way i deal with shaky / twitchy / freezing / no sugar or food in the morning twitchng is by:

I make the focus of the whole hand = only holding the brush. The rest of the stroke / direction and flow of the brush is controlled by fore arm.

In a way this is very similar to chinese calligraphy where their elbow dont even touch the table ,
give that a try , it should be very helpful.

On a side note , is it ok to ask what lead to this current condition? I might be able to help further with more info.
Its not some sort of car accident regarding shoulder middle back muscle is it o_o?

Its a neuro issue of some sort, possibly MS. Which is basicly a short circuit of the nerve signals. So the twitching isnt just in my hands- thats just where the effects of the fine motoer control are noticeable. I didnt wanna mention I keep biting my tongue, stumbling, and I now have to watch my fingers as I type


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Clthomps wrote:Well the first thing I would pick up is, a heavy bottomed modeling vice, with or without a magnifying glass.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220544221662&ih=012&category=42337&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

I own one and I love it,


Without prying to much into your health condition, does the shaking follow any sort of pattern? i.e is it always back and forth, or up and down.

If not you can attach the brush to area between your thumb and pointer finger using a cloth covered piece of elastic (a hair tie would work great) and use your free hand to steady the brush one, painting like this is kind of like pointing at the area you want painted.

Next time you are at a doctor about this problem ask them to harass your insurance company into buying you one of these:


This is a simple model but it its good for an example. They make super fancy ones that stabilize the "pencil" and it should be covered by you insurance.

Ty for the suggestion on the vice, I have one of those older than most of the space marines in use today(12 years old now I think...) Its been great for assembly, since the twitches suck for gluing arms to bodies in a balanced manner It does help stabilize half the paint process, but its also very awkward to paint small pieces around. Maybe I just need some new arms that are a little more limber, the ones on mine arent that easy to move since the ball joints are kind of dented these days.

And the ring thing is something else I tried, a freind with arthritis uses something similar. It helped a little, but seemed to cause as many new problems as it solved. so I'll save it for another time

im sorry to hear about your health problems.. and about breaking models :( i have a .. not physical twitching condition.. but something ive noticed as of late ive been painting and for about a second my vision will... like shake back and forth and i cant see when it happens.. but i know how it feels to have to go over things again and again .. it sucks.. but after a while its something you just gotta try to ... deal with . no idea how to help you.. maybe if you had a friend assemble the mini's to your specifications and you could paint um ..

ouch. A hobby vise is a good suggestion as it takes out at least one variable. The other thing you might experiment with is changing up your technique. Not sure how you paint, but using the edge of a large flat brush is actually pretty forgiving. Even a little bit of shaking won;t move the edge off the figure and it's big and flat enough to put a ncie line on any hard line.

If it's any help, I use those gold or silver pens for things like shoulder rims, less messy to re-do if you stray too far, and the ink seems pretty long lasting.

I use rather efficient techniques, or used. Ive tried adapteing, using different brushes & such. But most people seem to think a muscle twitch or spasm is just a back and forth shaking, like when you shake your paint. And whatever I have going on is a bit more wiggly, with some side to side and back & forth mess going on.

So, a flat brush solves the problem in one dimension, but just makes it a fatter problem in another direction

Do you guys think that it might just be a better idea to switch the subject material? By that I mean paint and conversion wise everyone knows what SM and IG stuff is supposed to look like- with Tyranids being the new flavor- and very organic(and something I havent ever really painted) perhaps starting on something thats a fresh sort of canvas might be a direction to try? I mean, I have an airbrush and a buncha stuff I could use for some good dip washing...

sounds like a great idea.. i love nids got about 2k worth atm..

Hang in there...

My wrist (now)
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Banditohound/Wrist2.jpg

I started out painting, not being able to hold a brush, and transitioned into modeling (plus tons of Lego kits in between helped my coordination as well).

Here are some tips that help me;

Historical gamers like to paint the figures white-glued on a paint stirrer or cheap wooden ruler, 5-10 at a time (for control), or individually glued on a “large” nail head (nails let you stab into Styrofoam/Clay for control).

I find both helpful, but prefer the nail method for metal GW figures, as they are heavy/large, plus if you are using a wash/dip method a lot easier; just get an old coffee can, dip the figure while holding the nail, and turn it upside-down into the coffee can and spin it back and forth between both your hands, the excess will splash on the sides of the can, thus no globs.

Secret sauce; http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html

Others use “Water-based” Minwax wood stain diluted with water.

Good luck!

Mistress of minis wrote:Its a neuro issue of some sort, possibly MS.

If you think it could possibly be MS, then my advice would be to see a doctor.

Breotan wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:Its a neuro issue of some sort, possibly MS.

If you think it could possibly be MS, then my advice would be to see a doctor.

Gee- thanks for that bit of brilliance, Im so glad I came here for medical advice...oh wait....I came here for hobby advice. And at least one clown it would seem

I go see SEVERAL doctors for medical advice.

I think there are clear indications that she HAS seen a doctor, given her comments. I sincerely doubt that one could self diagnose that one's health problems might be MS. Likely, her doctor is currently eliminating the possibilities to find out specifically the issue (and hopefully eliminate the possibility of MS). *Edit-AH, I was correct.*
I don't personally have MS however my hands do shake quite a lot when I paint, and this means I've got a lot of problems when it comes to painting details like eyes, etc. I've developed my painting techniques around this. Using the flat of the brush instead of the tip and drawing it along the detail works well for me, but my shakes are not TOO severe, so I think it would depend on a few things whether this would work for you. I still end up in many cases, specifically the raised part of an SM shoulderpad as you mentioned, overpainting and actually getting the shoulderpad, forcing me to repaint the same area a few times, but if my strokes are short and as careful as I can make them, usually they come out all right. Parkinson's runs in my family and while I doubt I will ever develop it anywhere NEAR full blown I do think it's maybe one reason I get the shakes in my hands.
I think the idea of moving to a more organic type of model sounds like a great plan. Even adapting your painting technique on your current models might work. Have you considered for IG (possibly not SM, but you never know) some sort of camouflage paint scheme? Probably not digital camo as that would likely be MORE difficult if not less, but that way potentially random spots of colour would not necessarily look out of place. With 'nids or even chaos demons depending on how the twitches hit you it could be possible to turn what would otherwise be a disability into a benefit. I might even suggest looking at models that have broad areas of flat armour or flesh for you to work with, and fewer fine details (because it will give you a broader canvas to work with and frustrate you less if you keep on mucking up the fine details of a model like an SM). Even a 'nid army composed of mainly monstrous creatures could be quite interesting to do.
The nice thing about 'nids as well is that if there are particular areas that cause you problems to paint (eyes, for example) then converting the model to omit those details is a relatively easy process and not out of place for such constantly evolving creatures. It can also make for a fun theme!
For me the real thrill of the hobby comes from converting and modelling, not so much from painting, but when I do paint I have some similar frustrations, likely nowhere near yours, but as I'm a less accomplished painter overall I would assume your frustrations would be exponentially magnified. My biggest suggestion is this: Don't expect yourself to produce the quantity you used to and get the same quality. Take the opportunity to take your time, and paint your miniatures at a pace that the problem you're having supports to a quality that pleases you. Don't think of it as a failure. If you can produce 1 miniature to the same standard, or even close, that you once set yourself to I think that is an accomplishment worth crowing about. I think there are very few of us out there who in the same situation would be able to find the will to even pursue our hobby, let alone hold ourselves to the same standards of mass production. Take your time. It might mean learning new techniques, and producing miniatures at a slower pace, and for a while it may feel as though you've been set back a few years, but in the long run you may find yourself even happier with what you produce in the future because you were challenged by something unforeseen and managed to acclimate, if not fully overcome it (although I truly hope you do).
And the fact that you're still trying, still engaged in the hobby we all enjoy, and still fighting to be the best painter/modeller you can be should inspire all of us who are just too lazy to get to work on that next model to redouble our efforts and actually produce something. It may not be much, as you have no idea who I am, but your determination really means something to me.

Mistress of minis wrote:

Breotan wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:Its a neuro issue of some sort, possibly MS.

If you think it could possibly be MS, then my advice would be to see a doctor.

Gee- thanks for that bit of brilliance, Im so glad I came here for medical advice...oh wait....I came here for hobby advice. And at least one clown it would seem

I go see SEVERAL doctors for medical advice.

I dont think Breotan had any bad intention to what he said.
I think because we arnt doctors we dont have the knowledge to fix the MS problem in order for your hobby experience to improve.

rexscarlet wrote:Hang in there...

My wrist (now)
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Banditohound/Wrist2.jpg

I started out painting, not being able to hold a brush, and transitioned into modeling (plus tons of Lego kits in between helped my coordination as well).

Here are some tips that help me;

Historical gamers like to paint the figures white-glued on a paint stirrer or cheap wooden ruler, 5-10 at a time (for control), or individually glued on a “large” nail head (nails let you stab into Styrofoam/Clay for control).

I find both helpful, but prefer the nail method for metal GW figures, as they are heavy/large, plus if you are using a wash/dip method a lot easier; just get an old coffee can, dip the figure while holding the nail, and turn it upside-down into the coffee can and spin it back and forth between both your hands, the excess will splash on the sides of the can, thus no globs.

Secret sauce; http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html

Others use “Water-based” Minwax wood stain diluted with water.

Good luck!

I hope thats healing up well, thats alot of hardware you have in there.

And Im an old hand at dippin and usin Future. I remember 8 or 9 years ago trying to convince people woodstain really would work on figs like a wash or ink, and they kept throwing money away on the GW garbage inks.

And one thing that works easier than white glue- is a hot glue gun- but that only works if the nail head is one of the bigger ones with the waffle pattern- or you can use a screw(the X gives the glue better grip on the base) they work better for sloppy dippin since the threads provide some grip if it gets slippery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:

Breotan wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:Its a neuro issue of some sort, possibly MS.

If you think it could possibly be MS, then my advice would be to see a doctor.

Gee- thanks for that bit of brilliance, Im so glad I came here for medical advice...oh wait....I came here for hobby advice. And at least one clown it would seem

I go see SEVERAL doctors for medical advice.

I dont think Breotan had any bad intention to what he said.
I think because we arnt doctors we dont have the knowledge to fix the MS problem in order for your hobby experience to improve.

MS doesnt get 'fixed', it gets treated, it doesnt go away, it gets dealt with. Thats why Im looking at learning new skills as a coping method so I can try to keep doing some of the things I enjoy at some level.

I realize I wont be painting and converting full on GT armies in 2 or 3 weeks anymore. I'll be happy if I can get one done every 2 or 3 months. But I still want to be able to do it.

If Breotan didnt mean what he said to come across as insulting, Im sure it will work itself out.

I do not have steady hands. I am also always looking for ways to paint, get a decent result, and not have to be a good painter to do it. The new GW washes (as wella sother floor wax based washes) are excellent for adding quick (and nice) shading without having to have a steady hand.

Also, and I know this is an investment, consider alternate painting styles that you can do awith an air brush. Most GW models are standard 3 color paint by the #'s kind of affairs. Try air brushing succesive mono-chromatic colors in a (drybrushing style. If you want to go really different..start with white as the base and then go darker through the greys and to black. Just invert the colors.

Also, consier drybrushing.... Having a steady hand does not necesarily help.

ender502

I agree with Clthomps, purchase a vice as well as one of those fancy pen/pencil/paintbrush guide things and just try to take things as slowly and carefully as you can.

I know how you feel in a way, I suffer from some form of nervous problem myself (spontaneous twitches, loosing feeling/movement in parts of my body, extremely painfull cramps brought on by a sustained twitch etc) and it can really be a pain in the arse while trying to get small detail work done either in painting or sculpting.

Anyway goodluck darling, I hope you recover to some degree soon

ender502 wrote:I do not have steady hands. I am also always looking for ways to paint, get a decent result, and not have to be a good painter to do it. The new GW washes (as wella sother floor wax based washes) are excellent for adding quick (and nice) shading without having to have a steady hand.

Also, and I know this is an investment, consider alternate painting styles that you can do awith an air brush. Most GW models are standard 3 color paint by the #'s kind of affairs. Try air brushing succesive mono-chromatic colors in a (drybrushing style. If you want to go really different..start with white as the base and then go darker through the greys and to black. Just invert the colors.

Also, consier drybrushing.... Having a steady hand does not necesarily help.

ender502

Ya, Ive been mostly a speed/mass painter mostly because Ive always been able to get away with going fast and still doing good detail. Ive been using washes from the outset, and still have a few drops of my last bottle of beloved pop-top Citadel chestnut wash and armor (ya know- the sort of stuff GW sold when they seemed to like us ) I had since learned to make many of my own washes, but now that theyve gone back to stuff very close to what they had 10 years ago I can happily use it.

And I have an airbrush, a pretty advanced setup with an indoor tank that runs totally silent without one of those annoying little chattering airbrush compressors (I hate them things). And the are many things you can do with an airbrush- but you'll probly never color in a marines purity seal or eldar spirit stone with an airbrush in a practical manner I use mine for large areas of base coating on tanks and such, and theyre great for putting one the first layer of color on squads. Oh, and for clear coating theyre a godsend- no more risk rattle can sealers going foggy and ruining paint jobs. The second part of the problem is the random dropping of stuff applies to the airbrush too- and whiel its not gonna take off a toe- its potentially messy

And drybrushing is something I use as a middle step, for some sculpts you can get away with it as a finishing step- but most require some cleaner highlighting and touchups where the drybrushing went onto areas it wasnt supposed to(which happen more often for me now- and the tidying up is alot harder to do).

Maybe if I could figure out an easier way to 'mask' off areas I didnt want the excess paint to get onto, it could help with hte drybrushing and airbrushing. The existing frisket & masking tape type stuff are pretty tedious....

I don't really know the condition, but I'll try to give some random advice.

I used to have a bad twitch in my left hand the ruined quite a few paintjobs. I found by engaging in some muscle confusion I could often steady my hand long enough to do tedious work.

Try using other muscle groups, like chewing gum while you paint, tapping your feet to music, or some other way to be in motion while doing activities. It helped me, but I don't know if it will work for you.

Perhaps move to a larger size model, like 54mm? Or even *gasp* on to model kits of larger proportions? (like old Airplanes and hotrod cars)

Go with a 'Nid army. This ticks all the boxes.

You're experienced at dry-brushing, need something fairly forgiving to have a go at while you get used to the shaking, and can use other methods like dipping/airbrushing.

I guess you'll still struggle with details like eyes for a while but, in starting a new project you may find a new way to paint things like this.

If this can help you keep a good morale, you can read a bit about mister Michael Perry.
A guy who sculpt model for GW. Michael lost part of his right arm in 1996, following an accident loading a reproduction cannon during a battle re-enactment. This was a very serious injury for a right-handed model sculptor and illustrator, but he learned to sculpt and paint with his left hand.

You will find a way to do what you love.

If it's any help at all, (and if you haven't done so already) my suggestion would be to get yourself a lower chair or a taller table, so you can prop your wrists against the edge of the table as you paint.

i'm recovering from sholder surgery and will second insaniak's advice. it's helped me.
wish i could add something more useful. instead I'll just tell you my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Your attitude and determination is excellent and i hope you find a way to redefine your style.

Seconding Insaniaks advice i tend to press my paintbrush hand against my model holder (usually a cork with blu-tac on top) and clamp both with my free hand to do fine work as this reduces movement.

I'd personally go for 'nids due to the organic feel, and the ease of use of drybrushing (I've been into little men since the 80's and this was our main style back then). Also consider something like Tau or Nurgle marines as you can steal a leaf from John Blanche's style and use drybrushing and washing to create some amazing effects. A more gritty, dirty grimdark feel. You can then apply small patches of detail to key parts that you think you can manage (if you want to) and tie the whole thing together.

On a personal level if you know any good martial artists (Not combat sports but true old school kung fu) find out about some good, simple chi kung (Chi gung) exercises for you're hands and arms and you may find this helps stabilise or reduce shaking in them temporarily; allowing you a burst of productivity. It may not be suitable for you but also consider a good acupuncturist (I'm not a new age freak but these things have helped me in the past - they may not work for you but simply keep an open mind - although you sound way ahead of me here ).

You are blatantly a strong person and your commitment to the things you love will help you.

use stencil and tape like people that use airbrush. It will take more time but it should give you more margin for error.

The other things might be to use more diluted paint. Since you make more pass over the same place your error might average themselves over the layer of paints.

If nothing else work make a tyranid army dipping the figurine

I have already heard about people that if they tap their foot their hand twitching got less worse. Does the shaking is worse in the morning or the evening because a change to your schedule could help you. For me it is the inverse I got a back injury so I am forced to stay sit longer so I paint more.

Like Insaniak said, get something to prop your wrists on, it removes the tension of supporting them and also relaxes the muscles.

Using a vise to secure the mini, and both hands to move the brush will also help with shaking.

On Jennifer Haley's video for Miniature Mentor they go through her setup for painting. She uses some kind of jewellers contraption which has two large pads that go under her forearms as she leans forward to paint and she says she has a problem with shake and that this thing helps.

I hope you manage to find things which can assist with minimizing the shakes, but I get the feeling that the main things that will help you are likely to be time, practise and determination and you already seem to have the last one covered. Good luck.

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but I have similar, if considerable less severe, issues when it comes to fine motor control. I was born with mild cerebal palsy, and while it doesn't slow me down too much, i've found that painting models can be a real pain in the ass at times whaen I have to actually hold the model. I can either hold the model steady with my good hand and paint like a drunken rhino with my bad one, or I can fail to manipulate around the vertical axis of the model and do a decent job putting paint on the surfaces I can comfortably reach.

I know first hand how bad that situation can suck, but here's a bit of advice from my own experience:

1. Take your time. I know it can be frustrating and all, but it's a hobby, and unless you're getting paid, it doesn't have to be done by tomorrow. Don't rush it.

2. Flat brushes, and higher-capacity wash brushes are your best friend. Choose color schemes and layouts that aren't easy to screw up, or you'll be doing corrections until you get frustrated and give up. Less paint on the drybrushing, and copious passes on the washes.

3. Gesso: It's your best friend. It's completely bomb proof, and likes being brushed on thick. Further, it gives you a nice, toothy grip for drybrushing on.

4. Forget the pupils. Eyes aren't a major issue. They look amazing when done properly, but you're not likely to actually get them done properly... just wash over it and make them look more sunken. nobody' going to care to look that close, anyhow.

5. Tyranids are your friends. they build easily, and they use ball and sockets as join points. Everything slots together nicely, for the most part, and won't actually end up misaligned if you're not careful.

6. Gap filler. Learn to sculpt, even if it's as simple as filling in the gaps from the things you didn't get lined up properly... it helps immensely.

7. Friends. Get your friends involved, and you've got a willing cluster of pizza-powered peons to do your modelling bidding. sometimes a bit of help can be a good thing.

8. Paint on the sprue... those tiny gaps are a bitch to paint in, so why make it harder than it needs to be?


Just my $.02 on the matter.... Here's hoping it helps out a fellow "FETH! WHY CAN'T MY HANDS FETHING WORK PROPERLY WHEN I WANT THEM TO?!" modeller.

I have a ton of "pain days" so I put down the brush move to something else; Lego, glue models, pain-pills and whiskey (kidding).

My buddy was a great painter (on Canvas) but was terrible (by his own admission as well) at painting figures/vehicles, why, maybe because painting is regimented. So, he switched to Chaos Armies and used his creativity, not to paint the regimented colors, but camouflaged them different “landscapes”; Mars-like with shades of red/pink, undersea blues, jungles greens, and others in more untraditional environments (after all the galaxy has lots-o-planets) purples, oranges, etc. We called his armies “fruit-loops” after the cereal. Needless to say he just used his strengths and did not try to force his weaknesses.

Again, good luck, and remember Michael did not paint the Sistine Chapel all by himself, he had help (apprentices=Air-brush, dip, etc.)