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Alright before i get started, i want to say comment on the idea not the numbers. Its a thought i just had, and wanted some input.

Currently the damage table is as follows

1 - shaken
2 - stunned
3 - weapon destroyed
4 - immobilized
5 - wrecked
6 - explodes

1+ for ap 1
1+ for open topped
2- for glancing.

With this current table any penetrating roll of a 1 or 2 fails to do anything of real consequence. Not that shaken and stunned dont have their uses. But when a lascannon penetrates a rhino and rolls a 1, something just isn't right. The current damage table allows for so many highly unrealistic things.

What i propose is this, two separate damage tables for glancing and penetrating hits. Something like..

Glancing
1-2 shaken
3-4 stunned
5-6 weapon destroyed

Penetrating
1-2 immobilized
3-4 wrecked
5-6 explodes

Now this might sound a bit extreme, but just think about it. Glancing should not do a whole lot, the shot grazes the vechicle and its a bit disturbed. Penetrating however, means the shot hits square on and burrows into the vehicle. This should at least do something serious.

Just think about the scenarios.

Lascannon vs rhino. Lascannon more than likely going to do serious damage, but still allows for the glancing.

Lascannon vs Landraider - Landraiders are hard to kill, even harder if you cant roll a 4+ on the penetrating with current scale. With new scale, if you make that 1/6 chance to penetrate its going to do something. and glancing is still effective in its own ways. but this makes landraiders better imo. as a 6 is hard to roll with just 1 lascannon shot.

Lascannons ( or anything strong for that matter) vs Eldar Holofields - eldar tanks are hard to kill. and currently very overpowered when equiped with holo feild. Now is not as difficult, eldar tanks arent so over powered. And you stand a fighting chance. I once had a bloodthirster go 3 rounds with a fireprism before he wrecked it. That should never happen. This gives balance.

Now, lets not be brutal, vote on concept, not on numbers.

That seems a little overpowered though as it makes most any penetrating hit instantly lethal. As is, one in every three penetrating hits will kill a vehicle, with this system it would double to two out of every three kill. Makes vehicles much too easier to kill.

The reasoning behind it was that a las cannon could roll a one against an AV of 11 and be near ineffective, but at the same time a str 6 weapon could pen and roll a 6 to explode. Perhaps a better representation would be that for each point of strength you beat the AV of the vehicle with would add +1 to the current damage chart (or a modified one). For instance, you roll a 5 to pen an AV of 11 with the las cannon (so 13 total), you add +3 to your roll on the damage table as you beat the armor value by three. A strength 6 weapon can still pen an AV 11, but will only ever be able to get the +1 on the damage table for the penetrating hit. Thus making the higher strength of the shot better and following with your original reasoning a bit better as well.

A vehicle is not a circuit board. Some sections can be shot all day and it not do any actual harm. Let's say you hit a Land Raider (for simplicity's sake, with no passengers) precisely in the center of a side hatch, and your shot goes clean through the chassis and out of the opposite side's hatch. The shaking of the actual impact may be felt by the crew members, and they may be stunned by the concussive force of the shot, but despite the fact that the armor has been penetrated, nothing vital is being hit.

Would also imbalance things more than it would give balance: A vehicle couldn't be immobilized by a glancing hit (unless all weapons were destroyed first), squadrons would lose a vehicle on any penetrating hit, and EMP/Haywire grenades would be affected substantially, just for starters.

-1.

The problem with voting on the concept rather than the numbers is that the concept is the same as the 4th edition tables, with the numbers fixed so that it's easier for penetrating hits to destroy vehicles. But the problem with the 4th edition tables is that it was too easy to damage or destroy vehicles.

I'd say that something more interesting would be:

1- Crew, 1-3 Shaken, 4--6 Stunned
2-4 Damage, 1-3 Immobilized, 4-6 Weapon Destroyed
5+ Destroyed, 1-3 Wrecked, 4-6 Destroyed

I prefer the current table they have, your verision is too OP IMO, and they did it with one table to simplify it, which i like.

I prefer the current system in the 5th edition rules. I think they nailed it with the current table.

The problem i have with the current tables is, it makes tanks really quite hard to kill. And in the spirit of being semi-realistic, they should be easier.

The game that spurred this thought was when i playing chaos space marines was playing Necrons and it took 3 turns for his heavy destroyers to even blow off the battle cannon on my defiler. Now granted the daemonic posession helped quite a bit, but that still shouldnt happen. Where as after 2 turns of me shooting his monolith with my 3 oblits i managed to immobilize it. So the argument goes both ways. i suppose.

Axyl wrote:That seems a little overpowered though as it makes most any penetrating hit instantly lethal. As is, one in every three penetrating hits will kill a vehicle, with this system it would double to two out of every three kill. Makes vehicles much too easier to kill.

The reasoning behind it was that a las cannon could roll a one against an AV of 11 and be near ineffective, but at the same time a str 6 weapon could pen and roll a 6 to explode. Perhaps a better representation would be that for each point of strength you beat the AV of the vehicle with would add +1 to the current damage chart (or a modified one). For instance, you roll a 5 to pen an AV of 11 with the las cannon (so 13 total), you add +3 to your roll on the damage table as you beat the armor value by three. A strength 6 weapon can still pen an AV 11, but will only ever be able to get the +1 on the damage table for the penetrating hit. Thus making the higher strength of the shot better and following with your original reasoning a bit better as well.

I have to say i really like the sound of this.

This would represent things more effectively, so lascannnons cant roll a 1 and shake a rhino. Thus effectively conveying what i was trying to say.

Heavy Destroyers not being able to hurt a Defiler is more of an example of bad dice than a bad damage table.

If we go by your damage table, my trukks without 'ard case would 99% of the time be immobilized or destroyed.

So if I was unfortunate to go second in turn 1, all of my ork vehicles would die miserably 99% of the time leaving my orks without mobility for the rest of the game.

jehjr1337 wrote:If we go by your damage table, my trukks without 'ard case would 99% of the time be immobilized or destroyed.

So if I was unfortunate to go second in turn 1, all of my ork vehicles would die miserably 99% of the time leaving my orks without mobility for the rest of the game.

Sir, i think im going to question your math skills. In Dawn of War, i would be damn impressed with myself if i kill 99% of your tanks. Also it would be some really good rolls for every single one of my shots at your tanks to hit and penetrate.

And to restate what you apparently didnt read, try to vote on concept not numbers. However, i came into warhammer during 5th edition and nurglitch tells me this was already tried once. I still personally think something still needs to be done, but im not that imaganitive to come up with something really effective.

While trying to remain impartial to the direct issue as I play Orks primarily as well, jehjr1337 has a valid point - This doesn't just make Land Raiders and Monoliths and such easier to kill... such a change has a sweeping effect over all vehicles in the game.

jehjr1337's example of the Ork Trukks is rather valid. Trukks receive penetrating hits all the time, being AV10 and high priority targets to slow down the Ork advance. Count in the bonus from being an open topped vehicle, and you're now looking at a 2+ chance to go to the ramshackle chart on any penetrating hit.

Then look back at a couple of the old-school marine codices - Dark Angels, and Black Templars. Unless they say refer to "Codex: Space Marines" for their smoke launchers, they still have the version that automatically downgrades penetrating hits to glances. Invulnerable Rhino rush, anyone? Extra armor upgrade would make for ANY damage to be a "shaken" result 2/3 times for that turn by this chart.

I'm not saying that the damage chart should be left as-is for 6th edition, whenever that comes, but this whole "Glancing hit has <0.001% chance to actually blow me up but penetrating hit has >66% to do so..." idea... well... that's rather extreme in my opinion.

your new table would completely neuter my Necrons' ability to have any sort of Anti tank. New table gimped me but is workable

Lascannons ( or anything strong for that matter) vs Eldar Holofields - eldar tanks are hard to kill. and currently very overpowered when equiped with holo feild. Now is not as difficult, eldar tanks arent so over powered. And you stand a fighting chance. I once had a bloodthirster go 3 rounds with a fireprism before he wrecked it. That should never happen. This gives balance.

Holofields do not work in close combat.

Malecus wrote:While trying to remain impartial to the direct issue as I play Orks primarily as well, jehjr1337 has a valid point - This doesn't just make Land Raiders and Monoliths and such easier to kill... such a change has a sweeping effect over all vehicles in the game.

jehjr1337's example of the Ork Trukks is rather valid. Trukks receive penetrating hits all the time, being AV10 and high priority targets to slow down the Ork advance. Count in the bonus from being an open topped vehicle, and you're now looking at a 2+ chance to go to the ramshackle chart on any penetrating hit.

Then look back at a couple of the old-school marine codices - Dark Angels, and Black Templars. Unless they say refer to "Codex: Space Marines" for their smoke launchers, they still have the version that automatically downgrades penetrating hits to glances. Invulnerable Rhino rush, anyone? Extra armor upgrade would make for ANY damage to be a "shaken" result 2/3 times for that turn by this chart.

I'm not saying that the damage chart should be left as-is for 6th edition, whenever that comes, but this whole "Glancing hit has <0.001% chance to actually blow me up but penetrating hit has >66% to do so..." idea... well... that's rather extreme in my opinion.

While i think you know ork vehicles were not exactly meant to last long, you do have a point.

I also, agree that these tables are extreme, however i believe penetrating hits need some kind of extra ability to kill tanks, without decimating glancing effects. Could it be as simple as +1 on the current damage table for penetrating hits? And then specify that ap 1 does not confer another +1 in the case of penetrating hits. Otherwise melta weapons would explode on a 4+.

mrwittwer wrote:

With this current table any penetrating roll of a 1 or 2 fails to do anything of real consequence. Not that shaken and stunned dont have their uses. But when a lascannon penetrates a rhino and rolls a 1, something just isn't right. The current damage table allows for so many highly unrealistic things.

If you are looking for Realistic, I would suggest...

You should google/Youtube search a video of a Car getting shot up by a gatling gun (AV 9 vs Str 5)

Then see if you can find that same gun being fired at an apc or other Armored Tank (AV11 vs Str 5)

Then Tank shooting Tank (Av 13 vs St 8)

THEN EM-Railgun firing at... well anything (Str D ap 1)

You should notice a trend. The car shouldnt explode until about 20 seconds of fire is placed into it, and (Unless hit in the tires or specific part of the engine) would still be functional.

The APC should be almost uneffected.

The Tank shot against another tank will more then likely not destory the other tank, as a matter of fact, a majority hits would be for the most part, absorbed.

The Railgun will mostlikely destory whatever it hits (with +2 on the table and auto pen it damn well should).

The table does not add up to realism... neither does the Wargame of 40k, but thats also why its fun (and based in the future)

also...

mrwittwer wrote:
Lascannons ( or anything strong for that matter) vs Eldar Holofields - eldar tanks are hard to kill. and currently very overpowered when equiped with holo feild. Now is not as difficult, eldar tanks arent so over powered. And you stand a fighting chance. I once had a bloodthirster go 3 rounds with a fireprism before he wrecked it. That should never happen. This gives balance.

Actually, A bloodthister missing something with a piece of wargear titled "Holo-Fields" makes perfect sense... Since hes effectively swinging at 2 Fireprism, the Holofield rule is showing how the bloodthirster is wasting most of his strength on the "Holographic" tank.

mrwittwer wrote:
What i propose is this, two separate damage tables for glancing and penetrating hits. Something like..

Glancing
1-2 shaken
3-4 stunned
5-6 weapon destroyed

Penetrating
1-2 immobilized
3-4 wrecked
5-6 explodes

Now this might sound a bit extreme, but just think about it. Glancing should not do a whole lot, the shot grazes the vechicle and its a bit disturbed. Penetrating however, means the shot hits square on and burrows into the vehicle. This should at least do something serious.

To me it seems you have a unique outlook on how Shooting at Vehicles(and in general) works.

Lets say you have a trilas pred shooting at a rhino.

Each of his three(4 techinically) guns fires. So 3 dice are rolled, one "twin-Linked" meaning, firing at the same time from the same fixture to ensure the weapon hits. so, you get a 4 and a 3 on the normal LCs and a 2-reroll-6 on the TL-LC. So the tank has hit its target with all three shots, there for the "Accuracy" check has passed.

You now roll to see if your weapon penetrates the vehicles armor, or, the Velocity-vs-vehicle armor check (on models with Toughness, this is the reverse of an Armor save)

So lets say you get a 1, a 3 and a 6. One of your shots didnt even glance the armor, this could be one of many scenarios. While the shot was accurate, it may have hit a particularly solid part of the rhinos front armor, maybe the lascannon was fired would being fully charged, whatever the reason, that particular shot was not strong enough to effect the vehicle. The 3 and the 6 however are both Penetrating hits... and while it does suck that both a result of 3 and a result of 6 are the same amount of damage in the current rules, think of the flipside of Armor saves, rolling a 3 or a 6 on a 3+ save gives you the same result, no wound, and with most weapons, on a 2+ to wound, a 2 causes the same wound as a 6. If you had glanced however, this is where it is unique for Vehicles vs Infantry. Glancing is like you said, the shot was strong enough to effect the vehicle, but not necessarily enough to destroy any critical systems.

You then roll on the table, to me, this is saying what the shot actually DOES. For some descriptive examples example

Shaken - Penetrating: The shot was strong eoungh to hit and pierce the armor of the vehicle, however the point of entry and exit of the shot were not in any sort of danger to the crew or even to the vehicles systems itself. The gunners of the vehicle however, were startled by the Impact of the shot and must reposition themselves to be able to be "Fire-Ready" again. Glancing: Same as above.

Stunned- Penetrating: The shot does pierce the armor, possible even hitting the hood or cutting through the cabin of the vehicle, but either by luck or skill, the crew was able to avoid damage, as well as maintain the vehicle to full working order. However the both the drivers and the weapons teams must take time to resituate themselves from the near lethal blow. Glancing: Similar to above however the crew did not necessarily have to dodge any sort of fire as the shot failed to penetrate the vehicles outer armor. The shake from the blow however was strong enough not only to knock the weapons crew temporarily out of commission but also incapacite the drivers for a short time.

Weapon Destroyed: Penetrating: The shot either directally hit the weapon, tearing it off of the vehicle, or penetrated a portion of the vehicles armor to hit a critical component to the weapons function. The crew of the vehicle however, were uneffected, as the shot only effected the weapon it hit.(The Gun crew might be killed depending on the weapon) Glancing: While not strong eoung to necessarily penetrate the Vehicles armor, the force of the shot was still able to either knock a weapon off the vehicle completely, or at least shake up the components of the vehicle enough to disable the weapons system (either by a broken circut, Jammed beyond repair ammo feed, heat damage or even killing the specific gun crew from the trauma) If caused by second Immobilised roll... multiple blows to the same spot (where the vehicles drive systems were) shut down individual weapon systems, almost literally "piece by piece".

Immobilised: Penetrating: The shot penetrated in such a way as to permanently disable the vehicles movement capabilities. From completely destroying the engine to possibly just disconnecting the Drive systems to their respective controls, the shot proved strong enough to cripple the vehicle. Glancing: While the vehicle may have proved resilient enough to prevent the shot from piercing its hull, the shot still proved remarkably powerful and as such either killed the driving crew from the force of impact, knocked a critical compenent loose/out of comission, or even tore up the treads of the vehicle itself. While the remainder of the crew was unharmed, the vehicle still will no longer move. If caused by Multiple Weapon Destroyed rolls... The repeated hits to the weapons system of the vehicle eventually caused the movement controls to also cease funtioning,

Repair Rolls: The Immobilisation was most likely cause by the drive systems shutting down. As the Rhino (and some other vehicles) have very resilient internal compenents as well as higly skilled crews, the vehicle is able to regain its ability to move.

Wrecked: Penetrating: The shot was potent enough to penetrate the armor, and did so at a point critical to the vehicles function, the vehicle loses stability, falls apart and most importantly ceases to function. Glancing: AP1- The weapons design being suited for piercing all but the strongest of materials, may not have had the sheer velocity to pierce the vehicles hull, but causes a strong enough indent into the hull to take out a crucial component, rendering the vehicle useless, as well case the vehicle to cave in or become dangerous to is passengers. Open Topped- While not strong enough to pierce the armor the shot still finds an entry point from an exposed portion of the hull (most likely, the "top") and manages to cause enough damage to 'wreck' the vehicles key components. If caused by Multiple Weapon Destroyed + Immobilised... the multiple hits to the vehicles has ruined its structural integrity and it begins to fall apart.

Explodes!: The Penetrating hit was strong enough to not only hit a critical component(such as the engine or promethuim stores etc), but also with such force to cause the vehicle to explode. (The D6 Inches you roll is the amount of "Force" so 6 inches means you "Hit that like the fist of an angry god") Glancing*: AP1 Open topped- While not stroung enough to penetrate the hull from normal acess points, the exposed opening along with the highly armor piercing round hit the vehicle with such tremedous force that they cause the vehicle to explode....

***AP1 gets +1 on the table because... Weapons with AP1 are meant to pierce the armor of any infantry they come in contact with, many were also suited specifically for vehicle armor as well, while the strengh of the shots fired from weapons of this nature may not always pentrate an enemy hull, they are designed is such a manner that any type of damage they cause to a vehicle would be more effective then that of a normal shot. (For instance, Melta shots are AP1 due to the INTENSE heat they emit)

**AP- Weapons get -1 on the table because.... Weapons with ap- are not designed to pierce armor, as such, shots with this characteristic do less damage to a vehicle, even if they penetrate the armor...

*Open Topped Vehicles get +1 on the table because... the open top means that shots fired at the vehicle will be more effective, be they glancing or penetrating hit.


Now as for the *s, they are the only personal changes I think COULD be implimented (to make the system more logical)

* Open topped rules: I don't think they should give +1 on the table, it doesnt make much, if any, sense to have a bolter wreck a Raider with its first shot only because the "Top was open". I would love to here the explination of how a spacemarine(normal attack) is able to wreck a Basilisk with a single punch due to the fact that it is open topped... also if you see in the "explodes" section, the Glancing explosion due to AP1 and Open Topped basically would be as follows. You fire a melta shot at a raider, it bounces off the front hull, pops into the air, lands on the inside, and happens to land next to something that would cause the raider to explode.... (yeah... right...)

My proposed change to Open Topped is simple.

instead of +1 on the Table

+2 on the AP roll. (Meaning Str 3 can pen AV10) for shooting attacks. Normal Melee attacks get nothing special however Grenades and Melta-bombs (and equivalent abilities) auto pen, if required to roll to hit, they only gain this ability on a roll of 6.

**AP- To me, it makes no sense that a weapon that is not intended to pierce armor, could penetrate the hull of an armored vehicle. As such, ap - weapons (including Melee attacks) should only be able to Glance.

***AP1 weapons. Fine for shooting, however Power weapons (and other attacks that ignore armor saves of anykind) are also designed to pierce any sort of armor and as such should also get the benefit of AP1 weapons.

Sure this still means that even if you pen a CSMrhino with a meltagun roll of 20 (6+6+8) you may do 0 damage to it (especially if its possessed), but it would requre being as lucky as not wounding a guardsman with a Railgun (which given the rules on wounding, a roll of 1 still fails). At least with Vehicles, for the most part you are always doing something... (Deadly AP1 weapons auto destroy a weapon and kill the vehicle on a 3+)

I've played every edition and, personally, I prefer the tables in this edition. Might not be perfect in every situation but it works for me.

Why not make it for every two or three you penetrate over the Armour value you add one to the result i think this would work rather well

With this I would say the vehicle then gets an 'armour' save, for the penetrating. However I think that if it penetrates then it should destroy a weapon.

The only change I would like to see on the new, 5th Edition, system is that shots that fall off the table have no effect. As it is, if you make it through the armor, you know you won't be shooting in the following turn, which makes all but the transports not very useful. With the abundance of S7-9 Assault weapons and S6+ close combat attacks, it's not that hard to make it to the AV value of the vehicle. With all other types of units, hitting and wounding has no other effects if the unit's armor saves them. So why would my S8 AP3 Krak Missile or S6 AP4 Krak Grenade round that hits, wounds, but fails to penetrate Terminator armor have no effect on the occupant if it does to my tank crew? In the crew's defense, they are in a much heavy vehicle than the Terminator, wouldn't they be less likely to be effected than a guy who only has his relatively light weight armor between him and the powerful armor piercing round?

Remember that there's no way to kill or reduce a tank's crew, whereas you can kill and reduce the number of models in a normal unit.

A better idea, I think, would be to give vehicles a crew number, representing the number of Crew Effect results that a vehicle can take before the crew is too wounded or dead to go on. This idea is already in use with the Damage results, where the number of weapons plus the vehicle's mobility determines how much damage it takes to Wreck a vehicle.

Hi all.
Why not just deduct the AR value from the strenght of hit to determine the amount of damage?

(IF you want a simple simulation of real world armour and weapon interaction that is. )

EG
Result of Str -AR=
less than 0 no effect.
0 to 1 ,shaken(roll of 5+ goes to stunned result.)
2 to 3 loose 1 point of armament .(stunned)
3 to 4 loose 1 point of mobility.(stunned)
5 + destroyed, wrecked.(roll of 5+ vehicle explodes.)

If all vehicles (and MCs) are given armament values,(based on number of guns,) and mobility values ,( how many hits to immobilise .)
(And armament hits transfer to mobility hits when the vehicle runs out of armament .)

Just a simple idea for concideration.

Perhaps a better representation would be that for each point of strength you beat the AV of the vehicle with would add +1 to the current damage chart (or a modified one). For instance, you roll a 5 to pen an AV of 11 with the las cannon (so 13 total), you add +3 to your roll on the damage table as you beat the armor value by three

.

I like this idea much better to expand upon it here's how I'd work it. You get +1 to the damage table for each point you beat the AV by (so a Glancing get +0). Then you get a +1 for AP1. The table would look like this:

1-2 Crew Shaken
3-4 Crew Stunned
5 Weapon Destroyed
6 Immobilised
7 Wrecked
8 Explodes!

This would make light vehicles easier to destroy but heavy ones would be tougher. You'd them have a perceivable benefit for hitting things with a higher strength. MCs would potentially become absolutely lethal to heavy tanks!

Actually, wouldn't it just make light anti-armor weapons far less effective? I like the idea, but in execution it would hurt more than it would help. S[AV-5] weapons would be extremely nerfed and tanks with high AV much more durable.

FlingitNow wrote:

Perhaps a better representation would be that for each point of strength you beat the AV of the vehicle with would add +1 to the current damage chart (or a modified one). For instance, you roll a 5 to pen an AV of 11 with the las cannon (so 13 total), you add +3 to your roll on the damage table as you beat the armor value by three

.

I like this idea much better to expand upon it here's how I'd work it. You get +1 to the damage table for each point you beat the AV by (so a Glancing get +0). Then you get a +1 for AP1. The table would look like this:

1-2 Crew Shaken
3-4 Crew Stunned
5 Weapon Destroyed
6 Immobilised
7 Wrecked
8 Explodes!

This would make light vehicles easier to destroy but heavy ones would be tougher. You'd them have a perceivable benefit for hitting things with a higher strength. MCs would potentially become absolutely lethal to heavy tanks!

However, monoliths and landraiders, and even leman russ's would be near unstoppable. A lascannon would need to roll a 6 to be able to kill av14. 9 + 6 = 15 so with +1 a 6 would need to be rolled to wreck a landraider. Thats pretty tough to roll double 6's.

Perhaps keep the damage table as is. And for every 2 points over armor value +1 on the table? so lascannon rolls a 6 to penetrate on AV11. 9 + 6 = 15 so 4 over, +2. Makes rhinos much easier to kill, but that was the point in general. This also doesnt make high AV so unstopabble. As meltas would still be able to do work on AV14 with some good rolls.

Overall a bit more complicated and even i believe the current tables are pretty spot on after thinking about this more.

However, monoliths and landraiders, and even leman russ's would be near unstoppable. A lascannon would need to roll a 6 to be able to kill av14. 9 + 6 = 15 so with +1 a 6 would need to be rolled to wreck a landraider. Thats pretty tough to roll double 6's.

Perhaps keep the damage table as is. And for every 2 points over armor value +1 on the table? so lascannon rolls a 6 to penetrate on AV11. 9 + 6 = 15 so 4 over, +2. Makes rhinos much easier to kill, but that was the point in general. This also doesnt make high AV so unstopabble. As meltas would still be able to do work on AV14 with some good rolls.

Overall a bit more complicated and even i believe the current tables are pretty spot on after thinking about this more.

Meltas and MCs would wreck LRs with more ease. Firing a Lascannon at an LR is a desperation move as is. They'd have to take away the Monolith no 2d6 rule otherwise yes that would become unstoppable. Otherwise LRs would be actually a fair bit weaker against Melta and MC than they currently are.

But yeah the current tables do work fine

FlingitNow wrote:....Firing a Lascannon at an LR is a desperation move as is...

How so? You just need to hit and roll a 6 to full pen, then its back to the same as hitting a Rhino, Scout Sentinel, or Vyper. Hardly seems very desperate, just more difficult. In all honesty, as much as I hating going up against Land Raiders, with AV14 all around, they should be rather tough. If anything, I think Meltas and MCs need to be toned down. One fifteen to twenty point model that gets close to a 250+pt vehicle should not be able to destroy it so easily.

NO OKAY? NO.

WE DON'T NEED TO UPDATE IT.

IT'S FINE AS IT IS :<

(don't like learning new tables.)

The current table works but I think I liked the table from 4th ed a bit better. Having a glance table and a pen table.

I think my main complaint is that you cant kill anything by glancing it anymore. Which I dont think you should be able to one shot a lemen russ with a single glance but I dont think you should have to glance it ten times and "Maybe" destroy it.

I do really like that they added the close combat rule for attacking tanks in that you always attack rear armor.

I'd be fine with an updated table, maybe one that includes "0" and "7+" results to accommodate all the various modifiers out there. Something like this:

0 - Crew Startled - shoots one less gun than normal
1 - Crew Shaken - can't shoot
2 - Crew Stunned - can't move or shoot
3 - Weapon System Damage - roll off, d6 (tie to attacker) high roll selects weapon that it destroyed
4 - Drive System Damage - roll off, d6 (tie to attacker). If defender wins, vehicle 1/2 speed. Attacker wins, immobilized.
5 - Severe Damage: roll off (tie to attacker). Attacker wins, vehicle wrecked. Passengers may disembark without damage. Defender wins, count as a "Weapon System Damage' and "Drive System Damage" result.
6 - Vehicle Destroyed: Wreck. Passengers take hits.
7+ Vehicle Destroyed: d6" radius explosion. Passengers and those caught in blast take hits.

There, more options and effects, not the same old thing every time. Accounts for all the anti-tank and open-topped modifiers out there. One table and doesn't require vast reworking of the armor penetration rules.

Skarboy wrote:0 - Crew Startled - shoots one less gun than normal

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

On Topic: I think the current table is just fine, it doesn't need to go back to multiple tables.

@Scarboy: The only change I would make is if that the "1/2" speed Result should be changed to a "-50% of max speed" result, so that 2 such results is an immobilisation.