2D6 doesn't work because of the funky Bell Curve. You'd be better off swapping to a D10

Skarboy wrote:I'd be fine with an updated table, maybe one that includes "0" and "7+" results to accommodate all the various modifiers out there. Something like this:

0 - Crew Startled - shoots one less gun than normal
1 - Crew Shaken - can't shoot
2 - Crew Stunned - can't move or shoot
3 - Weapon System Damage - roll off, d6 (tie to attacker) high roll selects weapon that it destroyed
4 - Drive System Damage - roll off, d6 (tie to attacker). If defender wins, vehicle 1/2 speed. Attacker wins, immobilized.
5 - Severe Damage: roll off (tie to attacker). Attacker wins, vehicle wrecked. Passengers may disembark without damage. Defender wins, count as a "Weapon System Damage' and "Drive System Damage" result.
6 - Vehicle Destroyed: Wreck. Passengers take hits.
7+ Vehicle Destroyed: d6" radius explosion. Passengers and those caught in blast take hits.

There, more options and effects, not the same old thing every time. Accounts for all the anti-tank and open-topped modifiers out there. One table and doesn't require vast reworking of the armor penetration rules.

Lanrak wrote:Hi FlingitNow.
I did NOT intended that the current special rules for vehicles to prevent inapropriate damage from the current method to still be used.
A vehicle with high AV is hard enough to destroy under this system ,they dont need special rules to protect them*!


IF these Av 14 vehicles are hit with a weapons that roll 2D6 or D6x2 for penetration ,or even a lucky shot rending hit(str +(D6roll of) 6+D3+1) they are in trouble!

I did NOT intended that the current special rules for vehicles to prevent inapropriate damage from the current method to still be used.
A vehicle with high AV is hard enough to destroy under this system ,they dont need special rules to protect them!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:

With this current table any penetrating roll of a 1 or 2 fails to do anything of real consequence. Not that shaken and stunned dont have their uses. But when a lascannon penetrates a rhino and rolls a 1, something just isn't right. The current damage table allows for so many highly unrealistic things.

If you are looking for Realistic, I would suggest...

You should google/Youtube search a video of a Car getting shot up by a gatling gun (AV 9 vs Str 5)

Then see if you can find that same gun being fired at an apc or other Armored Tank (AV11 vs Str 5)

Then Tank shooting Tank (Av 13 vs St 8)

THEN EM-Railgun firing at... well anything (Str D ap 1)

You should notice a trend. The car shouldnt explode until about 20 seconds of fire is placed into it, and (Unless hit in the tires or specific part of the engine) would still be functional.

The APC should be almost uneffected.

The Tank shot against another tank will more then likely not destory the other tank, as a matter of fact, a majority hits would be for the most part, absorbed.

The Railgun will mostlikely destory whatever it hits (with +2 on the table and auto pen it damn well should).

The table does not add up to realism... neither does the Wargame of 40k, but thats also why its fun (and based in the future)

also...

mrwittwer wrote:
Lascannons ( or anything strong for that matter) vs Eldar Holofields - eldar tanks are hard to kill. and currently very overpowered when equiped with holo feild. Now is not as difficult, eldar tanks arent so over powered. And you stand a fighting chance. I once had a bloodthirster go 3 rounds with a fireprism before he wrecked it. That should never happen. This gives balance.

Actually, A bloodthister missing something with a piece of wargear titled "Holo-Fields" makes perfect sense... Since hes effectively swinging at 2 Fireprism, the Holofield rule is showing how the bloodthirster is wasting most of his strength on the "Holographic" tank.

mrwittwer wrote:
What i propose is this, two separate damage tables for glancing and penetrating hits. Something like..

Glancing
1-2 shaken
3-4 stunned
5-6 weapon destroyed

Penetrating
1-2 immobilized
3-4 wrecked
5-6 explodes

Now this might sound a bit extreme, but just think about it. Glancing should not do a whole lot, the shot grazes the vechicle and its a bit disturbed. Penetrating however, means the shot hits square on and burrows into the vehicle. This should at least do something serious.

To me it seems you have a unique outlook on how Shooting at Vehicles(and in general) works.

Lets say you have a trilas pred shooting at a rhino.

Each of his three(4 techinically) guns fires. So 3 dice are rolled, one "twin-Linked" meaning, firing at the same time from the same fixture to ensure the weapon hits. so, you get a 4 and a 3 on the normal LCs and a 2-reroll-6 on the TL-LC. So the tank has hit its target with all three shots, there for the "Accuracy" check has passed.

You now roll to see if your weapon penetrates the vehicles armor, or, the Velocity-vs-vehicle armor check (on models with Toughness, this is the reverse of an Armor save)

So lets say you get a 1, a 3 and a 6. One of your shots didnt even glance the armor, this could be one of many scenarios. While the shot was accurate, it may have hit a particularly solid part of the rhinos front armor, maybe the lascannon was fired would being fully charged, whatever the reason, that particular shot was not strong enough to effect the vehicle. The 3 and the 6 however are both Penetrating hits... and while it does suck that both a result of 3 and a result of 6 are the same amount of damage in the current rules, think of the flipside of Armor saves, rolling a 3 or a 6 on a 3+ save gives you the same result, no wound, and with most weapons, on a 2+ to wound, a 2 causes the same wound as a 6. If you had glanced however, this is where it is unique for Vehicles vs Infantry. Glancing is like you said, the shot was strong enough to effect the vehicle, but not necessarily enough to destroy any critical systems.

You then roll on the table, to me, this is saying what the shot actually DOES. For some descriptive examples example

Shaken - Penetrating: The shot was strong eoungh to hit and pierce the armor of the vehicle, however the point of entry and exit of the shot were not in any sort of danger to the crew or even to the vehicles systems itself. The gunners of the vehicle however, were startled by the Impact of the shot and must reposition themselves to be able to be "Fire-Ready" again. Glancing: Same as above.

Stunned- Penetrating: The shot does pierce the armor, possible even hitting the hood or cutting through the cabin of the vehicle, but either by luck or skill, the crew was able to avoid damage, as well as maintain the vehicle to full working order. However the both the drivers and the weapons teams must take time to resituate themselves from the near lethal blow. Glancing: Similar to above however the crew did not necessarily have to dodge any sort of fire as the shot failed to penetrate the vehicles outer armor. The shake from the blow however was strong enough not only to knock the weapons crew temporarily out of commission but also incapacite the drivers for a short time.

Weapon Destroyed: Penetrating: The shot either directally hit the weapon, tearing it off of the vehicle, or penetrated a portion of the vehicles armor to hit a critical component to the weapons function. The crew of the vehicle however, were uneffected, as the shot only effected the weapon it hit.(The Gun crew might be killed depending on the weapon) Glancing: While not strong eoung to necessarily penetrate the Vehicles armor, the force of the shot was still able to either knock a weapon off the vehicle completely, or at least shake up the components of the vehicle enough to disable the weapons system (either by a broken circut, Jammed beyond repair ammo feed, heat damage or even killing the specific gun crew from the trauma) If caused by second Immobilised roll... multiple blows to the same spot (where the vehicles drive systems were) shut down individual weapon systems, almost literally "piece by piece".

Immobilised: Penetrating: The shot penetrated in such a way as to permanently disable the vehicles movement capabilities. From completely destroying the engine to possibly just disconnecting the Drive systems to their respective controls, the shot proved strong enough to cripple the vehicle. Glancing: While the vehicle may have proved resilient enough to prevent the shot from piercing its hull, the shot still proved remarkably powerful and as such either killed the driving crew from the force of impact, knocked a critical compenent loose/out of comission, or even tore up the treads of the vehicle itself. While the remainder of the crew was unharmed, the vehicle still will no longer move. If caused by Multiple Weapon Destroyed rolls... The repeated hits to the weapons system of the vehicle eventually caused the movement controls to also cease funtioning,

Repair Rolls: The Immobilisation was most likely cause by the drive systems shutting down. As the Rhino (and some other vehicles) have very resilient internal compenents as well as higly skilled crews, the vehicle is able to regain its ability to move.

Wrecked: Penetrating: The shot was potent enough to penetrate the armor, and did so at a point critical to the vehicles function, the vehicle loses stability, falls apart and most importantly ceases to function. Glancing: AP1- The weapons design being suited for piercing all but the strongest of materials, may not have had the sheer velocity to pierce the vehicles hull, but causes a strong enough indent into the hull to take out a crucial component, rendering the vehicle useless, as well case the vehicle to cave in or become dangerous to is passengers. Open Topped- While not strong enough to pierce the armor the shot still finds an entry point from an exposed portion of the hull (most likely, the "top") and manages to cause enough damage to 'wreck' the vehicles key components. If caused by Multiple Weapon Destroyed + Immobilised... the multiple hits to the vehicles has ruined its structural integrity and it begins to fall apart.

Explodes!: The Penetrating hit was strong enough to not only hit a critical component(such as the engine or promethuim stores etc), but also with such force to cause the vehicle to explode. (The D6 Inches you roll is the amount of "Force" so 6 inches means you "Hit that like the fist of an angry god") Glancing*: AP1 Open topped- While not stroung enough to penetrate the hull from normal acess points, the exposed opening along with the highly armor piercing round hit the vehicle with such tremedous force that they cause the vehicle to explode....

***AP1 gets +1 on the table because... Weapons with AP1 are meant to pierce the armor of any infantry they come in contact with, many were also suited specifically for vehicle armor as well, while the strengh of the shots fired from weapons of this nature may not always pentrate an enemy hull, they are designed is such a manner that any type of damage they cause to a vehicle would be more effective then that of a normal shot. (For instance, Melta shots are AP1 due to the INTENSE heat they emit)

**AP- Weapons get -1 on the table because.... Weapons with ap- are not designed to pierce armor, as such, shots with this characteristic do less damage to a vehicle, even if they penetrate the armor...

*Open Topped Vehicles get +1 on the table because... the open top means that shots fired at the vehicle will be more effective, be they glancing or penetrating hit.


Now as for the *s, they are the only personal changes I think COULD be implimented (to make the system more logical)

* Open topped rules: I don't think they should give +1 on the table, it doesnt make much, if any, sense to have a bolter wreck a Raider with its first shot only because the "Top was open". I would love to here the explination of how a spacemarine(normal attack) is able to wreck a Basilisk with a single punch due to the fact that it is open topped... also if you see in the "explodes" section, the Glancing explosion due to AP1 and Open Topped basically would be as follows. You fire a melta shot at a raider, it bounces off the front hull, pops into the air, lands on the inside, and happens to land next to something that would cause the raider to explode.... (yeah... right...)

My proposed change to Open Topped is simple.

instead of +1 on the Table

+2 on the AP roll. (Meaning Str 3 can pen AV10) for shooting attacks. Normal Melee attacks get nothing special however Grenades and Melta-bombs (and equivalent abilities) auto pen, if required to roll to hit, they only gain this ability on a roll of 6.

**AP- To me, it makes no sense that a weapon that is not intended to pierce armor, could penetrate the hull of an armored vehicle. As such, ap - weapons (including Melee attacks) should only be able to Glance.

***AP1 weapons. Fine for shooting, however Power weapons (and other attacks that ignore armor saves of anykind) are also designed to pierce any sort of armor and as such should also get the benefit of AP1 weapons.

Sure this still means that even if you pen a CSMrhino with a meltagun roll of 20 (6+6+8) you may do 0 damage to it (especially if its possessed), but it would requre being as lucky as not wounding a guardsman with a Railgun (which given the rules on wounding, a roll of 1 still fails). At least with Vehicles, for the most part you are always doing something... (Deadly AP1 weapons auto destroy a weapon and kill the vehicle on a 3+)