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I quit on Warmachine Mark I because I didn't like the direction it was going towards being more infantry skirmishes rather than steam-powered behemoths fighting.

I'm wondering how effective/fun-to-run would be an old-school Caster + Jacks list and stuff the infantry? Specifically for the Protectorate of Menoth faction?

I'm not sure who I'd try that with in the Protectorate.

If you go 'Jack heavy with them you will want to bring the infantry to both protect your support
and to support your 'jacks.

I've heard that Amon is quite viable now however I don't play PoM and had no chance so far to face him directly. From my own experience however - jack-only Mortenebra is fantastic, Darius is so-so, Kraye can make wonders in the right circumstances, jack-heavy Nemo (both flavors) is very good. The same for Butcher or Karchev. I'd say you should start playing WM again

malfred wrote:I'm not sure who I'd try that with in the Protectorate.

If you go 'Jack heavy with them you will want to bring the infantry to both protect your support
and to support your 'jacks.

I want to be extremely 'jack heavy. What would be a good support/WJ ratio for an army led by Grand Exemplar Kreoss?

Not sure what level/flavor he is, but it's the best looking PoM WC in my opinion.

Kreoss has abilities that make him more suitable for infantry, especially Exemplars.

Reznik and Amon are both full on jack casters. Amon's spells and abilities only affect his jacks. One of Reznik's spells will affect infantry, but the rest are all for him or his jacks. Either could get by with a jack only list, although the choir is always a good choice for jack lists.

Taking a look at the models (thanks to the Warstore :-) ), I quite like the look of Amon.

So hypothetically, if I took

Amon
2 Heavy 'Jacks
3 Light 'JAcks
Choir

Would I be on the right track?

Waiting for my (Not very F)LGS gets MkII in so I can at least get some idea of points.

Yes, although you may also want to consider the Vassal of Menoth solos.

Forward Kommander will give you points.

Thanks for the link, George Spiggott!

So, messing with that and what I remember from Prime & Escalation, I come up with the following list:
Type: Duel (1 caster, 35pts)
Points: 35
High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza (*6pts)
* Dervish (4pts)
* Devout (5pts)
* Devout (5pts)
* Castigator (8pts)
* Crusader (6pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Holy Zealots (Leader and 5 Grunts) (4pts)
* Holy Zealot Monolith Bearer (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

Looks good, drop the second Choir for the Covenant of Menoth though. The Choir are much more resilient in MkII as you can't snipe out the leader to nerf the unit and the Covenant prevents models in its CMD radius (10" IIRC) being knocked down.

Devouts are much less offensive in MkII I wonder if you could squeeze in another heavy instead of the second Devout.

Or perhaps you could swap the Devout for the Dervish at the very least.

I'm switching out the second Devout for a Dervish, and dropping the small choir for the Covenant of Menoth as my second draft.

Seems like a fairly cheap list, $-wise, at least compared to 40K

That's a scary list. My friend plays jack heavy reznik with choir, covenant and vassal and it's one of the hardest things to deal with. Add in Amon's mobility and synergy and things get even nastier.

Things that make Jack heavy work in mk2:

- Jacks are no longer taken out of the game when three systems are disabled. You have to destroy every last box.
- Power attacks are better. They don't have penalties. Trample has been fixed and is often worth doing.
- Casters give jack points -- yes they can just off set points spent on infantry but it at least ensures that some part of each army is spent on jacks.
- You can still use crippled weapons but just with one less die to roll.

Vengis wrote:Kreoss has abilities that make him more suitable for infantry, especially Exemplars.

Reznik and Amon are both full on jack casters. Amon's spells and abilities only affect his jacks. One of Reznik's spells will affect infantry, but the rest are all for him or his jacks. Either could get by with a jack only list, although the choir is always a good choice for jack lists.

Vengis, when you say that Kreoss synergizes well with exemplars, do you mean Knights Exemplar, Exemplar Bastions or possibly even Exemplar Vengers? My understanding is that Exemplar bastions are simply called Bastions, Exemplar Vengers are commonly called Vengers, and so I would assume you mean Knights Exemplar. May I ask in what way they sync up well with Kereoss?

Robg54 wrote:

Vengis, when you say that Kreoss synergizes well with exemplars, do you mean Knights Exemplar, Exemplar Bastions or possibly even Exemplar Vengers? My understanding is that Exemplar bastions are simply called Bastions, Exemplar Vengers are commonly called Vengers, and so I would assume you mean Knights Exemplar. May I ask in what way they sync up well with Kereoss?

The answer is yes.

eKreoss's feat makes melee attacks automatically hit and generates an additional melee attack.

All those models (Exemplar models, no less) are weapon masters. So all the weapon master
attacks automatically hit. Then they swing again as weapon masters...

That is scary as hell.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'm switching out the second Devout for a Dervish, and dropping the small choir for the Covenant of Menoth as my second draft.

My maths says that's 34 points. 3 Wracks (1 point) fill that out to 35 points nicely.

If you pick up the plastic Crusader and some magnets it also gives you lots of flexibility for future lists.

That is a nasty in your face list. Far nastier than you could field for 500 points in MkI, In MkI your list is 610 points (inc. three racks) and about half as scary.

Robg54 wrote:
Vengis, when you say that Kreoss synergizes well with exemplars, do you mean Knights Exemplar, Exemplar Bastions or possibly even Exemplar Vengers? My understanding is that Exemplar bastions are simply called Bastions, Exemplar Vengers are commonly called Vengers, and so I would assume you mean Knights Exemplar. May I ask in what way they sync up well with Kereoss?

What Malfred said, mostly. Plus, stick Gravus in there, and Kreoss can't be knocked down or made stationary while in his command range.

Additionally, eKreoss has Elite Cadre: Exemplar, and as far as I know, any model with Exemplar in the name benefits. So that means all those units in an army with eKreoss are immune to continuous effects. Against some armies that's not a big deal, but that will seriously hurt some Cryx and PoM armies.

Absolutely take two Vassals if you run a 'jack-only army list, they are a huge help. Amon is a good 'jack caster but from what I've heard he can be tricky to master. Taking two minimum units of Choir costs only one more point than one full unit and it lets you spread them farther out around the table.

I actually think that Severius is a decent 'jack caster since Eye of Menoth goes up on turn one so with a Choir every 'jack should be at +3 to attack & damage rolls. Add in Sevvy's huge 16" control area and he can arc spells quite far away (including Ashes to Ashes to help trash infantry & solos).

Welcome, Doppelbock.

I generally recommend Severius for infantry armies specifically so he can reserve his focus
for spell casting and so that his +1/+1 can apply to more models than just his battlegroup.

Severius has enough focus and spells to do it all. He can handle lots of jacks, loves arc nodes and buffs everyone. He lacks battlegroup buffs, so I don't think he's a dedicated jack caster, but he's certainly a capable jack caster like one of the Feora versions can be.

Well, if you're planning on outputting spells, though, you're spending 4-6 focus on spells
per turn (two upkeeps, and ashes or immolate with boosts). I'd rather let the infantry do
most of the rest of the wreckage as there's less focus to use for them.

The problems with Severius as a jack caster are: Eye of Menoth gives bonuses on a per model basis so has greater benefits with a larger number of models. Secondly he needs to use his focus to run the warjacks, as he has no spells that mimic focus this will leaving him little spare focus to boost his powerfield. He'll also suffer from having few models to hide behind and some rather low stats if enemies do get through his warjack screen. He also requires arc nodes, which limits his warjack options somewhat.

I think that's a fair assessment. If I wanted a jack heavy Menoth list, Sevs wouldn't be on the short list. He can do it, but he has to give up using some of his abilities to make it happen.

Anyone care to opening this thread up to non-Menoth jack casters? I'd love to hear people's thoughts on who makes the best jack casters for other factions as well.

By and large, it's pretty easy to spot jack casters, as their spell lists and feats usually target their jacks. There's a few that are little more subtle though.

Cygnar seems the have the most:
Kraye
Both Nemos
Darious

All the other casters do well with a more balanced force.

PoM I'm not as familiar with, but for sure:
Amon
Reznik

Khador really doesn't have many, but then their jacks are already good, and most people bring 2 no matter who the caster is. They have:
Karchev
eButcher

Cryx surprisingly has only one dedicated jack caster, Mortenebra. (one of my favorite casters in the game, if not my favorite) The coven I really wouldn't consider a jack caster. They do need a lot of bonejacks, but that's for their spells. Other than that, they don't have much spell-wise to support nothing but jacks. They can however, set up a helljack for an assassination run fairly easily.

I'm not familiar with Mercs, but I do know that pMagnus and Bart are both good jack casters.

For Menoth players, there has been a rumor that with the new book you'll finally get 1 point solo who can repairt 'jacks. So keep your eyes open when the book hit the selves.

ChadeFIN wrote:For Menoth players, there has been a rumor that with the new book you'll finally get 1 point solo who can repairt 'jacks. So keep your eyes open when the book hit the selves.

You mean this fellow (protectorate vassal mechanik) who has been on the PP website for some time now?

Menoth, I hate that model.

Metsuri wrote:You mean this fellow (protectorate vassal mechanik)?

Yes, exactly him. Seems that you are way ahead of me in thinks. Thanks for the info!

Vengis wrote:Cryx surprisingly has only one dedicated jack caster, Mortenebra. (one of my favorite casters in the game, if not my favorite) The coven I really wouldn't consider a jack caster. They do need a lot of bonejacks, but that's for their spells. Other than that, they don't have much spell-wise to support nothing but jacks. They can however, set up a helljack for an assassination run fairly easily

Cryx also have eSkarre and pGoreshade who have battlegroup wide abilities. Menoth have eFeora and Khador have pVlad.

eFeora can't go pure 'jack caster because of her limited focus pool, though. She really
does need a mix of models to get her ready for her feat turn.