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Star Blazer Space Marine Crusade Force 1750
HQ
Captain (100), Storm Shield (15), Thunder Hammer (30), Jump Pack (25) 170
Librarian (100) 100

Troops
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Lascannon (10), Power Fist (25) 210
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Lascannon (10), Power Fist (25) 210
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Multi-Melta (free), Power Fist (25) 200

Elite
Dreadnought (105), Heavy Flamer (10), Assault Cannon (10), Drop Pod (35),
Deathwind Missile laucher (20) 180

Fast Attack
Assault Squad x 5 (100), Plasma Pistol x 2 (30), Power Weapon (15) 145

Land Speeder Squadron x 2 (100), Tornado Multi Melta x 2 (40) 140

Land Speeder Squadron x 2 (100), Tornado Multi Melta x 2 (40) 140

Heavy Support
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Total 1750

This is my first attempt at a well balanced list for 40k, trying to find a balance between fire support and speed to compliment. The three 10 man squads will work with the needed flexibility if a scenario occurs with scoring units. These units were designed with specific weapons choices allowing three units to be short range (PF, Meltas), a single mid range (multi melta), and two long range (lascannons).

The three Preds with heavy bolters/autocannons are for infantry, and the possibility of firing on lightly armored targets if needed. The Dread with the drop pod is for first turn placement and combines an assault cannon for anti infantry as well as anti light armor, with a ccw for combat.

The librarian is for psychic protection, the captain goes with the assault squad for a fast moving combat potential. Last but not least the two squadrons of 2 land speeders with multi meltas for tank hunting, also include heavy bolters in case infantry is the only option.

Anti Infantry - Preds, Tac squads, Dreadnaught
Anti tank - Land speeders
Hybrids – Tac squads, speeders, dred, preds (light armor)

Please leave comments, this is designed to be competitive (however this is not an attempt at a power list)

Librarian with assault squad is mess. Dont do it.

Consider combimeltas for sarges for more antitank. I would swap one meltagun for a flamer and take combiflamer too. If you are going to combatsquad bear in mind that 5 marines with one fist is maybe not enough if you plan going into CC. Power weapon would MAYBE be better.

The overall list is good but i think that if you face 180 boyz you are totally doomed so take more flamers maybe..

w0chtulka wrote:Librarian with assault squad is mess. Dont do it.

Consider combimeltas for sarges for more antitank. I would swap one meltagun for a flamer and take combiflamer too. If you are going to combatsquad bear in mind that 5 marines with one fist is maybe not enough if you plan going into CC. Power weapon would MAYBE be better.

The overall list is good but i think that if you face 180 boyz you are totally doomed so take more flamers maybe..

Yeah, good stuff, ive been out of the game for a while now, so this is a list that I put together without any real experience. I agree now thinking about it with the power fists, my original thought was if they got into combat that having the fist would assure that they could have a chance to hurt anything, however it is a point sink thats for sure. Ultimately I feel my final list will come down to the meta game of my community, flamers are something im also seriously considering, ill probably mess around and figure out the best mix of anti horde vs tank in the tac squads.

For the sake of clarification, the librarian is not in the assault squad, the captain is, im not sure where im necessarily going with the assault squad, but looking at my list I think I needed some CC troops of anykind. This unit is not extremely powerful, but I think with its speed they can get where they need to go.

I know what your saying about the huge horde armies, thats why all my preds are destructors, and a few of my options like the speeders also have some anti infantry capabilities as well. Only with experience, this army will be proxyed for sure.

Looks like a solid list, boring, though. But then some argue that boring and competitive are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

My only recommendations concern your assault squad. Your captain is deadly, no doubt about it, but I think that a chaplain instead could really enhance the whole unit. 5 man Assault squads aren't the greatest, especially agasint some of the more CC oriented armies.

Also, a chaplain with a jump pack is 115 points, giving you 55 points to work with.

Also, I think you may have misread your codex, or I may have misread your post, but, you can;t take 2 plasma pistols in a 5 man squad. So that's a running total of 70 points.

Now let me finally recommend downgrading your plasma pistol to a flamer. Personally, I don;t want that even slight chance of losing a guy in a 5 man unit to Gets Hot! You'll lose one attack, but gain the ability to hit many more models in your shooting phase, and you won;t have to worry about losing anyone to friendly fire.

That also brings our total up to 75 points. There's a few things you could do with them. I personally hate to see marines foot slogging, so you could buy 2 rhinos for rushing those objectives. Lose one Land Speeder, (making one squadron of 3) and there's a third Rhino. With whats left over, you can scatter 3 H-K missles throught your army, and give that third squad a lascannon, which will offset losing that one Speeder, and finally give your Assault Sergent melta-bombs, so you can effectively assault vehicles.

In summary:
Star Blazer Space Marine Crusade Force 1750
HQ
Chaplain (100) Jump Pack (15) 115
Librarian (100) 100

Troops
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Lascannon (10), Power Fist (25) 210
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Lascannon (10), Power Fist (25) 210
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Lascannon (10), Power Fist (25) 210

Dedicated Transport
Rhino (35) H-K Missile (10) 45
Rhino (35) H-K Missile (10) 45
Rhino (35) H-K Missile (10) 45

Elite
Dreadnought (105), Heavy Flamer (10), Assault Cannon (10), Drop Pod (35),
Deathwind Missile laucher (20) 180

Fast Attack
Assault Squad x 5 (100), Flamer (10), Power Weapon (15), Melta-bombs (5), 130

Land Speeder Squadron x 3 (150), Tornado Multi Melta x 3 (60) 210

Heavy Support
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Total 1750

Commander Endova wrote:Looks like a solid list, boring, though. But then some argue that boring and competitive are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

My only recommendations concern your assault squad. Your captain is deadly, no doubt about it, but I think that a chaplain instead could really enhance the whole unit. 5 man Assault squads aren't the greatest, especially agasint some of the more CC oriented armies.

Also, a chaplain with a jump pack is 115 points, giving you 55 points to work with.

Also, I think you may have misread your codex, or I may have misread your post, but, you can;t take 2 plasma pistols in a 5 man squad. So that's a running total of 70 points.

Now let me finally recommend downgrading your plasma pistol to a flamer. Personally, I don;t want that even slight chance of losing a guy in a 5 man unit to Gets Hot! You'll lose one attack, but gain the ability to hit many more models in your shooting phase, and you won;t have to worry about losing anyone to friendly fire.

That also brings our total up to 75 points. There's a few things you could do with them. I personally hate to see marines foot slogging, so you could buy 2 rhinos for rushing those objectives. Lose one Land Speeder, (making one squadron of 3) and there's a third Rhino. With whats left over, you can scatter 4 H-K missles throught your army, which will offset losing that one Speeder, and finally give your Assault Sergent melta-bombs, so you can effectively assault vehicles.

In summary:

You can take 1 plasma pistol per 5 members, and the sergeant can also take a plasma pistol, I might have this wrong, but my understanding is that means you can take 1 for the squad and 1 for the sergeant, when I wrote that I didnt specify. However, the recommendations you presented are indeed intriguing, I have to be honest I'm liking the whole ditch the extra land speeder and using flamers, while adding rhinos for transportation.

Overall, I plan on doing some heavy conversions and quality paint jobs, so I thought the captain would be easier, however im not against using the chaplain, im assuming the one you mentioned above is the typical one without upgrades?

Ahh. I see what you meant about the plasma pistols. Okay. Totally, legal, then, but not a great idea. Losing the Sergent costs you a power weapon, plus a few vital attacks. Losing all that to Gets Hot! is face-palmingly embarrassing.

The chaplain I'm talking about is your standard chaplain with a jump pack. GW makes this model.

There's nothing wrong with a librarian in of itself. I've never fielded one with an assault squad, so I can;t comment. The problem is, Rhinos are ten man vehicles, so he'd kind of be off doing his own thing, if you decide to go that route. (And you really should. Mechanized lists are all the rage these days.)

So that leaves you with a lonely Librarian. You can Infinity Gate him around the board to catch up, but that's risky. I'd prefer to look at him as 100 points you can play around with. Instead of the chaplain, you could take the librarian and the chaplain and have a Kayvaan Shrike counts as, which is beastly when attached to an Assault Squad. Do what you will with the extra 20 points. Extra armor on the Dreadnought might be nice.

100 points is also a scout squad with sniper rifles, a heavy weapon and camo cloaks, sitting in a ruin somewhere in the rear with a 3+ cover save causing havoc, a two bike Attack Bike Squad with x2 Multi-Meltas, a Land Speeder with an assault cannon and a multi-melta, a Bike squad with a meltagun, or a Techmarine with 3 servitors, and a combi-melta. All of these things would mesh well with your army.

Wow Endova, thanks for the revised list, I was just about to redo it with those specifications you mentioned .

With that said im loving it, plus it gives the army a little more crusadish attitude I was going for. As mentioned earlier by wochtulka, what is your opinion on the power fists? Im still deciding if I want to keep those.

As a side note, the main purpose I sought with the librarian was for psychic defense, however if I combat squaded 1 or 2 of my units should the situation arise I would be able to put him in one of those units, but yeah he is going to have trouble keeping up in his current form. Im still undecided, the chaplain however im starting to dig

Looking at the rules/price point for shrike I must say im probably going to go with him, the only issue I see is that the fleet special rule might not be of much use to anyone but his unit, still however seeing as how my librarian might be useless with the current set up, I see no issue with using him.

I edited my above post with more thoughts about the Librarian.

The major problem with powerfists is that there are many instances where they might not even be able to be employed. These are usually in assault phases against vastly superior CC opponents, but can be somewhat mitigated by proper wound allocation. They come into their own versus high toughness monstrous creatures, IMO. For about 80% of other occasions, I'd rather take a power weapon and a melta bomb. The power weapon being as effective as the fist vs. most infantry or beasts, and the melta-bomb more effective vs. vehicles.

In your list, switching to the power weapon/melta-bomb combo will fill up free up 15 points, which could be used with one of the libby replacement suggestions above. The important thing is todecide if you want to go with your current HQ setup, the chaplain and the libby (both of which I have to recommend against) just Shrike, or just the Chaplain.

Anyway, happy I could help.

Star Blazer Space Marine Crusade Force 1750
HQ
Shrike 195

Troops
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Lascannon (10), Power weapon (15), Combi-flamer (10), Melta bomb (5) 215
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Lascannon (10), Power weapon (15), Combi-flamer (10), Melta bomb (5) 215
Tactical Squad x 10 (170), Melta Gun (5), Lascannon (10), Power weapon (15), Combi-flamer (10), Melta bomb (5) 215

Dedicated Transport
Rhino (35) H-K Missile (10) 45
Rhino (35) H-K Missile (10) 45
Rhino (35) H-K Missile (10) 45

Elite
Dreadnought (105), Heavy Flamer (10), Assault Cannon (10), Drop Pod (35),
Deathwind Missile laucher (20) 195

Fast Attack
Assault Squad x 5 (100), Flamer (10), Power Weapon (15), Melta-bombs (5), 130

Land Speeder Squadron x 3 (150), Tornado Multi Melta x 3 (60) 210

Heavy Support
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Predator Destructor (60), Heavy Bolters (25) 85
Total 1750

This is something I revised, shrike included now, and the sergeants in the tac squads have combi-flamers/power weapons, the dred also has extra armor.

I just re edited the revised list, I went with the metla bombs on the sergeants instead of the extra armor on the dred.

That's looking excellent. Combi-flamers are a nice touch, and definitely "hybridize" those Tac squads.

The last thing I can say is that I'm not a huge fan personally of the way you field that Dreadnought. what you have there is a shooty Dreadnought, which aren't the best kind to drop behind enemy lines. A completley devious way to play it would to be to deploy the dread on your side, (swap the heavy flamer for either the autocannon or missile launcher for ultimate shootyness) and drop the empty and expendable Deathwind Drop Pod somewhere it can harass the enemy.

Another extremely popular choice is to drop an Ironclad behind enemy lines. It can take much more abuse then a standard Dread, having better armor scores and Extra Armor. It's also got more attacks than a standard Dread, if you equip it properly. The popular tactic is to employ the drop pod to drop the Ironclad very close to an enemy squad, and let it charge in on the subsequent turn, usually to great result. For the points you spent on your drop pod/dread setup, you can get a non-Deathwind pod (35), and an Ironclad (135) with a heavy flamer (10). Ironclads also have the meltagun, and the seismic hammer, which is awesome against vehicles. It's an awesome hybrid, and is beastly in assault.

The comparison between the two, for behind the lines harassing, is that if you sit there and shoot at your opponent from behind, he'll use a good amount if firepower on that shooty Dreadnought (which does have it's advantages, if there are other things you don;t want him to kill right away) whereas if you assault with the Ironclad, he won't be able to shoot at it, and you can tie up a fair amount of his forces in melee. His shooting will be dispersed pretty much normally across the rest of your army.

Just some food for thought.

Commander Endova wrote:That's looking excellent. Combi-flamers are a nice touch, and definitely "hybridize" those Tac squads.

The last thing I can say is that I'm not a huge fan personally of the way you field that Dreadnought. what you have there is a shooty Dreadnought, which aren't the best kind to drop behind enemy lines. A completley devious way to play it would to be to deploy the dread on your side, (swap the heavy flamer for either the autocannon or missile launcher for ultimate shootyness) and drop the empty and expendable Deathwind Drop Pod somewhere it can harass the enemy.

Another extremely popular choice is to drop an Ironclad behind enemy lines. It can take much more abuse then a standard Dread, having better armor scores and Extra Armor. It's also got more attacks than a standard Dread, if you equip it properly. The popular tactic is to employ the drop pod to drop the Ironclad very close to an enemy squad, and let it charge in on the subsequent turn, usually to great result. For the points you spent on your drop pod/dread setup, you can get a non-Deathwind pod (35), and an Ironclad (135) with a heavy flamer (10). Ironclads also have the meltagun, and the seismic hammer, which is awesome against vehicles. It's an awesome hybrid, and is beastly in assault.

The comparison between the two, for behind the lines harassing, is that if you sit there and shoot at your opponent from behind, he'll use a good amount if firepower on that shooty Dreadnought (which does have it's advantages, if there are other things you don;t want him to kill right away) whereas if you assault with the Ironclad, he won't be able to shoot at it, and you can tie up a fair amount of his forces in melee. His shooting will be dispersed pretty much normally across the rest of your army.

Just some food for thought.

Yeah ive contemplated my dred situation, I was thinking the assualt canon with heavy flamer mixed with the deathwind launcher would bring some great fire support to my army, while including the ccw would give him some close combat ability. This I actually want to be my centerpiece in the army and ive got so many ideas/concept art already put into him. However I plan on playing plenty of practice games so all my options are open.

Well, if you haven't done so already, don;t glue the arms on. Dreadnought arms have enough friction that they'll stay in place without glue.

Commander Endova wrote:Well, if you haven't done so already, don;t glue the arms on. Dreadnought arms have enough friction that they'll stay in place without glue.

Everything is just a theory right now, ill probably have more than 1 dred anyway, models wise

Here are some points that i feel should be raised:

1: Hunter killer missiles really aren't that great. For what they are they are prohibitively expensive and realistically, a Str 8 attack isn't all that effective against vehicles. even against AV 12 the chances of you destroying the vehicle is 2/3*1/3*1/3= 2/27. In summary, even if you fired all three of your HKs at one target, the odds are good that you would not destroy the tank. Even Penetrating it once would be difficult for your 45 points worth of one time use attachments.

2: Shrike is great. But he is best for armies that have LOTS of assault units that have good chances of winning their combats. A fleeting dreadnought, and an assault squad (an understrength one at that) simply is not the best use of a pretty expensive HQ unit.

3: When compared against a power weapon, lightning claws are better against everything with toughness 4 and higher. Since most heavily armored units also have toughness 4 or higher, these would be the ones that your assault squad would have the most trouble with. I would therefore switch the assault squad's PW for a LC to give them a better all around chance in CC

4: Having a single unit drop down into the midst of your enemy's gunline/close combat squads is NOT the way to go. If they would normally beat your Dread in CC then they will charge it, if they would not, they would simply move out of charge range and perforate your dread and drop pod with lots and lots of anti tank rounds. I would drop this unit entirely, it simply doesn't seem effective in this setup.

5: It seems that you're planning to combat squad. If so, i would highly advise that you replace your rhinos with razorbacks, it's a 5 point upgrade and you get a LOT more firepower.

Shrike78 wrote:Here are some points that i feel should be raised:

1: Hunter killer missiles really aren't that great. For what they are they are prohibitively expensive and realistically, a Str 8 attack isn't all that effective against vehicles. even against AV 12 the chances of you destroying the vehicle is 2/3*1/3*1/3= 2/27. In summary, even if you fired all three of your HKs at one target, the odds are good that you would not destroy the tank. Even Penetrating it once would be difficult for your 45 points worth of one time use attachments.

2: Shrike is great. But he is best for armies that have LOTS of assault units that have good chances of winning their combats. A fleeting dreadnought, and an assault squad (an understrength one at that) simply is not the best use of a pretty expensive HQ unit.

3: When compared against a power weapon, lightning claws are better against everything with toughness 4 and higher. Since most heavily armored units also have toughness 4 or higher, these would be the ones that your assault squad would have the most trouble with. I would therefore switch the assault squad's PW for a LC to give them a better all around chance in CC

4: Having a single unit drop down into the midst of your enemy's gunline/close combat squads is NOT the way to go. If they would normally beat your Dread in CC then they will charge it, if they would not, they would simply move out of charge range and perforate your dread and drop pod with lots and lots of anti tank rounds. I would drop this unit entirely, it simply doesn't seem effective in this setup.

5: It seems that you're planning to combat squad. If so, i would highly advise that you replace your rhinos with razorbacks, it's a 5 point upgrade and you get a LOT more firepower.

Well noted on these points, thanks for sharing, when I get some time ill make another list with some of the ideas presented here. Im already brainstorming a list with some razors and combat squading out, this would allow me to refocus my character selection, and I might be more inclined to take a librarian again if I can attach him to a razor unit.

LC is noted, I dunno im just so in love with the dreadnought, I understand this is a potentially dangerous unit choice. My theory was that if I could get close, having the assault cannon mixed with the flamer would give me some power in the shooting phase, while the ccw was an additional option should the situation arise. Like I stated earlier, I really want this dred to be the center piece of my army in terms of conversions and paint job, I know I can be forcing myself into a trap where I might want to force myself to have a dred even if it doesnt make sense. Im thinking if I can drop him into a place that isolates him with 1 or 2 opponents units he can have more potential to do better, and he could serve as a decoy if need be.

True. Lightning claws are nice. You'll lose an attack, but most would argue that you make up for it with the increased chance to hit.

Nothing wrong with Combat Squads and Razorbacks, other than the expense.