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This is a topic I've been going on about for some time and really wanted to bring it up for discussion.
The effectiveness of the bright lance as as AT weapon is truly pathetic. With the mere bs 3 of guardians the bright lance only has a one in 18 shot at wreaking a tank. Even the twin linked version only has a one in 12 shot at wreaking which essentially makes it ineffective against AV12 or higher which is what it's allegedly supposed to be good against. Your better of firing only against transports and in that case you're better of taking the EML as it's cheaper. At it's high point cost I truly feel that this weapon is unusable and I personally never run it. It bothers me to other players still use it considering what a point sink it is. I think that games workshop should reballance this weapon whenever a new codex will come out.
How here agrees with me and can think about ways to balance this weapon

I kind of disagree, actually.

A Brightlance gets a penetrating hit on a Land Raider on a 5+, exactly the same as if it were S10. The fact that it can be on a fast skimmer or be twin-linked on a fearless, toughness 8 MC just seals the deal. Brightlances aren't the best weapon in the game, but you can do a hell of a lot worse for a ranged anti-tank weapon.

S10 AP 1 Lance, all Eldar are BS5.

New dex, go go go!

Sile wrote:S10 AP 1 Lance, all tau are BS5.

New dex, go go go!

fixed

I wouldn't fire a s10 at a raider unless I'm desperate. That's what dragons are for. If you're firing a gun that only penetrates 1 out of 3 times ,when it actually hits, then in my book you're wasting your shot. But that's just me not wanting to play against the odds which is exactly what you'll get one you take this overpriced weapon.

100% agree Bright lances and dark lances are kidna crappy these days. (I play DE not Eldar so I am still allowed to chime in!)
My 2 cents:

1) They could reduce the cost. chance of happening likely
2) Increase strength, not likely
3) Make them AP1 and keep cost the same, possible and quite helpful but gut says no

4) Add a new space rule.
a) Something like reverse holofields, ideally when a bright/dark lance glances or pens roll 2 dice for the damage result pick the one you want. Realistically is after roll your daamge result and you may choose to reroll it.
b) Only subract -1 from damage roll when glancing.

How do any of these sound?

Seeing as DE can get one for 1/3rd the cost of Eldar with a BS of 4 to boot I don't really see how a DE can complain one bit.

For Eldar I only use one on a BS4 platform like the WL. Otherwise, yes it's over-priced crap. It barely makes a difference unless you're firing at a LR and half the time it's moot becuase the Guardians miss.

It all comes down to cost, and playability. Lances are fine on what they are best with. Sure a brightlance on a gaurdian or a Dark lance on a Scourge (lol) is a bit pricey but in the same hands as Meshed Warriors, for 200 points you get 4 DL shots, not a bad day at all if I do say so myself, also with TLOS you put the lance guys up front and deny the vehicle the coversave.

BLs find their home on Eldar Xports, but still arent terrible on a gaurdian squad, as effectively every member of the squad is +1 wound to the BL platform.

DE also have Blasters, which are just godly when used propely in the hands of Raider Squads or Reaver Jetbikes.

Now, will the DE get new lance weaponry in their next codex with Eldar Lance upgrades soon to follow, probably, but until then I like my cheap tank buster shots just fine (DE player) and I've suffered many a damaging hit from an eldar lancer. (Just because you don't always wreck a vehicle does not make a min- 4 to glance bad at all. )

Brightlances do not suck. Period. They are amazing.

As an ork player, I can only DREAM about having bright lances. Or melta guns. Or fusion guns. Or melta bombs. Or chainfists.

etc

etc

etc

Bright/dark lances are FINE.

Dark Lances are fine, I run a DE army with approximately 7-11 Dark lances (and 7-9 blasters) depending on the situation. Yes, I've had a game where literally they never hit and if they did, they didn't do diddly squat to the target. However, I can't count the number of LR's/Transports/Vehicles I've popped on the opening round of firing. There is nothing like seeing a LR go pop the first round and seeing your opponents termies have to risk losses due to the destruction and subsequently foot slog across the board.

Well, an eldar bright lance does have almost a 1/10 chance of getting immobilize or destroyed, which is what you want when you're trying to stop land raiders from spewing their contents into your army, almost a 15% chance when you twin-link it. This is almost 3 times the effectiveness of an IG lascannon.

Know what Orks have that has a decent chance of killing land raiders at range? Nothing. Zip. Zero. Nada. Squat. Quit yer whining.

For the number of points paid bright lances are not good at all.

80 points for 5 fire dragons with a very good chance of blowing up any vehicle.

Or 45 points to upgrade a wave serpent to a bright lance which has very little chance of blowing up any vehicle.

Sure bright lances are more effective than lascannons against AV14, but they're less effective than lascannons against any vehicle that is AV12 or less... most of the vehicles in the game.

willydstyle wrote:For the number of points paid bright lances are not good at all.

80 points for 5 fire dragons with a very good chance of blowing up any vehicle.

Or 45 points to upgrade a wave serpent to a bright lance which has very little chance of blowing up any vehicle.

80 points for 5 fire dragons, another 120 to give them a wave serpent so they can actually get near a vehicle before they die, and even then they usually only live for a turn, being T3 infantry with 4+ armor. The bright lance can also start killing vehicles turn 1, fire dragons take several turns to get into position, especially if they're walking. If they're walking then that land raider will discharge its payload before the dragons even get near it.

The bright lance probably is a little costly, but it's all Eldar really have to work with for long range anti-tank. It's that or EMLs which don't have that nice lance rule or as good AP.

For anti-tank you don't need AP. Sure EMLs don't have lance, but they also have 12" better range and a plasma missile option.

Also, when you purchase fire dragons, it's not like a wave serpent is a worthless thing to have on the field, even after the fire dragons get out and die.

What does the lance rule improve your chances of destroying over a lascannon, that imperial armies have wider and cheaper access to?

Land Raiders
Battlewagons (but only if shooting at the front)
Leman Russ variants (but only if shooting at the front)

Then there is the long, long list of vehicles that lance does nothing to improve your chances against.

Bright Lances are not bad, but theyre not good either. I think perfectly mediocre.

willydstyle wrote:What does the lance rule improve your chances of destroying over a lascannon, that imperial armies have wider and cheaper access to?

Land Raiders
Battlewagons (but only if shooting at the front)
Leman Russ variants (but only if shooting at the front)

Then there is the long, long list of vehicles that lance does nothing to improve your chances against.

Why should it improve your chances?

Against AV12 and below it's just as good as a Missile Launcher. Against higher than that it's significantly better. And the Brightlance doesn't only come on Tanks and Guardians, remember. It also can be put on one of the toughest MCs in the game, that also happens to be BS4.

If you want Strength 9+ take some Fire Prisms. Let's not act like these weapons don't exist in your Codex. The point in the OP was that "Brightlances Suck" which they most certainly do not.

willydstyle wrote:
Also, when you purchase fire dragons, it's not like a wave serpent is a worthless thing to have on the field, even after the fire dragons get out and die.

I'll take 36inch chance to kill a LR over 6 inch chance to kill a LR anyday...

Don't forget, when you kill that LR you have to kill the guys inside, the guardians actually have a better chance at this then the firewarriors that (if they don't get killed in the SM players Shooting phase) will get the crap beat out of them.

Sure, point for point a Lance might not be better then a Lascannnon, but don't forget, Lascannon = Imperium, so it has already been established that it is overpowered.

Take a moment to think what else from the following races has a similar Anti Tank weapon that can be held by troops with the same range and rough point cost as a Bright or Dark lance.

Tau
Necron
Chaos Daemons
Orks
Tyranids

Now take that same list and find their anti tank weaponry

Tau have two Anti Tank guns... Railgun and Railgun

Necrons... HAH!

Chaos Daemons... Less then 24 inch range

Orks... HAH!

Nids Less then 24 inch range (as I remember)

The bright and dark lances are fine weapons... (And while Dark Lances are better then Bright Lances in terms of cost, etc, DE don't have Prism Cannons, Str9+, or AV12...)

Trust me, I use a few bright lances in my Eldar army specifically because of the chance to shut down a land raider across the table.

It doesn't mean that they do their job consistently enough to be worth the points and opportunity cost (EMLs are cheaper and better against a wider variety of targets), but it does mean that I recognize that you have to have them in a list to be a well-prepared versatile list.

Doesn't change the fact that they suck.

The problem with bright lances are not their stats.. its purely their points (which can be said for virtually everything else in 40k)

Too little points makes something overpowered.. too many make it useless

The worst unit in the game can have a use if its point cost is low enough.. eventually attrition wins!

case in point: grots

Guardian's platform can allow the bright lance to move and shot, same as WL. if it is on a vehicle, it can move 12" then shot (since most eldar vehicles are fast). as a SM player, my man armed lascannon and ML always can use its front armor facing you. and eldar has guided, which makes their BS3 a bit more.

and i think the game is about balance. bright lance obviously not sucks, also it is not very good. but it just a normal Anti-tank weapon for player to choose. why everyone wants an overpowered weapon? so you can dominion the game by that? that just not fun.

You could join the dark side. Even the worst warrior has BS 4.

Oh yea and DL and blasters are 5-10 points.

Did I mention we can take two of each in a squad?


And we have pointy hats! BEAT THAT!

Clthomps wrote:You could join the dark side. Even the worst warrior has BS 4.

Oh yea and DL and blasters are 5-10 points.

Did I mention we can take two of each in a squad?


And we have pointy hats! BEAT THAT!

lol, that is what all eldars are crying about.

I don't use Brightlances in my Eldar army.

My anti-tank comes from Fire Dragons, Witchblades, Prismcannon, Str 6 weapons at rear armor.

It's about reliable shoots that do what they are supposed to. Brightlances with BS 3 shooting isn't worth my time.

Bright lances are a fun fething tastic weapon.

They are also overpriced as hell. Thats the problem.

Should cost like 20 points on the wave serpent, which should only be 70 base really.

Dark Lances are awesome, especially for the points cost. Unless you play necrons....

Adamah wrote:Dark Lances are awesome, especially for the points cost. Unless you play necrons....

I assume you mean "Against" necrons in which case Dark Lances are even BETTER!

Assuming its a relative point cost game... if they are taking a monolith, thats X less troops they can bring.

Killing 75% of their troops with Dark Lances (aka no "We'll be back" rolls) is rather easy. Ignore the floating box, it will take too many 5-6s on the glancing table to matter, plus phase-outing a Necron player is SO much fun...

A decent Necron player would have an orb.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote: plus phase-outing a Necron player is SO much fun...

not to mention easier than a drunk college chick.