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willydstyle wrote:For anti-tank you don't need AP. Sure EMLs don't have lance, but they also have 12" better range and a plasma missile option.

I mention the AP because it's useful against certain MCs and TEQs. It's not a big thing but is just something else the lance can do that the missile can't. The plasma missile doesn't help for anti-tank either, but it's still worth mentioning as an advantage for the ML.

willydstyle wrote:Also, when you purchase fire dragons, it's not like a wave serpent is a worthless thing to have on the field, even after the fire dragons get out and die.

And what weapon do you then give that wave serpent? TL bright lance perhaps? It's only 15 points more than the ML. I don't think any competitive eldar army buys a platform for the bright lance, but rather the platforms end up with bright lances because it's an available option.

Personally bright lances are the bane of my armour, doesn't matter how many there are or how much armour I field, if i have anything on the table with an AV against eldar it goes pop. hence against eldar my smurfs and wolves go footslogging with extra dev's/long fangs, while my grey knighs cry like babies as their anti-tank dreads bite the dust in the first turn, then they grow a pair and ignore any tanks (not always a good tactic against fire prisms but the look on their face when say i dont care about the FP is priceless )

You do realize that a bright lance has no better chance of killing a dreadnought than a missile launcher does?

Lets see what those chances are:

75% chance to hit (we'll be nice and say it's the 45 point wave serpent version)

33% chance to pen.

33% chance to destroy.

So the total chance is 8.1% To wreck your "anti-tank" dread to die on the first turn. Not the worse odds in the world, for sure, but not the best odds either. Your opponent would have to be running probably about 8 or 9 of these to give him a 50% chance of wrecking a single dread on turn one.

Night Lords wrote:A decent Necron player would have an orb.

QFT, and though I've learned to take haywire grenades, a good necron player can really take advantage of the fact that the dark lance, literally, cannot kill a monolith (it might be able to reduce its effectiveness to near nothing but still)


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willydstyle wrote:You do realize that a bright lance has no better chance of killing a dreadnought than a missile launcher does?

Lets see what those chances are:

75% chance to hit (we'll be nice and say it's the 45 point wave serpent version)

33% chance to pen.

33% chance to destroy.

So the total chance is 8.1% To wreck your "anti-tank" dread to die on the first turn. Not the worse odds in the world, for sure, but not the best odds either. Your opponent would have to be running probably about 8 or 9 of these to give him a 50% chance of wrecking a single dread on turn one.

The difference is you can take 2 in a 100 point troops squad while 1 missile launcher (even in a basic sm squad) is gonna cost you at least 150, more lances=better odds of popping armor

willydstyle wrote:You do realize that a bright lance has no better chance of killing a dreadnought than a missile launcher does?

Lets see what those chances are:

75% chance to hit (we'll be nice and say it's the 45 point wave serpent version)

33% chance to pen.

33% chance to destroy.

So the total chance is 8.1% To wreck your "anti-tank" dread to die on the first turn. Not the worse odds in the world, for sure, but not the best odds either. Your opponent would have to be running probably about 8 or 9 of these to give him a 50% chance of wrecking a single dread on turn one.

I know i seem to have abysmal luck with tanks of any sort, I think out of all my games over 10 years the only vehicle I have thats survived a pen. hit is my raven guard ven. dread. The dice are fickle masters, hence i prefer to run footsloggers, especially with the abundance of cover saves nowdays, but hey i make more 5+ saves on termi's than 2+.

Adamah wrote:

The difference is you can take 2 in a 100 point troops squad while 1 missile launcher (even in a basic sm squad) is gonna cost you at least 150, more lances=better odds of popping armor

yeah our groups eldar player loves his guardians, but hey more for me to think about, there's ways round everything

Guardians can only take 1 heavy weapon. Adamah is referring to Dark Eldar Warriors.

Sorry for not being clear, i hadn't noticed the "2" and i'm not particularly familiar with the 2 dex's either, need to practice my proof reading skills

if thats the case then i'll have to be even more wary of DE players except the fact i cant find any round here, just vulkan marines, orks and nids. Never thought i'd actually long to play someone who uses DE.

need variety....

Dark lances are point for point one of the best tank slowing options out there. The 1 in 3 chance to affect a tank at 36" away is golden. You can also get LOTS of them and for a very low price. Also they happen to be the only real anti-tank weapon the DE have (unless you're running masses of haywires)

Bright lances however are hugely more expensive and compete with a very similar,cheaper and much more versatile weapon in the form of the missile launcher. Eldar don't need to rely on lances either as they have dragons to kill AV14 and 13, Missile launchers to kill AV12, Scatter lasers to kill AV10-11 and prisms to help out if needed. Therefore they are not as essential as dark lances and due to a prohibitive cost they are pretty sucky.

Bright lances aren't bad per say. They about as effective as a Las Cannon but they just cost too many points for what they do. The pricing for bright lances is not good. Dark Eldar can have 2 dark lances in an infantry squad at bs4 while Eldar can take 1 bright lance at bs3 for more then double what those 2 dark lances cost dark eldar. That is the problem.

Culler wrote:Well, an eldar bright lance does have almost a 1/10 chance of getting immobilize or destroyed, which is what you want when you're trying to stop land raiders from spewing their contents into your army, almost a 15% chance when you twin-link it. This is almost 3 times the effectiveness of an IG lascannon.

Know what Orks have that has a decent chance of killing land raiders at range? Nothing. Zip. Zero. Nada. Squat. Quit yer whining.

Because of the range and type of weapon you must compare a BL to a Lascannon. To be honest a BL > Lascannons in ever respect against heavy armor, I think they are more than fine. I fear them against my LRBT more than anything!!


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willydstyle wrote:You do realize that a bright lance has no better chance of killing a dreadnought than a missile launcher does?

Lets see what those chances are:

75% chance to hit (we'll be nice and say it's the 45 point wave serpent version)

33% chance to pen.

33% chance to destroy.

So the total chance is 8.1% To wreck your "anti-tank" dread to die on the first turn. Not the worse odds in the world, for sure, but not the best odds either. Your opponent would have to be running probably about 8 or 9 of these to give him a 50% chance of wrecking a single dread on turn one.

But if the dreadnaught has AV13 like many of the newer version, the BL owns a ML.

Nobody is saying that Bright Lances don't do their job. Merely that unlike Dark Eldar, Eldar cannot put them on the field cheaply or plentifully enough for them to be effective.

To make up for Bright Lances failings, Eldar have access to Fire Dragons, bike councils, emls, and other various anti vehicle options which are all more cost effective than a bright lance, which at 45 points (waveserpent version) is very expensive for a single heavy weapon. I mean at 145 points for a lance serpent, thats nearly as expensive as a hammerhead.

However, saying Eldar have other anti vehicle options is not logically equivalent to arguing that the bright lance has many failings, which it does. Quite frankly the Bright Lance is NOT a good weapon primarily because of its cost.

Now whether the lance should be made cheaper or stronger is a different question entirely and involves a myriad of balance issues that are a separate problem entirely from the question of whether or not its a good weapon.

The Bright Lance is an excellent weapon at ~40% of it's current cost. Right now it's merely sub-optimal, not full blown suck.

akaean wrote:
....effective than a bright lance, which at 45 points (waveserpent version) is very expensive for a single heavy weapon. I mean at 145 points for a lance serpent, thats nearly as expensive as a hammerhead.

see this is where I think many Eldar players fail to grasp the advantage of said Bright lance.

- Yours is twin linked

- DE is on a Transport that costs 55pts base, is open topped, and has AV 10

- You have Closed top, AV 12, and "anti-lance" tech as well as the options of fielding a much more versatile craft(with what is inside)...

- The hammerhead is not a transport

yes but.........
all it takes is one glance to keep that gun from shooting. And twin linked on BS3 means it will hit one more time out of twelve then regular on BS4.
I think a wave serpent with stones and lances should cost 100 points.

An important aspect of hating on Brightlances, I'm noticing, is absolutely refusing to acknowledge that you can put them on Wraithlords. BS4, T8, unshakable Wraithlords that can move and shoot and wreck house on Vehicles and Squads without Powerfists in CC.

Wraithlords are great, but only if you have a footslogging or hybrid list. Those of us who prefer mech cant really use them, as they are static and prone to rolling 1s.

You can roll a one with anything...

And just because you prefer using certain army builds doesn't mean a particular weapon sucks!

No, if you roll a 1 with a wraithlord it gets to stand around and do nothing, unless you have a psyker nearby. And its still overcosted on wraithlords, just not nearly as much for a wave serpent or guardians.

I dont think anyone is saying the lance is a bad weapon, simply that it costs way too much.

Ah. Wraithsight... gotcha.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:yes but.........
all it takes is one glance to keep that gun from shooting.

Same with a Raider/Ravager, yet they don't reduce weapons str, have armor 12.

I mean, I would totally spend 45 points to make my raiders av12/12/10 with stones (Hell, I'll even say they can stay open topped).

This is......Blasphemy.


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except against monoliths,....then they suck.

Brightlances are just awful, and the Lance rule is a relic from 3rd edition that needs to be put to rest.

Just make it S10 AP1, better than a Lascannon; as it should be. (for so called masters of laser weaponry).

The current bright lance is a joke, and a bad one at that.

Daba wrote:Brightlances are just awful, and the Lance rule is a relic from 3rd edition that needs to be put to rest.

Care to explain why they gave it to 5th Edition Nids then?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Care to explain why they gave it to 5th Edition Nids then?

Should doesn't mean GW will, and doesn't stop it from being a 3rd edition relic.

It's certainly not the only thing that should be changed to make the game better.

Daba wrote:
Should doesn't mean GW will, and doesn't stop it from being a 3rd edition relic.

Couldn't the same thing be said about Melta Weaponry then?

I think the Lance type of weaponry is fine.

The current strength of the Bright/Dark Lance and its AP value is fine as well.

I however, do think that both Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar should get a heavier weapon that has lance as well, and Bright/Dark Lances should become assault.

The heavy lances could be something like

Eldar - Solar Lance - Str 10 Ap 2 Lance 60" Range Heavy 1 - +25 pts the cost of Bright Lance, can't be taken with Gaurdians

Dark Eldar - Shadow Lance - Str 9 AP 2 Lance 48" Range Heavy 2 +25 pts the cost of a Dark Lance, Can't be taken with Warriors or Scourges (Ravager/Raiders only, unless they add some more vehicles in the next dex)

New Vect would have 1 Shadow lance 2 Disintegrators (same point cost)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I however, do think that both Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar should get a heavier weapon that has lance as well, and Bright/Dark Lances should become assault.

The heavy lances could be something like

Eldar - Solar Lance - Str 10 Ap 2 Lance 60" Range Heavy 1 - +25 pts the cost of Bright Lance, can't be taken with Gaurdians

Dark Eldar - Shadow Lance - Str 9 AP 2 Lance 48" Range Heavy 2 +25 pts the cost of a Dark Lance, Can't be taken with Warriors or Scourges (Ravager/Raiders only, unless they add some more vehicles in the next dex)

New Vect would have 1 Shadow lance 2 Disintegrators (same point cost)

Thing is, doing this would pretty much give eldar the best ranged anti-tank weapon in the game ("Solar Lance" is better than a railgun, 2+ to glance AV14! (although not AP1)). Now, I don't play Eldar, but I've never heard too much complaining about a lack of anti-tank power, so would giving them such a good anti-tank weapon really be a good idea?

Ummm... Don't they already have heavier weapons? Prism Cannons?

Daba wrote:for so called masters of laser weaponry

and they have yet to invent a searchlight for their vehicles....

Monster Rain wrote:Ummm... Don't they already have heavier weapons? Prism Cannons?

Among other weapons/units, yes. But, according to Daemon-Archon Ren, they apparently need the best anti-tank weapon too (unless he means for like apocalypse units, then there'd be no problem)

I think that the main argument against the mainstream use of Prism Cannons for anti tank is that you get one shot per turn from at least 230 points worth of investment. Which is also a blast and might easily scatter off of things.