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Hey DakkaDakka, first post here in hopes of finding proper critique on my list, hopefully I'll be able to help out other in return.
This is my SW list so far, it has took a lot of refining and changes to get where it is now. I'm hoping to make it even better.

HQ:1) Rune Priest - 100 pts.
HQ:1) Wolf Lord/Thunderwolf Mount/Storm Shield/1x Wolf Claw/Wolf Tooth Necklace/1x Wolf - 195 pts.
Elites:1) Lone Wolf/Terminator/Chainfist/Stormshield/2x Wolves - 105 pts.
Elites:1) Dreadnought/Assault Cannon/Twin-Linked Auto-Cannon/Wolf Tail Talisman - 120 pts.
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/1x Power Fist/Wolf Standard - 225 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/1x Power Fist/Wolf Standard - 225 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/1x Power Fist/Wolf Standard - 225 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:9) Grey Hunters/1x Melta/1x Power Fist/Wolf Standard - 210 pts
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Fast Attack:3) Thunderwolf Cavalry/1x Thunder Hammer/1x Melta Bombs/1x Bolter - 185 pts.
Heavy Support:6) Long Fangs Pack/4x Lascannons/1x Missile Launcher - 200 pts.
Heavy Support:6) Long Fangs Pack/5x Heavy Bolter - 115 pts.
Heavy Support:5) Long Fangs Pack/4x Heavy Bolter - 95 pts.

2000 pts.

-The Rune Priest runs with the 9 man GH squad. It used to have Chooser of the Slain, but I could not find a proper use for it.
-TWC+Wolf Lord acts as a flanking support squad, they usually start on the far right or left. They only have trouble with T7+ creatures, other then that, they're a wrecking crew.
-The Lone Wolf is what I use to tie up almost anything in CC. My Lone Wolf set-up has been able to wipe the floor with the new Swarmlord several times. Also, if just playing regular games, I often switch the Chainfist for a TH.
-The DakkaDread is used to kill elite troops and infantry and has proven to be a "fear" unit in my list.

Everything else is pretty self explanatory.
Now I want some critiquing and input on this list!

Cheers, and thanks in advance!

it looks good very different to what id take in my wolves list , my only qualm is that you don't have storm shields on your thunderwolves which i consider necessary as they are your only real cc hit, also id swich those pfists for claws just because you get more attacks and will get re rolls on your wounds etc which is also cheaper the wolf standards are cool bit i wouldn't take them grab more ML on you fangs (2 maybe per squad is what i run)

other than that it looks good

What do you mean switch the Powerfists for claws?
The Grey Hunters cannot take Wolf Claws?

The Wolf Standards are staying, they are invaluable.
With the Wolf Standard I can basically stand toe to toe to Genestealers and other CC monsters.

I have a few questions for you how does a wolf standard help you stand toe to toe with genestealers (you must be the luckiest MEQ ever)? If a full unit of Genestealers make it to you your a goner and if they are the elite ones the (ymargar or whatever they are called you have no hope). Powerfists are almost useless (one attack on the profile 2 when chargeing) for a Greyhunter for 25 pts to costly for 10 pts less you can have MotW probably the most under rated upgrade for your GH's D6+1 rending attacks, D6+2 on the charge that is something (can hit up to a armor value of 13 and if your lucky can solo a dread or a Trygon) your best bet is drop the wolf standard which is a one time use to re-roll 1's for 10 pts not that good not bad but isnt gonna save you from a unit of geney's. I would replace your wolflords wolf claw with a frost blade on the mount its extremely useful str 6 pw is great for 5 pts more i would also drop the wolf tooth necklace on him as hes ws6 and will need a 3 most of the time against anything but the best of IC's (but if you fight chaos or some other cc geared army then keep it). I would also split up your hvy weapons in your LF's you have to have a sgt and he allows you to split fire which is their strength having all in one squad is asking for a blast to wipe out your only Long range fire power. Put the Chooser of the slain on the rune priest its to valuable to not have +1 bs and doesnt allow infiltrators to smash a flank. Your Lone wolf is alot of points i would cut his costs down isnt completely necessary but would be nice imo remember you want him to die in a KP match so dont make him to tough just tough enough to make it to the foe. You have a very limited amount of armor and they are all AV 11 your more then likely gonna lose alot of rhinos trying to make it to your opponents line i would take out 2 LF's and put some vindicators in as when your whole army advances your'll cover your LF's fire lanes inless you have alot of buildings to get up on. I use two preds with a Hvy bolter LF unit works well for me so far thats also a option. But in a full assault list like this you should use 2 vindicators imo with a unit of LF's using ML's/Lc's in a 2k list to add range punch. Maybe have a unit or two of grey hunters use 2x flamers for anti horde duty. you have a small number of men for a 2k list it seems to me and i dont know who you play against but if you play a shooty army you are gonna have a rough time and if you dont get 1st turn vs a shooty force may god help you they are gonna rip though your 4 rhinos and dreads quickly at 2k points. i agree with Sand in that storm shields are a nice edition to TWC. Your dread is good maybe make it have two TL-AC's so you can sit 48 inches away but if that setup is working for you thats great keep it im a fan of AC's.

But to your statement of the wolf standard being invaluable i have to disagree i would rather use those 40 pts in your list on other things. And maybe invest in some Fast attack at 2k points.

thats all i can really see from your list (although i dislike the use of TWC to much of a pt sink to me).

good luck and hope i didn't offend you.

I usually tie with an average squad of Genestealers that I go up against(5-8). Although my squad is nearly wiped out, I also almost always wipe out him.
It's just how it's worked for me so far.

The Dread has also always worked well for me. It's good for taking out heavier troops.

I really like the idea of splitting the heavy weapons out in the squads. It's a simple thing that just completely passed over my head.

I've ran the double Vindicator list before. It's great for taking out hordes, but it just doesn't put out enough wounds for the MC and IC's.

I agree with the Rhinos and only being AV11, but again, I haven't had too much trouble with it, this is just my experiences so far, so they are definately subject to change after I get more games in.

I'm going to have to try the Frost Blade with the Wolf Lord. I used to run it, but back then my list wasn't refined enough to make a good use of it.

I'll see about the Chooser of the Slain, I haven't really had a problem with infiltrators too much, then again I haven't played against many!


Thanks for the thoughts, it's given me some more ideas.

Just some thoughts:

I'm a big fan of naked TWC. For 250 points they're a solid fast attack choice. The only think I MIGHT suggest adding to them is a power fist (maybe). But for 250 points they're S5 T5 W2 cavalry that generate 30 attacks on the charge. I'll take three. Goes especially well with the thunder wolf lord.

Just a thought: have you considered dropping the long fangs down to three-man units and sticking them in rhinos? It makes for a MUCH more durable heavy support choice.

If you're going for a dakka dread, just take a second TL autocannon. higher strength gives it more flexibility.

I don't like the wolf standard. I don't think it does enough for its point cost. I think Mark of the Wulfen is much better. It's always on and will generate more attacks over the course of a game than the wolf standard will save in the course of one assault phase.

Finally, I highly recommend dropping one of the grey hunter units and adding two min units of wolf scouts with melta bombs. Adds a bit of disruption to your list and adds a potent anti-tank threat. Outflanking on 3+ and ending up in yoru opponent's deployment zone is all kinds of good.

If you have tried it or played against it, how have the Scouts worked out over a fully equipped GH squad?

There's been alot of dislike for the Wolf Standard, I'm going to have to test it out some more.

Right now I'm debating switching the Power Fists in the GH squads for MoTW. I'd hate to get rid of the S8 Power Weapon hits though.
I used to run Wolf Guard in the GH squads with Combi-Meltas and PF's, they gave me an extra attack, but at a much higher point cost.

@ Knute i agree wolf scouts are a key asset 2 units are great and can cause major damage i only use one as most armies aren't gun-line anymore and so can avoid your wolf scouts pretty easy i use them more as a thought in the back of a opponents mind and if they forget about them they roll on and disrupt plans so one unit is a nice weapon to have in a army its all how you play really i dont use TWC cause i think they'll get shot up and a 250 pt unit is alot to dump on a cc unit which may not make it. How well do they do against a gun line army?

@ sinsygon I wouldnt replace a GH squad mainly cause they great/cheap troops i dont use melta-bombs on my wolf scouts i use meltaguns and one or two plasma pistols. I use 5 scouts in my lists and they do well i target weak vital targets (Zoanthropes, small troops holding OBJ's, or a lone vech in the back) but my wolf scouts have worked wonders you should drop the wolf standards and down grade to MotW from PF's and then your'll have almost enough to make a decent wolf scout unit. (You can also make a nasty cc wolf scout unit which has done well in Play testing for me but lacks anti-vech and costs more points).

I'll probably be replacing the Wolf Standard and PF for the Scouts. I've been wanting to try them for a while.
I just have a question with your set up. 2 Plasma pistols? I've seen that get more kills on the Scouts then the opponent! How has it worked for you?
Not to mention how expensive the pistols are.

I think for the wolf scouts to be efficient, they need a WG pack leader. Also, for mass disruption, podding a Dread and then OBEL with the scouts is an even better option. Scouts should be supported and not left out on their own.

Not a big fan of powerfists in GH squads. If I want a PF in the squad, I'll keep them at 9 models and attach a WGPL w/ PF. Better buy in my book.

Here is the revised list so far.
Removed 1 Wolf from the Lone Wolf, removed Wolftooth Necklace on Wolf Lord, gave the Wolf Lord a Frost Blade, lost a Missile Launcher in the Long Fangs, lost the Wolf Standards and PF's in the GH squads and gave them MoTW

Added 5 Wolf Scouts with a Melta Gun and Plasma Pistol(Could be 3 Melta Bombs or a Power Weapon.)
I'm considering just replacing all the Lascannons for Missile Launchers, they're cheaper and basically just as good for high T creatures. I will leave my heavy armor killing to the Melta.


HQ:1) Rune Priest - 100 pts.
HQ:1) Wolf Lord/Thunderwolf Mount/Storm Shield/1x Frost Blade/1x Wolf - 210 pts.
Elites:1) Lone Wolf/Terminator/Chainfist/Stormshield/1x Wolves - 95 pts.
Elites:1) Dreadnought/Assault Cannon/Twin-Linked Auto-Cannon/Wolf Tail Talisman - 120 pts.
Elites:5) Wolf Scouts Pack/1x Melta Gun/1x Plasma Pistol - 100 pts.
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/MoTW - 205 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/MoTW - 205 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/MoTW - 205 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:9) Grey Hunters/1x Melta/MoTW - 190 pts
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Fast Attack:3) Thunderwolf Cavalry/1x Thunder Hammer/1x Melta Bombs/1x Bolter - 185 pts.
Heavy Support:6) Long Fangs Pack/2x Lascannon/3x Heavy Bolters - 155 pts.
Heavy Support:5) Long Fangs Pack/1x Lascannon/3x Heavy Bolters - 115 pts.
Heavy Support:5) Long Fangs Pack/1x Lascannon/3x Heavy Bolters - 115 pts.

2000 pts.



Also, I'm surprised no one caught the math error for the Wolf Lord, he was severely underpriced in the original list.

For the latest iteration of this list I will make a few recommendations:

1) If the Lord is attaching to the Thunderwolves, I would just give his one Wolf to the Lone Wolf as he'll need it more.

2) Lascannons are cool...however, I feel that with as much Melta as you're fielding, you will see their necessity diminish. I would save some points by trading in all of the Lascannons for Missile Launchers. If you do this you can add on another Missile Launcher Long Fang to one of the squads with no real overall shifting of points. Also, this will maximize the Long Fangs ability to split fire and engage the best targets for their weapons.

Otherwise, I'm a fan of the list. Good Hunting!

@ Ironhide, i have been using my Wolf scouts without a WG leading the pack as i have mine meant for shooting and Ld isnt that big of a concern it may be better but as for increasing there effectiveness in shooting not really a combat oriented wolf scout pack are great with a WG using a PF. As for needing to support scout units it can go either way i dont like dropping dreads as in my experiences they just pop i have started dropping a GH pack with twin meltas and they have been doing great if i use a single pack of Wolf scouts i make them cheap (exact set up Sinsygon is doing to be exact) cheap and great when they first roll on the board as 66.67% of the times they go were you want them remember dont always look to the enemies deployment zone for the most effective target (ive came on from the side to kill synapse creatures and stop a whole flank of gaunts before). Another note is your enemy always thinks they are coming from the back as well which forces them to protect Hvy support trying to set back and then you pop on from the side to hit a target. (i personally love my wolf scouts and aren't a major target for my opponents as their are more pressing targets most of the time).

@ SinSygon, Your list is alot like mine but i dont use so many LF's i just like the look of preds. And it looks good to me its alot more flexible then your last list you may want to try podding a CC dread or a unit of melta toting GH's ive also considered about a Runepriest with WG podding and it seems like it would work. Rune priest takes Storm caller and Murderous hurricane (although i haven't play tested the RP WG combo). Murderous hurricane is a great power remember if your enemy moves and rolls a one they die, Dangerous terrain ftw.

Other then that its seems you are ready my friend i cant think of anything i would do (cough drop the cav. lol..jk jk) nah good luck Fenrisian .

Alright, so I've switched back to missile launchers(I used to run them, but I wanted to test out Lascannons).
Threw in a Melta bomb for the Scouts, an extra wolf for the Wolf Lord and Lone Wolf.
Gave the Rune Priest Chooser of the Slain again.

HQ:1) Rune Priest/Chooser of the Slain - 110 pts.
HQ:1) Wolf Lord/Thunderwolf Mount/Storm Shield/1x Frost Blade/2x Wolf - 220 pts.
Elites:1) Lone Wolf/Terminator/Chainfist/Stormshield/2x Wolves - 105 pts.
Elites:1) Dreadnought/Assault Cannon/Twin-Linked Auto-Cannon/Wolf Tail Talisman - 120 pts.
Elites:5) Wolf Scouts Pack/1x Melta Gun/1x Plasma Pistol/1x Melta Bomb - 105 pts.
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/MoTW - 205 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/MoTW - 205 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:10) Grey Hunters/2x Melta/MoTW - 205 pts.
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Troops:9) Grey Hunters/1x Melta/MoTW - 190 pts
Dedicated Transport:1) Rhino
Fast Attack:3) Thunderwolf Cavalry/1x Thunder Hammer/1x Melta Bombs/1x Bolter - 185 pts.
Heavy Support:6) Long Fangs Pack/2x Missile Launcher/3x Heavy Bolters - 125 pts.
Heavy Support:6) Long Fangs Pack/2x Missile Launcher/3x Heavy Bolters - 125 pts.
Heavy Support:5) Long Fangs Pack/1x Missile Launcher/3x Heavy Bolters - 100 pts.

2000 pts.

I was considering drooping 1 Wolf on the Wolf Lord and a Melta bomb on the Scouts in favor of an extra Scout model.

Don't take a frost blade over a wolf claw, the math almost always goes with the claw over the blade.

From Purgatus at YTTH

Versus Toughness 3 (applying rerolls to “To Hit”*):

Wolf Claw: 4 Hits, with 1.3333 additional hits after rerolls. So, you have 5.333 total hits, which result in 4.444 “wounds” on average.
Frost Blade: 4 hits, 3.333 wounds.
Result: Wolf Claw wins by 1.111 wounds.

*Please note this is the ONLY circumstance in this model where you should apply your rerolls to hit instead of to wound. The reasoning is simple: It’s better to reroll 1/3 of something than 1/6 of something, right? Right.

Versus Toughness 4 (rerolls to wound):

Wolf Claw: 4 hits, 2.666 wounds, .8889 with the reroll, 3.555 total.
Frost Blade: 4 hits, 3.333 wounds.
Result: Wolf Claw wins by .222 wounds.

Versus Toughness 5 (rerolls to wound):

Wolf Claw: 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 more with a reroll, 3 total wounds.
Frost Blade: 4 hits, 2.666 wounds.
Result: Wolf Claw wins by .3333 wounds.

Versus Toughness 6 (rerolls to wound):

Wolf Claw: 4 hits, 1.333 wounds, .889 more with a reroll, 2.222 total wounds.
Frost Blade: 4 hits, 2 wounds.
Result: Wolf Claw wins by .222 wounds.

Versus Toughness 7 (rerolls to wound):

Wolf Claw: 4 hits, .667 wounds, .556 more with a reroll. 1.222 total wounds.
Frost Blade: 4 hits, 1.333 wounds.
Result: Frost Blade wins by .111 wounds.

Versus Toughness 8 (rerolls to wound):

Wolf Claw: 4 hits, .667 wounds, .556 with a reroll, 1.222 total wounds.
Frost Blade: 4 hits, .667 wounds.
Result: Wolf Claw wins by. .667 wounds.

Conclusions:

The results seem pretty clear. There is only one scenario in which the Frost Blade comes out on top, and that is versus Toughness 7 targets (because there are lot of those flying around!) In every other case, the Claw is the clear winner, coming out furthest ahead against Toughness 3 targets where it can make best use of it’s “selectable reroll.”

Now, the Frost Blade has a few other bonuses which I should mention for the sake of full disclosure, which is that it IS strength 6 for purposes of penetrating armor, and it will cause instant-death on Toughness 3 models. If that is enough of a bonus for you to pay 5 more points and lose some effectiveness in other areas, then go for it.

But being armed with the facts makes for better decision making in most cases than “Hurr!! I’m Strength 6… OWNZORS!”

Well, that changes that, lol.

But the frost blade adds to plus one attack with a pistol or hand weapon but i see your using a storm shield so you wouldn't get it any how. lol i do like the stat set up though from the above post. i wonder if that extra attack will make the difference ill run the numbers post it up tomorrow. LOL couldnt wait till tomorrow ran it down and found the guy and site.

"It’s possible that the player could use a Belt of Russ and get the off-hand attack for the Frost Blade, and in that case the Blade would probably come out slightly ahead in the calculation. You could get the same effect from a second Wolf Claw, but you would end up spending 15 more points for it. If you REALLY want to eek out that one extra attack, the Frost Blade is probably a better buy. "

From Purgatus on YTTH

Assault
FW - 12.48 attacks = 6.93 Wounds
WC - 11.06 attacks = 6.55 Wounds.

From VirusSD1 on YTTH

I wanted to see what if its on higher Toughnesses so i did the math and
got. I did a full stat run using a wolf lord needing fours to hit.

(Based off a Wolf Lord)
all opponents are hit on 4's (50% hit rate)

(Reroll to wound)

T 4
WC 4/2=2 x .75 = 1.75

FB 5/2.5 x .6666 = 1.66

Winner WC

T 5
WC 4/2= 2 x .49 = .98

FB 5/2 = 2.5 x .50 = 1.25

Winner FB

T6
WC 4/2 = 2 x .2499 = .5

FB 5/2 = 2.5 x .3333 = .833

Winner FB

T7
WC 4/2 = 2 x .2499 = .5

FB 5/2 = 2.5 x .1666 = .41

Winner WC

T8
WC un-woundable

FB 5/2 = 2.5 x .1666 = .41

Winner FB

Total wounds
WC = 3.73

FB = 4.56 (without T8 results) 4.15[i]

So the FB still cares more weight overall then the WC's. Now i chose to start a T4 beacuse its the most common toughness and few T3 (Besides Banshees and Scorpions) are any good in cc and im tired lol.

As you can see at T4 without a Thunder wolf mount the WC still wins but vs higher toughnesses the FB wins so there we go . Interesting stuff lol (whoo Stats comes in handy)

Tomorrow ill do a Wolfguard stat sheet as i thought they would be the same but it seems Attacks and str really affect the abilities of the WC and ill run some numbers to see re-roll to hits and re-roll to wounds (maybe we will be surprised).

FoeHammer wrote:@ Ironhide, i have been using my Wolf scouts without a WG leading the pack as i have mine meant for shooting and Ld isnt that big of a concern it may be better but as for increasing there effectiveness in shooting not really a combat oriented wolf scout pack are great with a WG using a PF. As for needing to support scout units it can go either way i dont like dropping dreads as in my experiences they just pop i have started dropping a GH pack with twin meltas and they have been doing great if i use a single pack of Wolf scouts i make them cheap (exact set up Sinsygon is doing to be exact) cheap and great when they first roll on the board as 66.67% of the times they go were you want them remember dont always look to the enemies deployment zone for the most effective target (ive came on from the side to kill synapse creatures and stop a whole flank of gaunts before). Another note is your enemy always thinks they are coming from the back as well which forces them to protect Hvy support trying to set back and then you pop on from the side to hit a target. (i personally love my wolf scouts and aren't a major target for my opponents as their are more pressing targets most of the time).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting a WGPL w/ PF for scouts. More like WGPL w/ combi-weapon. And when I say OBEL, I mean popping up unexpectedly. Usually to the enemy's detriment.

To be honest i wouldn't use a combi-weapon but a 28 pt WG with a plasma pistol maybe worth it 2 pts cheaper then a wolf scout with plasma pistol (although you didnt suggest this you got me looking ill credit you with this breakthrough lol).

5 wolf scouts and a WG: 143 pts
melta-gun, 3 plasma pistols

or

5 wolf scouts and a WG: 128
melta-gun, 2 plasma pistols

or ironhides special:
5 wolf scouts and a WG: 103
Melta-gun, combi-melta

i may try your set up Ironhide.

Good List. Let me just sat that Wolf Scouts are awesome. My biggest issue is that I am jsut not a fan of send them out to just blow something up and then die. I have tried a Drop Dread, Wolf Scout, Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter move for disruption and have had mixed results. Play what you like. though. My Wolf Lord is 260 points and is a beast. I running some TWC at Adepticon this year and I cannot decide on build to save my life. Frustrating for certain.

Good luck with this, I hope it works.

@FoeHammer: That is the combo I go for, minus the PP. As my scouts are usually used to take out vehicles. The combi-melta and meltagun pretty much ensure a dead tank when I want it dead now.

Yea i see what your saying but i play alot of nids and plasma pistols are great for Fiex and trygon hunting.And against a AV of 10 in the back for most tanks str 7 is a death dealer.

I've fiddled with the idea of using 10 wolf scouts armed with plasmagun, plasma pistols, and bolters for nid hunting. Wish we still had the option of taking shotguns.

You can't take a single WG right? You have to take at least 3?

That is correct. Unit of WG is 3-10, so at least 3.

I was thinking today about removing the Dread+Scouts to get a squad of vanilla Grey Knight Terminators, they'd be footslogging, but they are also terminators that have night fighting rules always.

Thoughts? 5 Storm Bolters, 4 WS5 S6 Power Weapons on the charge + the Brother Captains 5 attacks.

Psycannons would be a must on GK Termies.

I could only get one on the squad, but what about having GK terminators in the first place? Bad/Good idea with my list so far.

Now I'm even thinking about removing the TWC in favor of a Rune Priest in Terminator armor + 5-8 GK Termies. for a nice little killteam.

You could take a GK Brother-Captain w/ a psycannon and then take a retinue of GK Termies w/ a psycannon. Two psycannons in one units. I haven't played GK with SW, so don't know how well they mesh. Would probably be some confusion with GK's True Grit rule, and the SW's counterattack USR.