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Ok so the scenario spawning in my head is kind of unique, dont know if it's been talked about but i'm curious to how this would work. Seems like it would be fair enough.

Ok so say there is a vehicle 13 inches away (arbitrary number) and between your dreadnought/wraithlord or w.e. is a squad of infantry. You shoot your long range anti tank guns at the vehicle, but also attempt to shoot your flamers although they are clearly out of range of the vehicle, but would definitely hit the little blob of infantry right in front of. You've declared the tank as your target, but the flamer is just a bonus. Since weapons fire simultaneously and all that...does this work? or is there something i'm missing in INAT..or RAW?

When dealing with template weapons the rules state that the majority of the template has to be over the officially targeted unit in question. Since you can't get any part of the template even TO the model I'm thinking it's an auto-miss.

Specifically though in reference to your question...

...

I'm too lazy to pick up the rulebook. Ask Gwar.

lol

I do believe that if the targeted unit is not in range then nothing is hit by the template

Sadness...Ah well, seems fair enough tho.

Geomancer wrote:Ok so the scenario spawning in my head is kind of unique, dont know if it's been talked about but i'm curious to how this would work.

The scenario is far from unique and people post this question in some variation every few weeks. The answer is (as always) that the flamer automatically misses since the target is out of range. Page 17 of the main rulebook, "Check Range".

This is one thing I don't like about 40k. It ignores reality of weapons. Even though you miss with a flamer, it is still shooting out of the tank...There is always little things like this that annoy me in the game. But hell, its still fun

The entire game ignores reality, it has to otherwise it could not function as a reasonable abstraction.

Things like "balance" are waaay more important than reality.

The Dragon wrote:When dealing with template weapons the rules state that the majority of the template has to be over the officially targeted unit in question. Since you can't get any part of the template even TO the model I'm thinking it's an auto-miss.

Specifically though in reference to your question...

...

I'm too lazy to pick up the rulebook. Ask Gwar.

lol

Correct. The Targeted Squad is out of range of the Template so it auto misses and cannot hit anything.

InfernalMajesty wrote:This is one thing I don't like about 40k. It ignores reality of weapons. Even though you miss with a flamer, it is still shooting out of the tank...There is always little things like this that annoy me in the game. But hell, its still fun

Reality could be that the guy realizes the target is too far and ends up not shooting at all.
Also, I've seen this brought up before. o_O

Out of curiosity, if the tank was in range (say, 6" away) and the flamer hit intervening models, that unit would suffer hits yes?

Xca|iber wrote:Out of curiosity, if the tank was in range (say, 6" away) and the flamer hit intervening models, that unit would suffer hits yes?

Yes, even if the Flamer couldn't hurt the tank.

Xca|iber wrote:Out of curiosity, if the tank was in range (say, 6" away) and the flamer hit intervening models, that unit would suffer hits yes?

Usually, yes.

Some people do interpret the Template rules to mean that the Template can only ever affect one unit (due to the Template entry specifying referring in a couple of places to the 'unit' (singular))... but this isn't a common interpretation, and to be honest I've never been convinced that anyone actually plays that way.

yes

@ Insaniak: my neighbour believes this. He also believes that markerlights go away once they are used as the rule states that they disappear once used OR at the end of the turn. He interpreted this to mean that he gets to choose.
I laughed.

To be fair, some strands of reality could make the game slightly more interesting. Think of a Krak missile missing it's target and wildly sailign off into the distance, maybe a 4D6 scatter or something). Or flyers beign destoryede, woudl they just explode mid-air if it got a "wrecked" result? Again - BIG scatter followed by a BIG template, surely.

yeah it misses, but why would you have a flamer in the same squad as a long range AT weapon anyway?

Because it's the default set-up for the squad and you didn't have any points left over...?

because have the flamer and ML is a dirt cheap and versatile option?

insaniak wrote:Because it's the default set-up for the squad and you didn't have any points left over...?

haha fair enough, I knew there was a reason I quit playing as space marines...

I would like to point out that in the original example a wraithlord would not be able to fire two anti-tank weapons and both flamers. As the wraithlord is a monstrous creature, it is limited to firing two weapons in a shooting phase.

You could fire one flamer and one anti-tank weapon, or both flamers.

In fact, something I do with wraithlords quite often is to shoot my flamers at a tank to hit an intervening infantry squad, and also give me permission to assault the tank in the CC phase.

Just to clear something up- the rules for template weapons, the flamer in this case, states it must hit as many models as possible in the squad it fires at. Does this affect vehicles i.e you must place the template in such a way that it covers as much of the vehicles hull as possible?

'hit as many models as possible' and 'have as much of the template as possible over a model' are not the same thing... so no, there is no requirement to have as much of the template as possible over the vehicle. It just has to touch it.

I believe the actual rule has language similar to covering "as much of the unit as possible" so if fired at a vehicle would need to be placed to cover as much of the area of the hull as possible.

Actually Insaniak the next sentence after the "must cover as many...." states that, against vehicles you MUST cover as much of the vehicle as possible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually Insaniak the next sentence after the "must cover as many...." states that, against vehicles you MUST cover as much of the vehicle as possible.

Yep, p29
"Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without also touching a friendly model."
I knew it was in there somewhere.

Of course it does. Yay for 4 hours sleep!

I think there's a guess range Tau gun you can mangle like this. Shoot one arm at something nasty behind a squad, then guess short deliberately to hit the unit in front.

Incidentally, I would have no problem letting a flamer shoot the guys infront in a friendly game, even if the rocket guy is shooting a tank. It is a bit much to say that the whole squad has to cross their fingers for the krak missile rather than shooting stuff they can hurt.

Soup and a roll wrote:I think there's a guess range Tau gun you can mangle like this. Shoot one arm at something nasty behind a squad, then guess short deliberately to hit the unit in front.

'Guess' range doesn't work like that any more... They're just Barrage weapons, and don't require you to actually 'guess' the range...

It is a bit much to say that the whole squad has to cross their fingers for the krak missile rather than shooting stuff they can hurt.

It's how it works in every other situation... Why should flamers be an exception?

insaniak wrote:

Soup and a roll wrote:I think there's a guess range Tau gun.

'Guess' range doesn't work like that any more... They're just Barrage weapons, and don't require you to actually 'guess' the range...

And hasn't worked like that since 3rd edition to boot.

Nightwatch wrote:@ Insaniak: my neighbour believes this. He also believes that markerlights go away once they are used as the rule states that they disappear once used OR at the end of the turn. He interpreted this to mean that he gets to choose.
I laughed.

So I just spent 3 hours writing a lesson plan for my class, and so I may be just not reading this right. You are meaning that Markerlights stay active until one of two conditions are met. One the Tau use the markerlight for whatever reason they cay by way of their codex or two, their turn ends. You are not suggesting that they get to use it unit after unit correct? Again, forgive me as I just got done spending 3 hours writing a lesson plan so I'm tired, but just wanted clarification as I dont play Tau and want to understand them a little better.

Thanks Nightwatch