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I've been informed of the INAT ruling on Hive Commander and wanted to know how people would play it. I persumed the entire point of Hive Commander was to make the Tyranid DS assault army work witth the DP assault rule. Hence you hold everything in reserve and have 1-2 Flyrants ready to DS in with the rest of the army.

The rule states that the Hive Tyrant must be alive to get the +1 reserves roll (lets not bother discussing whether it stacks with multi-hive tryants as that will go nowhere until an FAQ). So is he not alive when sat in reserve? If not what use is he when he comes on if he's already dead? The INAT FAQ says the ruling is he has to be on the table for the bonus to count which completely defeats the entire object of the special rule. I was wondering if any one would play it that way? I had honestly not even considered that as a possibility until informed of the ruling. Do people think that ruling will be adopted, do you think TOs would follow such a bizarre ruling? How would you play it? By RAW and RAI or by this bizarre ruling that makes no sense?

If you want to follow this ruling please let me know why you think it is correct?

Bias poll is Bias.

How is it bias? I've put nothing in the polling question that is negative to either oppinion. Do you follow RAW and RAI or do you follow INAT?

You obviously are against RAW in this instance I presume?

FlingitNow wrote:How is it bias?

Because you have loaded the answers. If it were a fair poll, you would just have a Yes or No answer.

Because you have loaded the answers. If it were a fair poll, you would just have a Yes or No answer.

They are not loaded answers. Not everyone follows RAW in fact no-one follows RAW to the letter. Likewise plenty of people like to ignore RAI even when it is clear.

The RAW is clear I am not asking peole to debate the RAW or the RAI but whether they follwo that or the other ruling. It is loaded questions just accurate questions for those that maybe unaware of what the RAW is.

I think he is referring to the fact that you are telling us what the rules are intending. No matter how much RAW seems to be cut and dry it is always up for interpretation.

Do not get me wrong, I am not disputing your claim to it being RAW or RAI, but you saying that it is in your poll and then reiterating it in your post may come across to some as being bias.

I think he is referring to the fact that you are telling us what the rules are intending. No matter how much RAW seems to be cut and dry it is always up for interpretation.

Do not get me wrong, I am not disputing your claim to it being RAW or RAI, but you saying that it is in your poll and then reiterating it in your post may come across to some as being bias.

I'd argue in any court in England they'd rule RAI was with me beyond reasonable doubt. The lictor's rules specifically state it must be on the table the Hive Tyrants simply say a live hence the intention is clear as is the RAW.

People might view it as being bias but it is not. The other ruling has no inference from the text or from the fluff, there is absolutely no basis to argue it is either RAW or RAI. To claim anythign else is simply wrong.

It's as loaded a question as "Have you stopped beating your wife?".

"I follow RAW and RAI that he gets the +1 as long as he is alive" automatically assumes that RAW and RAI are clearly on one side of the issue, where, apparently, the INAT at least has a different take on RAI.

I think the rule should be played the way you suggest, but the poll does have a very clear author bias.

If you can't see how your poll is incredibly biased so as to intentionally skew the results then you're living in a world beyond reason.

Biased poll is biased.

G

Biased poll made me vote for something I wouldn't play.

"I follow RAW and RAI that he gets the +1 as long as he is alive" automatically assumes that RAW and RAI are clearly on one side of the issue, where, apparently, the INAT at least has a different take on RAI.

It can't be a different take on RAI it must be them beleiving their ruling goes above RAI because there is no legitimate basis for claiming RAI other than how the rule works.

If you can't see how your poll is incredibly biased so as to intentionally skew the results then you're living in a world beyond reason.

I am no trying to intentionally scew the votes. I just want to know if you follow the rAW and RAI or if you want to play it differently.

Biased poll made me vote for something I wouldn't play.

How sad for you.

Biased poll.

None of us can say what the Intent is, as none of us wrote the rule.

The INAT FAQ council explains their basic process and reasoning at the front of their document. RAW and what they each perceive to be the RAI are certainly major factors in their deliberations.

Obviously you do not share their opinion in this case. But for me, your poll is not useful, and I will not be voting in it.

None of us can say what the Intent is

I disagree strongly wuith this statement. It implies we have no intelligence at all. I can state as a 100% categorical fact that RAI on The Doom of Malan'tai is that it gets a 3++ save. I'd be happy to argue that with anyone in abritish court. The ruling above is just as clear.

The INAT FAQ council explains their basic process and reasoning at the front of their document. RAW and what they each perceive to be the RAI are certainly major factors in their deliberations.

Evidently the decided against both in this instance.

But for me, your poll is not useful, and I will not be voting in it.

Fair enough.

FlingitNow wrote:

None of us can say what the Intent is

I disagree strongly wuith this statement. It implies we have no intelligence at all. I can state as a 100% categorical fact that RAI on The Doom of Malan'tai is that it gets a 3++ save. I'd be happy to argue that with anyone in abritish court. The ruling above is just as clear.

No, the point I am making is that the designers have not explicitly explained their intent to us, either in writing or verbally. Since they have not told it to us, and since we are not them, it is literally impossible for us to be certain exactly what it is. We can only make inferences. Or ask them, if we happen to see them at an event somewhere.

You’re free to share your opinion, but what you did with your poll is to assume your inference as a settled issue, which it most certainly is not. This is a dishonest way of seeking information, or of pushing people to accept your opinion as a precondition of responding to the poll.

I recommend reading any of Yakface’s You Make Da Call polls, as great examples of how to present these kind of questions with a minimum of bias and a maximum of clarity.

No, the point I am making is that the designers have not explicitly explained their intent to us, either in writing or verbally. Since they have not told it to us, and since we are not them, it is literally impossible for us to be certain exactly what it is.

Wrong it is entirely possible know their intent at times even without them expressly telling us so. Granted some times their intent is impossible to determine and some times it is probably obvious without being 100% knowable. In the case of the Doom intent is 100% categorical as it is here.

You’re free to share your opinion, but what you did with your poll is to assume your inference as a settled issue, which it most certainly is not.

But it is a settled issue.

This is a dishonest way of seeking information, or of pushing people to accept your opinion as a precondition of responding to the poll.

I'm not asking anyone to accept my oppinion (that we should always play by RAI and RAW when they agree). The poll makes no judgement on whether playing RAW and RAI is correct or whether ignoring RAW and RAI is correct.

I recommend reading any of Yakface’s You Make Da Call polls, as great examples of how to present these kind of questions with a minimum of bias and a maximum of clarity.

There is still no bias in the poll. The poll is not to determine what people think RAW or RAI is because that in this case is indesputable. It is whether they play by RAW and RAI or whether they would rather play by the INAT ruling which has no basis in either RAW or RAI.

Like for instance the INAT decides that SMs should have T5 and puts that in as a ruling. The RAW and RAI is, like in the case above, clear that marines are T4 so you ask people whether they play the game as GW intended and at the same time follow the RAW or whether they throw out the RAW and RAI to follow the INAT ruling. What do people play most if RAI and RAW both agree and are different to the INAT FAQ.

Yup, that there's a "push poll."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Push_poll

I felt so dirty having to vote for the option that was stated to be against RAI, RAW, Mom, puppies and fresh-baked apple pie. Ain't I just the most awfulest of men?

I felt so dirty having to vote for the option that was stated to be against RAI, RAW, Mom, puppies and fresh-baked apple pie. Ain't I just the most awfulest of men?

Why did you feel bad? It was a simple question do you follow RAW and RAI or do you follow the INAT ruling which in this case is against both RAW and RAI. Not a push poll, nowhere is there incorrect information in the questions and neither answer says what I beleive. I give no inference in the poll as to whether I beleive following RAI and RAW is better than following INAT or vice versa. The article after it states my oppinion (that RAW and RAI is more important to me than the INAT FAQ), but the question says nothing about this.

LOL.

*ahem*

FlingitNow wrote:
Wrong it is entirely possible know their intent at times even without them expressly telling us so. Granted some times their intent is impossible to determine and some times it is probably obvious without being 100% knowable. In the case of the Doom intent is 100% categorical as it is here.

Apparently you know what evil lurks in the hearts of men... FlingitNow is... THE SHADOW!

But, really-- in the epistemological sense of the term, you do not -know- the intent of the authors. We can sometimes safely assume their intent (when they tell us to roll a d6, we can assume they mean one that has not been weighted for particular outcomes). Sometimes, we have to guess (Deff Rollas comes to mind).
...

But it is a settled issue.

Riiiight... you made a poll for a settled issue. If the issue is settled, why did the INAT disagree with you?
...

I'm not asking anyone to accept my oppinion (that we should always play by RAI and RAW when they agree). The poll makes no judgement on whether playing RAW and RAI is correct or whether ignoring RAW and RAI is correct.

The poll -does- make a judgment when it refers to one option as RAW and RAI, while the other option pees in your gas tank and clubs baby seals. It assumes that one option is THE[b][u] RAI and RAW. By default, that means that the other option is -not- the RAW/RAI. Pretty clear judgment on which answer you support. Further, your defense of it is also suggestive-- one answer is correct, while the other is ignoring the Rules.
...

There is still no bias in the poll. The poll is not to determine what people think RAW or RAI is because that in this case is indesputable. It is whether they play by RAW and RAI or whether they would rather play by the INAT ruling which has no basis in either RAW or RAI.

Like for instance the INAT decides that SMs should have T5 and puts that in as a ruling. The RAW and RAI is, like in the case above, clear that marines are T4 so you ask people whether they play the game as GW intended and at the same time follow the RAW or whether they throw out the RAW and RAI to follow the INAT ruling. What do people play most if RAI and RAW both agree and are different to the INAT FAQ.

Again, evidence of bias-- you're stating that the INAT has no basis in RAW or RAI, which, again, clearly assumes that you, personally, have divined the ONE TRUE RAI.

To top it all off, you present us with a nice little straw man with T5 marines. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Mentioning that it was a INAT ruling in the second option would help remove some bias, but yeah, definetly a loaded question.

I follow RAW and RAI that he gets the +1 as long as he is alive.
The +1 reserves only works when he's on the table

Your options are:
I follow the rules,
I cheat

Apparently you know what evil lurks in the hearts of men... FlingitNow is... THE SHADOW!

But, really-- in the epistemological sense of the term, you do not -know- the intent of the authors. We can sometimes safely assume their intent (when they tell us to roll a d6, we can assume they mean one that has not been weighted for particular outcomes). Sometimes, we have to guess (Deff Rollas comes to mind).

I can know it as much as any man can know anything. I can know it to the same extent that I know 2+2=4 despite the fact that mathematics cannot prove the above equation due to the continuum hypothesis. If you want to be like that we don't even know what is written we could be hallucinating as to what the text says...

Riiiight... you made a poll for a settled issue. If the issue is settled, why did the INAT disagree with you?

the poll isn't about the resolved issue. It is about whether people follow RAW and RAI or whether they would follow INAT if it disagrees with both as it does in this case. I have no idea why INAT made a ruling with no basis in RAW or RAI. But they have done so the question is do you follow that ruling or follow RAW and RAI?

Again, evidence of bias-- you're stating that the INAT has no basis in RAW or RAI, which, again, clearly assumes that you, personally, have divined the ONE TRUE RAI.

The INAT ruling has no basis in RAW or RAI if you beleive it does start a thread up saying why. This thread is not about arguing inanities about the validity of this INAT ruling. It is about whether people will follow it despite the fact that it has no basis in either RAW or RAI.

To top it all off, you present us with a nice little straw man with T5 marines.

Oh dear I think you've shown yourself up here. Please read what I've said. The T5 example was to illustrate the point of the poll which again you have totally missed. You are under the misconception I was asking people to vote on whether they think the INAT FAQ follows RAW or RAI. I don't care what people think of that question I know the facts there, so I've asked whether people will play it by the RAW and RAI or by the INAT FAQ.

Poll should look like this
How do rule on the hive commander reserves bonus?
a) You gain +1 to your reseves roll even if he is not on the table
b) You only gain +1 to your reserves roll while he is on the table

... you may also do as yakface does and post a paragraph on each and then ask for a vote on a, b, c (ect)

Tri wrote:Poll should look like this
How do rule on the hive commander reserves bonus?
a) You gain +1 to your reseves roll even if he is not on the table
b) You only gain +1 to your reserves roll while he is on the table

... you may also do as yakface does and post a paragraph on each and then ask for a vote on a, b, c (ect)

I actually prefer Yakface's format because it forces you to read the post before voting.

If I may ask someone who has voted (as I cannot bring myself to vote in such a bias poll) what are the results so far?

Gwar! wrote:If I may ask someone who has voted (as I cannot bring myself to vote in such a bias poll) what are the results so far?

gwar you can click view results ... but its 15 : 12

as I cannot bring myself to vote in such a bias poll)

Again there is nothing bias about the poll. Please show me where in the question I bias that RAW + RAI > INAT ruling?

Please someone tell me what I've put in the poll that bias toward RAI and RAW opposed to INAT?

I'll give an example of so you can spot the fault.

Can you start a game with model place on top of each other
a) Raw you can as it is only prohibited during movement
b) you cannot move on to impassible terrain

Do you think that DoM gets an Invulnerable save?
A) Yes, because that is what any well-minded, reasonable person would think.
B) No, because I'm TFG, as well as a WAAC gamer.

Now, is this biased?

Klawz wrote:Do you think that DoM gets an Invulnerable save?
A) Yes, because that is what any well-minded, reasonable person would think.
B) No, because I'm TFG, as well as a WAAC gamer.

Now, is this biased?

lets take a poll and decide if you are?

Seriously, stop trolling Flingitnow. If you dont realize why this is an extremely biased poll then I truly feel bad for you...

I'll give an example of so you can spot the fault.

Can you start a game with model place on top of each other
a) Raw you can as it is only prohibited during movement
b) the must be placed so they can move

Not a remotely similar poll that appears to be asking what the rules are. My poll is what will people play given RAW & RAI are A but the INAT FAQ is B.

I'm not debating RAW or RAI that is obvious and not up for debate in this thread. I'm asking people how they will play given RAW and RAI and that the INAT FAQ disagrees which do they choose INAT or RAW and RAI.