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The previous attempt at making a poll on this issue misfired. I made this poll to try to gauge the communities opinion on how the Hive Commander upgrade works in light of the recent INAT FAQ Council ruling listed below.

The Hive Commander upgrade for the Hive Tyrant in the new Nid Codex states:

"If a Hive Tyrant has the Hive Commander upgrade, a single unit of Troops may outflank. In addition, whilst the Hive Tyrant is alive you add +1 to your reserve rolls."

INAT FAQ 3.2 Ruling:
+TYR.34B.04 – Q: Can the „Hive Commander‟ Reserves bonus be utilized even if the Hive Tyrant is in Reserve?
A: No, as the ability doesn‟t specify that it can be used while not in play [clarification].
Ref: IG.31A.02, IG.31C.01, TYR.56G.02


Poll Question. Does the reserve roll bonus from the Hive Commander upgrade work when the Hive Tyrant with that upgrade is itself in reserves?

Poll Options

A. Yes.

Argument: The reserve bonus applies while the hive tyrant is in reserves because the rule only specifies that the hive tyrant must be alive not in that it must be in play. This is validated by the similar rule granted to Lictors and the Deathleaper because those rules state the model must be on the board at the beginning of the movement phase to gain the benefit for that turn.

B. No.

Argument: The Hive Commander rule does not state that it applies when the Hive Tyrant is in reserves like similar abilities in other armies. It states only that it must be alive and this is so you know that the bonus no longer applies once it is dead/removed as a casualty.

Much better!

Now that someone has posted it this way I might not post the opposite of what FlingitNow believes out of spite, then again...

I think I will have to carefully consider this one.

Voted no, based on the precedent set by the IG Astropath in the IG FAQ.

edit: looks like I misremembered it, that's not in the IG FAQ. still voting no, however.

Firstly, thank you very much for posting the question in an unbiased way. Now I feel like I can actually vote on the poll.

I personally voted yes. I certainly think the RAW and RAI are both somewhat unclear in this situation, but I would play that the bonus applies while the Hive Tyrant is in reserves, for the following reasons:
1) Argument from RAW: While it clearly better if all abilities which can affect the game while the unit with the ability is not in play to clearly state so, there is no actual requirement by strict RAW for them to do so, at least so far as I have been able to find by my reading of the rulebook. I take use of the term "whilst" to be indicating the full duration of the effect, not just the end. To me it is saying not only that the effect ends when the tyrant is dead, but also that the effect begins as soon as the tyrant can be said to be alive. I don't think anyone believes that while his model waits in reserves he hasn't actually been born/spawned/whatever yet.

2) Argument from Fluff: I don't think the hive tyrant is just twiddling his thumbs while he waits in reserves for his time to strike. I think he's actually commanding the hive, as indicated by the name of the effect. While the tyrant is in reserves, I believe this represents it waiting near the battlefield and watching events unfold there, using his tactical acumen tot he benefit of the swarm. As such, it makes complete sense to me that a hive tyrant waiting to enter the fray is still providing his forces with the benefit of it's strategical knowledge and cunning, in this case represented by the bonus to reserve rolls.

Voted no, based on the precedent set by the IG Astropath in the IG FAQ.

edit: looks like I misremembered it, that's not in the IG FAQ. still voting no, however.

I was pretty sure they covered that in the FAQ as well...maybe they removed it. It wouldn't be the first time they have back tracked on an FAQ. If someone can find an old FAQ where that is listed and now removed then we really do know the intent

I voted yes though because it just makes sense.

I voted no because units not in play can't affect what's happening in play.

I play Orks. If I have Ghazghkull in my army, the Waaaugh! takes on special properties. It doesn't say that Ghazghkull needs to be alive for me to use his waaaugh!, but would it make sense if I did it?

Dashofpepper wrote:I voted no because units not in play can't affect what's happening in play.

I play Orks. If I have Ghazghkull in my army, the Waaaugh! takes on special properties. It doesn't say that Ghazghkull needs to be alive for me to use his waaaugh!, but would it make sense if I did it?

intresting ... but say he died, would you play it that the orks revert to the standard Waaaugh! or would you play that it is just lost?

It could be argued that if they are never placed on the board they are never alive.. This line of thought comes from that if something has not managed to deepstrike by the end of the game it is considered destroyed for counting KPs, IE you auto come in turn 5, but mishap and get placed back in reserves, game ends turn 5 and the unit never gets another chance to enter play is thus counted as a KP for the enemy... but it would kinda leave alot of things open for debate if this were taken to the extreme and said nothing off table is considered alive..although if it has NEVER been placed on table, to me its never alive/existing in the battle field..

I've yet to see a Hive Tyrant that is alive. Unless you're using a gerbil or lizard as your Hive Tyrant, this rule won't have much of an effect at all by RAW.

If a state isn't defined in the rules, it will remain a grey area until further clarification is provided. Even when a model is wounded and removed from the board it may be 'alive'. We do not have enough information. Personally, I define something alive and affecting the battle to be on the board, so I voted no.

That is a specific situation that creates a "as counts as" result that would have no bearing on the being in reserves until that situation occurs. Up until that situation occurs (end of game still in reserves) the "counts as" status is not in affect.

Voted Yes, based on the precedent set by the Eldar Autarch (it's explicitly written in the codex, it's not even a FAQ).

InquisitorBob wrote:Voted Yes, based on the precedent set by the Eldar Autarch (it's explicitly written in the codex, it's not even a FAQ).

That's why it stacks, because the codex says so. The other codex's do not say so, so it doesn't stack.

Gwar! wrote:

InquisitorBob wrote:Voted Yes, based on the precedent set by the Eldar Autarch (it's explicitly written in the codex, it's not even a FAQ).

That's why it stacks, because the codex says so. The other codex's do not say so, so it doesn't stack.

Once again, someone officially owned by....Gwar!

Then why would the Lictor's pheromone trail need to explicitly state that it doesn't work unless the model is on the board?

BishopX wrote:Then why would the Lictor's pheromone trail need to explicitly state that it doesn't work unless the model is on the board?

Because people try to rules lawyer crap all the time making their armies OP? If they wanted it to work off the board wouldnt the explicitly say it is so?

TopC wrote:
Because people try to rules lawyer crap all the time making their armies OP? If they wanted it to work off the board wouldnt the explicitly say it is so?

I don't see why this has to be about lawyering and being OP. Within the context of the Nid codex, it makes sense that the HT reserve bonus would work in reserves because of the comparison with the phermone trail rule for the lictors. If they had used the same language for the HT as the lictor, there would be no issue. The HT would have to be on the board to generate the bonus. That covers being in reserve and being a casualty. The fact they chose to use the undefined phrase "whist alive" is what leads people to believe it must work differently than how it works for the lictor. It's the comparison to the reserve bonus rules of other armies like IG and Eldar, that calls the HT bonus into question. As pointed out in other discussion, we just don't know the intent of the different wording. It might be simply that GW never thought anyone would put a juggernaut like a tyrant in reserves.

TopC wrote:

BishopX wrote:Then why would the Lictor's pheromone trail need to explicitly state that it doesn't work unless the model is on the board?

Because people try to rules lawyer crap all the time making their armies OP? If they wanted it to work off the board wouldnt the explicitly say it is so?

Also it could be because the deathleaper can return to reserves ... just a thought i know its not likely for GW to thiking ahead.

TopC wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

InquisitorBob wrote:Voted Yes, based on the precedent set by the Eldar Autarch (it's explicitly written in the codex, it's not even a FAQ).

That's why it stacks, because the codex says so. The other codex's do not say so, so it doesn't stack.

Once again, someone officially owned by....Gwar!

Except, Gwar forgot what we were discussing and talked about something entirely different, Most people are accepting that they don't stack, it's about whether it works from reserves in this case.

Tri wrote: Also it could be because the deathleaper can return to reserves ... just a thought i know its ot likely GW thiking ahead.

I thought that was a pretty good answer. It makes sense. But the rule for the deathleaper that let's him go back into reserves is called "where'd it go" (and the lictor doesn't get it).

I voted yes and I have not seen a good argument yet why the rule should not work while the Tyrant is in reserve. As a counter argument against the INAT FAQ should a Space Marine army receive the benefits from a special character such as Vulkan if he starts the game in reserve or are the benefits always manifested throughout the entire game? Everyone I know who plays Vulkan Marines assume that the benefits are always in effect throughout the game.

You are paying a lot of points to field a Hive Tyrant and the benefit of Hive Commander is not gained if you start the game with the Tyrant held in reserve.

While I realize these two points are not by any means RAW but I think they are both worth considering. I was shocked by the ruling in the latest version of the INAT FAQ but I understand not every ruling is going to go your way.

G

Voted yes.

My dudes are alive from when the board is unfolded to when they take their last lascannon shot to the face. Even then the rules only stops working because they get bored and wander off.