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Trying to go for an all comers list with a balance of shooting and melee. Are they tournament worthy? C an C is welcome. Also if anything is incorrect please tell me.

1839 points

H.Q. 315

Draxuvius (archon) 315
Raider transport
Punisher
Tormentor helm
Combat drugs
Stats: WS6 BS6 S4 T3 W3 I7 A4 LD9 Sv: 5+/2++
Retinue: incubi (5)


Elites 483

Wyches (6) 161
Wych weapons
Succubus w/ agoniser
Raider

Wyches (6) 161
Wych weapons
Succubus w/ agoniser
Raider

Wyches (6) 161
Wych weapons
Succubus w/ agoniser
Raider


Troops 516

Raider squad(8) 129
Raider
1 dark lance

Raider squad(8) 129
Raider
1 dark lance

Raider squad(8) 129
Raider
1 dark lance

Raider squad(8) 129
Raider
1 dark lance

Fast attack 190

Reaver jetbikes (3) 95
2 blasters

Reaver jetbikes (3) 95
2 blasters


Heavy Support 360

Ravager 120
Disintegrators (3)

Ravager 120
Disintegrators (3)

Ravager 120
Disintegrators (3)


2000 points

H.Q. 240

Dracon (Selecius) 120
Punisher (power weapon and 1+S)
Combat drugs
Reaver jetbike (+1S,+1T,better armor save by 1)
Tormentor helm (+1 attack and splinter pistol)
WS5 BS5 S5 T4 I6 A3 LD9 4+save (armor)

Dracon (Revius) 120
Punisher (power weapon and 1+S)
Combat drugs
Reaver jetbike (+1S,+1T,better armor save by 1)
Tormentor helm (+1 attack and splinter pistol)
WS5 BS5 S5 T4 I6 A3 LD9 4+save (armor)


Elites 552

Wyches (7) 184
Combat drugs
Raider
2 wyches with blasters (s8 ap2 lance)
Succubus w agoniser (stats: WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 LD8 Sv6+/4++ (in cc)
Wych weapons (no member of a unit fighting the wyches in close combat counts as being equipped with an additional close combat weapon, all enemies Below S6(even if its modified to be S6) get there WS halved for attacks made against the wyches)
Wyches with blasters get only 1 attack when they charge, the rest get there normal 2 from splinter pistol CCW combo.

Wyches (7) 184
Combat drugs
Raider
2 wyches with blasters (s8 ap2 lance)
Succubus w agoniser (stats: WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 LD8 Sv6+/4++ (in cc)
Wych weapons

Wyches (7) 184
Combat drugs
Raider
2 wyches with blasters (s8 ap2 lance)
Succubus w agoniser (stats: WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 LD8 Sv6+/4++ (in cc)
Wych weapons


Troops 420

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Fast attack 372

Reaver Jetbike Squad (5) 186
Succubus w/ Tormentor helm and punisher (+1 attack and +1S)
2 with blasters
(follows dracon 1)

Reaver Jetbike Squad (5) 186
Succubus w/ Tormentor helm and punisher (+1 attack and +1S)
2 with blasters
(follows dracon 2)
Succubus stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T4 W1 I6 A3 LD8 4+save


Heavy Support 360

Ravager 120
3 disintegrators

Ravager 120
3 disintegrators

Ravager 120
3 disintegrators

Insanityphr33k wrote:Trying to go for an all comers list with a balance of shooting and melee. Are they tournament worthy? C an C is welcome. Also if anything is incorrect please tell me.

My gut read is - tournament worthy at a local level but I wouldn't want to try to make them work at any major events. I'll offer more explicit criticism below;

Wyches (6) 161
Wych weapons
Succubus w/ agoniser
Raider

No blasters on your Wyches? You give up 2 Str 3 non-power weapon attacks and gain 2 BS 4 Str 8 AP 2 lance shots that will allow you to kill stuff prior to charging or allow you to threaten armor if you need to or to allow the Wyches to serve as a pseudo-gunboat if you don't want/need to assault.

Raider squad(8) 129
Raider
1 dark lance

I tend to advise 5-6 warriors in Raiders to either be the most affordable or to provide the optimal size to cost ratio in the squad. Since optimally these guys will be shooting their lances at armor or MCs I don't see the reason to spend the points on three extra bodies.

I think you should bring more then 4 troop selections. Raiders are quite fragile and our troops tend to survive via dint of numerical superiority rather then anything else. I would personally never field less then five (and really always 6) Troop slots at 1850.

Dracon (Selecius) 120
Punisher (power weapon and 1+S)
Combat drugs
Reaver jetbike (+1S,+1T,better armor save by 1)
Tormentor helm (+1 attack and splinter pistol)
WS5 BS5 S5 T4 I6 A3 LD9 4+save (armor)

Double RJB lords at 2000? That should be a lot of fun though I think it's a dangerous point sink. Also, since the RJB squads are not a retinue and since you might want to split off your lord to assault more targets on occasion you should really probably invest in a Shadowfield for one of these guys - it will dramatically enhance his ability to assault certain units as well as prevent him from just being singled out and beat on in h2h. Looking at the rest of your list at 2000 - I don't think you have enough other threats to make your opponent overlook the two really expensive and fragile RJB squads - I would expect them to eat a lot of initial fire every game.

Wyches (7) 184
Combat drugs
Raider
2 wyches with blasters (s8 ap2 lance)
Succubus w agoniser (stats: WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 LD8 Sv6+/4++ (in cc)

With your Wych squads now at 7 and your Raider squads now at 5 it doesn't look like you have a clear idea on what you feel is the optimal number for each squad. Let me say - whichever number works for you at 1850 will work for you at 2000 and vice versa. Figuring out your own personal Wych optimum number takes some time but you should figure out what it is and stick with it. More or less the same goes for Raider Squads.

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

I knew the expense of double RJB lords would be biting you somewhere. I cannot stress enough how poor of an idea I believe it is to field only 4 Troop choices at 2000 points - *especially* with DE. Our troop options are amazing - use them.

Ravager 120
3 disintegrators

At 2000 points it is my opinion you need more lances then you are currently fielding. I'd change a Ravager over to a triple lance to compensate (or bring more troops and Raiders).

well i guess i had more flaws then i thought.

either way i will be playtesting the 2000 point army vs some orks on friday and i'll see how it goes. I'll probably be putting up a batrep for it, since the ork player is alot more experienced then i am, and i am playing with a new army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i assume i should keep the raider squads at 5 people, but add in 2 more squads?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also i thought the rjb lords were rather cheap, i mean theres 2 but there both 120? i was going to turbo boost them and the rjb squads with them to give them that 4+ invuln while the ravagers stayed back and shoot my friends horde of shoota boys, the wyches would go for ghazzy and the mega nobs, and the lances would hit any armor thats there, which is a killa kan squad(or 2) and a battle wagon. All of this is based off of what my friend currently fields at 2k.

Insanityphr33k wrote:i assume i should keep the raider squads at 5 people, but add in 2 more squads?

If you're going with mini sniper squads I do feel 5 is an appropriate number, and yes, as noted I think you should field more troops.

also i thought the rjb lords were rather cheap, i mean theres 2 but there both 120?

Since you need a unit of RJB to travel with their cost is part and parcel of the cost to field a RJB Lord - therefore RJB Lords are expensive since at the 300+ points you're paying you could field 2-3 additional troop choices and give yourself more scoring units as well as more targets for your opponent to worry about.

i was going to turbo boost them and the rjb squads with them to give them that 4+ invuln

Turbo boost will grant the bikes a 3+ cover save (which is quite different from a 4+ invulnerable) Turbo-boosting round 1 is a very good opening gambit with h2h themed RJB squads.

Listen to the man. Ignore him and you might get out of bed one morning to find your dark eldar camping the edge of your bed , wrathfully waiting for you to step down and impale yourself on their spiky bits.

A couple of thoughts to add to what Thor665 mentioned already.

I am a big Wych Cult fan and so my thoughts on your wych squads are purely from my experience when dealing with squad size and use. I think you got the basics down on the wyches but a little more tweeking can make it better so take this as a suggestion.

When you have multiple units of wyches (2 or 3) you can afford to use less in the squad count than you would if you only had 1 squad. I would also recommend you keep them in even numbers as there is no advantage for it being an odd size. 7 wyches react the same as 6, if you lose 3 wyches from either you are still at 50% and if you lose 4 wyches in either then they are both under 50%. Same goes with taking a morale check, if you lose 2 wyches in combat with either squad size you still have to test for morale – this only changes if you compare 7 wyches to a squad of 8.

If you take a look at the wych you would be dropping so you can go from 7 to 6 you have to consider that the 2 attacks (3 on the charge) “hand slaps” missing is not going to suddenly render them useless nor are they going to push a lot of combats into your favor (they are just hand slaps). So yah, use 8+ wyches in a squad if they are working alone (with an IC) but when you got 3 wych squads in the list you can afford to drop them all down to 6 on the premise that the wyches are not going to be assaulting alone or unsupported (which even at 7 the wyches were going to need support anyway).

I hope you get the feeling that 7 wyches is not some uber unit that can be thrown into any assault and expect instant success – wyches rely on strong charge and a healthy amount of agoniser kills to ensure the combat resolution goes in their favor but not to the extent that you kill them off on the charge or kill them from the “no retreat” rule. As Thor665 has mentioned in his tacticas, you want to maim your target enough that you win combat but still be able carry the assault into the opponents turn where you hope to finish them off. Where I have come to realize in this careful orchestration (or art) of carrying the fight into the opponent’s round with wyches is that it’s not the amount of wyches in the squad that wins a fight but the number of agonisers. If the number of agonisers is going to be a constant (I always work them in pairs) then the remaining wyches in the 2 squads is the control factor. When I started to test the different squad sizes I realized that switching from 8 wyches (like I did in 4th edition) to a squad of 6 really didn’t see a difference in the number of marines killed. Why pay for the extra wyches if the return of killed marines to the point cost of wyches didn’t matter?

So how do we influence the efficiency of multiple 6 wych squads? Working them in pairs or more and get some blaster shots off before the charge. The blasters are extremely efficient in killing marines before the charge and the output (the cost of the wych and blaster) are practically paid for if you killed the marine. Another thought that you might want to keep in mind is that the wyches are not your scoring units so you can afford to use them aggressively. With the blasters the wyches become more 3 dimensional now that they have a presence in the shooting phase as they can take on and kill just about anything now with legs due to the combination of blasters and agonisers. Even during the closing turns those wyches with the blasters are going to be very handy when you need that pesky rhino or wave serpent to die quickly. I am not suggesting you use the blasters to hunt tanks – priority is to kill things with legs and when there is nothing left with legs on the board then you now have a unit that can pop armor efficiently.

My only other recommendation is the addition of plasma grenades – I noticed that they are not considered much in this forum but if you consider that your turning your wonderful initiative of 6 down to “1” when you assault through, out or into cover it becomes a crime and makes the wyches cry. Since you get a discount on plasma grenades and for wyches it is almost a “gimmie” and no reason not to take them and if you cut your squad down to 6 as I recommend the cost is really not a factor. Also, if you really do go down to 6 wyches then ensuring you strike first becomes even more important in curbing the amount of attacks that would be striking back. Yes, I know they have a 4+ save in close combat and some of them will survive the initial attack but unless you have 8 or 10 wyches in the squad I wouldn’t take that risk that you’ll have enough wyches to win a fight, they are not Incubi you know! (kill first, let them try to hit you second).

Another item that is purely optional is the goblet of spite. I would consider it on either the Reaver Jetbike Succubus or one of the wych squads succubus. For its points and its ability to let the entire squad use its power (as well as any IC that might be in base contact with the model carrying it) there really is no downside to its inclusion. Looking at your list, I’d give it to a Reaver Jetbike Succubus as they need any help they can get and if either of the Dracons are in base contact with it they too get the benefit.

Last item, plasma for the Reaver Succubi is a cheap upgrade – anything that can help this squad get its attacks through is going to help them stay alive. Remember, the squad cannot get plasma for themselves so if they taking any kind of difficult terrain test they will be striking at Initiative “1”.

Hope this gives you some insight and any points saved from changes should be pumped into "Troop" choices to beef them up but whatever. My general thought is if you are going to "min/max" your troop choices then you better spam them because they are hecka fragile and you need them to win.

After considering what you all said, i have made another army that has topped out to 1788 points. and i am planning on moving it to 2k. However im not sure to what to add.
i was thinking about putting a succubus back in the reaver squads, with there tormentor helm and punisher. I'm also not sure if i should add night shields to any of the raiders/ravagers, or maybe a horror fex. and maybe give the raider squads a blaster?


anyway here it is


H.Q. 240

Dracon (Selecius) 120
Punisher (power weapon and 1+S)
Combat drugs
Reaver jetbike (+1S, +1T,better armor save by 1)
Tormentor helm (+1 attack and splinter pistol)
WS5 BS5 S5 T4 I6 A3 LD9 4+save (armor)

Dracon (Revius) 120
Punisher (power weapon and 1+S)
Combat drugs
Reaver jetbike (+1S, +1T,better armor save by 1)
Tormentor helm (+1 attack and splinter pistol)
WS5 BS5 S5 T4 I6 A3 LD9 4+save (armor)


Elites 318

Wyches (6) 159
Combat drugs
Raider
2 wyches with blasters (s8 ap2 lance)
Succubus w agoniser (stats: WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 LD8 Sv6+/4++ (in cc)
Wych weapons

Wyches (6) 159
Combat drugs
Raider
2 wyches with blasters (s8 ap2 lance)
Succubus w agoniser (stats: WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 LD8 Sv6+/4++ (in cc)
Wych weapons


Troops 630

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)

Raider squad (5) 105
1 dark lance
Raider (with 1 dark lance)


Fast attack 240

Reaver Jetbike Squad (4) 120
2 with blasters


Reaver Jetbike Squad (4) 120
2 with blasters


Heavy Support 360

Ravager 120
3 disintegrators

Ravager 120
3 disintegrators

Ravager 120
3 disintegrators