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I have been re-reading the Marine Codex and it occurs to me that there is nothing more overall good than a tac squad. I recently heard from my bro that I can borrow his figs, so I may have many more basic bolter guys than I would have before. I was thinking of putting them all in a army that is purely 10-man tac squads (so you can get the free flamer and missile), has anyone tried this?

Well, speculatively, in smaller scale games (say, 1750pts or less) they'd be a massive point suck. 1,020pts for that, my friend, with just the 170pts standard marine squad. As you can see, in 1500pts you'd have no room for more than an HQ and say a tank or elites choice. So, I'd recommend compromising on four. You really don't need any more in an SM list.. I mean; combat squading. 'Nuff said. But better still is scouts with camo cloaks, sniper rifle's and a ML. one or two 5 man squads placed in cover with your objective means they'll usually be benefitting from a 3+ cover save, 2+ if they go to ground. I've found they're really hard to kill, and a tac squad or two to roam out for objectives are really useful. But overall, if you took a maxed out tac squad army, you'd have the bones of the body but no muscle. They'd be out manoevoured, outgunned, outtanked and overpowered. Tac squads work best in combination with other parts of the codex, keep that in mind. Variaty is usually the best plan!

I tend to disagree. Assume 1500 pt game: If you have 6 Tact squads with Rhinos, Flamers and a free heavy, that is 1200 points.

With the 300 left over you can get an HQ and something to support it, whether that is a Jumppack HQ and some Assault marines, or a captain with command squad and razorback, even some sternguard with a transport....

If the enemy kills off the one expesive unit you have, they still have to deal with 60 marines in transports.

I think at that level you can overwhelm some folks you normally wouldn't be able to. I'm sure there are some builds that would give you plenty of trouble, but on the average, I've seen something like this work pretty well.

scouts with snip guns and cloaks cost more than a basic marine though. Marines just power on out the middle like a blitzing D in a superbowl I was thinking, don't even have to worry about positioning so much as advance, fire your Pilum, and charge like a nice little wad of roman legionaires. That's the thought I was making here in my head. Thanks for the repondey though, but I dont think on the same points level as you do.. 1750 is a stretch to me, think more like 1000 ish and all of a sudden every special character in every codex (except marines as always) gets kind of left out of the list when the list is reduced to a 'cut down' thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
look at this as an example of what i'm trying to rationalize here though:

tac+rhino
tac+rhino
tac
tac
library
+ some other hitter at 1000 pts. just to round it out. 4 tac squads at 1000 is pretty awesome at least where i'm from. I don't even know about the rhinos, except I like mobile terrain idea, so if I leave them out too thats 5 tacs. 5x170+100=still a couple of points left over but where i'm standing, I think an entire army of tactical marines is just so awesomely flexible, tough, and hard hitting, I just gotta make the points work.

Guitardian wrote:I have been re-reading the Marine Codex and it occurs to me that there is nothing more overall good than a tac squad.

Sternguard.

I'll look into that, but points-for power are they that good, or is it just a bad investment of a pot of white paint?

Never played sm, not gonna. if i did id be black templars so i still wouldnt know.

eldarbgamer13 wrote:Never played sm, not gonna. if i did id be black templars so i still wouldnt know.

thanks... that absolutely clarifies things for the OP

Guitardian wrote:I'll look into that, but points-for power are they that good, or is it just a bad investment of a pot of white paint?

They are MUCH better offensively. They have small time heavy bolters, and are decent against pretty much everything.... That's without upgrades. With upgrades they can be one of the more powerful shooty elements of any space marine army.

The problem is of course, the points, and the fact that they are just as fragile as a regular marine... which is to say... not very.

Tac squads can be good, but you have to remember that just taking them will leave you weak for other things. Variety is what makes the space marine codex strong, and doing one suite is really going to hurt you down the road when you start playing.

From the way my friend uses his marines a whole tac squad army with bolters wouldnt be bad, as long as you have a dreadnought or something for carnifexes or daemons.

I thought that was what all the free missile launchers were for. I'm curious about sternguard though for that last addition, just means I have to paint some white heads. Worry about their survivability. achhh so many questions trying to make my 5th ed marine army after not playing them for years.

eldarbgamer13 wrote:Never played sm, not gonna. if i did id be black templars so i still wouldnt know.

Troll much there kid?


Anyway on the actual topic, I have a player at my local store that plays a very strict imperial fists army. 5 or 6 tactical squads in rhinos and a command squad in a razorback. The only variation I've seen him have is a dreadnought or two thrown in. He tends to lose... the majority of his games. My local area played 1750/1850 so his tactical spam tends to work out badly when he plays most opponents. With only 6 missile launchers, his anti tank is not even remotely reliable or effective.

I would stick to 4 tac squads in rhinos MAX for under 2k if you absolutely felt inclined too. I'

I have to agree take 3-4 tac squads anymore is a waste imo. As its a waste of points as anything with a AV 14 will run the table if thats all you bring and my god have mercy on you if you fight a heavy Monolith list. And any fast list is gonna give you a run for your money that has strong CC potential Tac Marines aren't exactly the masters of melee prowess (invest in PF's for tac squads it's a life saver).

Here's my take on this. With Combat Squads to spread yourself out, and Rhinos/Razorbacks to protect them, why would you ever need more than 2-3 squads in a game? 1/3 of missions don't require troops to win at all, another 1/3 only require one troop to win.

Well, Tactical units are the backbone of any SM army.
But an army needs variety and so 2 or 3 Tactical units are sufficient; 3 in larger games.
Fill the rest with Elite and HS units.

i think a tactical army could work really well if you change up the heavy weapons so that you have a good anti-tank, anti hoard, etc.

like maybe two tacs with lascannon and flamer, so thats four combat squads that provide a long range and short range power.
then a tac with a plasma cannon, or a few with meltas, i dunno i don't play space marines, i play IG and orks. but if you switch up the units gear you may be able to make a formative space marine armies that can fight almost anything on the field.

does that make sense. i don't know how many you could field in 1500, but im sure a good number.

eldarbgamer13 wrote:Never played sm, not gonna. if i did id be black templars so i still wouldnt know.

OP:

Tactical Squads really are quite good. 60 of them would most likely be a serious problem for any army, particularly if you gave them powerfists and a good mix of heavy and special weapons. And put them in Transports, obviously. A captain and assault-oriented command squad in a Razorback would compliment this type of list pretty nicely.

You guys are awesome. Now does anyone have a heavy weapon besides a missile launcher I can borrow? damn game workshop and their tomfoolery of packaging!

I played my old Iron Warriors CSM army that way. 4 Troops, 2 Devastators, 40 marines total with lots of bolters and heavies with a big hitting Daemon prince for CA and
Vindi/Basilisk(can't take it anymore, but normal marines have Thunderfires or whatever) and still had points to play with. I think INFANTRY heavy marines is completely
viable, just not TAC. Sternguard and devastators are a really effective use of your marines as well and still play on that theme. You could easily make this work, but i'm
in the majority that think it needs some diversity, if only a little.

Guitardian wrote:You guys are awesome. Now does anyone have a heavy weapon besides a missile launcher I can borrow? damn game workshop and their tomfoolery of packaging!

Just get a Devastator Box.

They have 2 of everything, if I recall correctly.

I'd to 2 Rockets, 2 Lascannons and 2 Plasma Cannons personally.

Sadly they dont. Only one MM from what I can tell.
Anyway, if you wanna play for fun, then sure why not try 60 Tacticals, if you wanna play competitive then 20 is enough or 30 if you are playing +1500pts

Multi Meltas on Tactical Squads is ill-advised in the first place, IMHO.

Better on Dreads and LOTD.

LotD should never see anything but the shelf. And a MM is not illadviced on a Tac squad.

A buddy of mine actually runs an all-tac squad army in the 1500-1750 range and it is ****ing annoying at times. It is hard to deal with that many scoring units of Marines with mobility and meltas. I realize that many people love the bigger and sexier Marine units but the basic Tac marine is a force to be reckoned with, especially in numbers.

tedurur wrote:LotD should never see anything but the shelf. And a MM is not illadviced on a Tac squad.

At 24 inches, it's an AP1 Missile Launcher.

My friends that use them never get a 2d6 armor pen roll against me. Being able to move and shoot is key with an MM, that's all I'm saying.

6 Tactical Squads, you say? Madness!

Seriously, you'd have a LOT of resilience - 60 Marines is tough to chew through - but a lack of offensive power - bolters can be less than effective against certain targets.

I think Space Marine lists benefit from more diversity than this, but it does have merit just in staying power. It would also do very well against foot hordes.

I would definitely diversify your weapons choices. Plasma Cannons, Lascannons, Plasmaguns, and Meltaguns everywhere; you're not spending points on supporting equipment, you need to spend the points to get the premier infantry based weapons and try to get some shooting superiority at range to cover your special weapon squad advance or blockade.

Monster Rain wrote:

tedurur wrote:LotD should never see anything but the shelf. And a MM is not illadviced on a Tac squad.

At 24 inches, it's an AP1 Missile Launcher.

My friends that use them never get a 2d6 armor pen roll against me. Being able to move and shoot is key with an MM, that's all I'm saying.

The popular (and effective from my experience) tactic is to drop pod a TAC squad onto an objective and just let it sit there for the rest of the game. Melta's are FEARED by tank commanders and that 12" circle of death isn't something that can be taken lightly.

It'd still be child's play to bum rush the position, pop smoke, and even if the transport got busted let the troops inside dash the last few inches, but that's another problem entirely


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GeneralRetreat wrote:

I would definitely diversify your weapons choices. Plasma Cannons, Lascannons, Plasmaguns, and Meltaguns everywhere; you're not spending points on supporting equipment, you need to spend the points to get the premier infantry based weapons and try to get some shooting superiority at range to cover your special weapon squad advance or blockade.

Great advice

I really like this idea.

If I was playing 1750...

5 tacs-Rhino-Some powerfists. lascannons, meltas etc
about -1150 depending on stuff

3 vindicators--375--gotta have the siege shield cause its just so cool!

Then you have 1525--leaving 225 for some evil HQ like MOtF to walk behind the vindi's and repair them, and something unpredictable like 5 scouts in a storm or something like that....

The vindi's would keep fire off your rhinos so you can get where you want to go and and outflanking speeder carrying a powerfist would be excellent as well.

Of course you'd have to mess with tac squad equipment to get it all to fit right but, sounds fun.

Now to buy more rhinos...

Alright alright, let's see what we can hash up here at 1750 points.


HQ: Master of the forge
PW
115

Troops

x2 Fortress squads
MM, flamer, Sarge with PF
Rhino
230

x2 Siege squads
LC, Plasma Gun
Razorback
230

Support squad
MM, flamer
Rhino
205

Scout squad (5)
Cloaks, sniper rifles, missile launcher.
100
Heavy support:
3x Vindicator with Siege Shields 130


That puts you at 1750 exactly. It seems a little rough around the edges, and realistically you're just relying on your vindicators to do damage while your TACs provide support. But if you can set up a defensive position with your vindis in cover then woe betide whoever tries to rush you.


I would like the record to show that I still think this is a sub-par idea


and that I will be running a list like this as soon as i can find the troops just to see what it's like :p

Shrike78 wrote:
It'd still be child's play to bum rush the position, pop smoke, and even if the transport got busted let the troops inside dash the last few inches, but that's another problem entirely

Yep, that's pretty much what happens! A battlewagon with a KFF is more than willing to take that risk.

You're much better off dealing with these problems at 36 inches away before you're trying to scramble when they're within 12. This may be a personal preference, but these tactics have served me pretty well.