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If there is a piece of terrain that is effectivelly a LOS breaking wall, and you declare tank shock, do you go through the wall, stop at the wall, or does your skimmer "fly" over the wall and continue tank shocking?

was under the impression that you travelled flat on the ground

It depends entirely on how you interpret "straight line"

Strictly - then tankshocks only on *perfectly* level surfaces are allowed

Most people- the skimmer simply ignores any obstacle it can normally pass over.

well you dont fly over terrain as a skimmer during tank shock, you have to roll the DT for it, hence where i got the impression that its a straight line traveling just off the ground.

But what happens if you allow the skimmer to fly and it encounters a situation where it flys over enemy models, but wouldnt actually have the physical ability to pass through them due to terrain, would these models become tank shocked as well?

You tank shock any enemy non-vehicle unit you meet along the way.

Yes, the skimmer tank can 'roller coaster' during tank shock.

repeating previous question for answer

But what happens if you allow the skimmer to fly and it encounters a situation where it flys over enemy models, but wouldnt actually have the physical ability to pass through them due to terrain, would these models become tank shocked as well?

meaning units are in a position, 'nook' in the wall that the skimmer would in no way be able to fit/pass through the enemy

That question makes no sense
Skimmers are able to fly over all terrain as part of their move

a tank shock is a move

the enemy in the wall is tank shocked, and the skimmer carries on (assuming no successful DoG, etc)

nosferatu1001 wrote:That question makes no sense
Skimmers are able to fly over all terrain as part of their move

a tank shock is a move

the enemy in the wall is tank shocked, and the skimmer carries on (assuming no successful DoG, etc)

becuase it says any enemy models tthe vehicle would pass through are tank shocked. If the vehicle model cannot physically go through the models due to the terrain (it was essentially a mtn/large hill w/ a cave into the side of it which is where the units in question being attempted to be tank shocked were located.

So once again, if a vehicle is on the farside of a mtn, in a cave how exactly do they get tank shocked? or can they?

You have two issues: a skimmer may go over any terrain, and any unit in the way is tank shocked.

So what you are struggling with is that it appears that the skimmer would have to go over the terrain, which would simultaneously "prevent" it from tank shocking units within the terrain.

Unfortunately nothing says this is what happens - the skimmer avoids the terrain while at the same time tank shockinmg the unit.

Otherwise only tanks shocks on entirely flat, level surfaces work, due to the annoying phrase "straight line"

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have two issues: a skimmer may go over any terrain, and any unit in the way is tank shocked.

So what you are struggling with is that it appears that the skimmer would have to go over the terrain, which would simultaneously "prevent" it from tank shocking units within the terrain.

Unfortunately nothing says this is what happens - the skimmer avoids the terrain while at the same time tank shockinmg the unit.

Otherwise only tanks shocks on entirely flat, level surfaces work, due to the annoying phrase "straight line"

I just get stuck on the part that describes tank shock where is specifies that the tank passes through a unit, while if the unit is unable to be passed through due to the terrain they should not be able to be tank shocked...

your in, not just in the terrain, but i mean LITERALLY inside the terrain, you can only be seen from one particular view, which is them attempting to walk inside the terrain with you (a cave)

now the vehicle is on the side of the terrain which does not have any way to view you, nor reach you, or could the vehicle even fit inside the given opening, how then can it tank shock you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have two issues: a skimmer may go over any terrain, and any unit in the way is tank shocked.

So what you are struggling with is that it appears that the skimmer would have to go over the terrain, which would simultaneously "prevent" it from tank shocking units within the terrain.

Unfortunately nothing says this is what happens - the skimmer avoids the terrain while at the same time tank shockinmg the unit.

Otherwise only tanks shocks on entirely flat, level surfaces work, due to the annoying phrase "straight line"

my problem isnt necessarily the flying of the skimmer over the terrain, as long as its taking DT for it. but this is a seperate issue from the main one im having problems with...


problem is the passing through a unit, if the vehicle has no ability to pass through said unit hiding literally inside a terrain piece how then can the be tank shocked?

Because the rules have a gap in logic and sense?

The rules say you get tankshocked for passing through the unit - and at the same time you are also flying ove rthe top of the unit because that is how a skimmer moves.

And why would the skimmer take DT tests if it is flying OVER the terrain?

If you don't like it - house rule it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because the rules have a gap in logic and sense?

The rules say you get tankshocked for passing through the unit - and at the same time you are also flying ove rthe top of the unit because that is how a skimmer moves.

And why would the skimmer take DT tests if it is flying OVER the terrain?

If you don't like it - house rule it.

STOP ANSWERING THIS QUESTION REPEATEDLY! BECAUSE ITS NOT THE QUESTION IM ASKING! I DONT GIVE 2 ***** ABOUT THIS ANSWER!

QUESTION THAT NEEDS ANSWER IS AS FOLLOWS!, ANY OTHER REPLY GIVING AN ANSWER OTHER THAN TO THIS QUESTION IS A TROLL!


Scenario!


Tank here X


MTN here XXXXXXXXXXXX

Cave this side Y

Troops are inside the cave



NOW, I DONT CARE HOW THE SKIMMER MOVES, there is no physical way for the skimmer to pass OVER the unit, it may pass over the mtn that they are inside, but the skimmer is not directly passing OVER the unit, but over terrain which i could case less about. I want to know how the units inside the cave would be affected if at all?

maybe your not understanding my question, can you tank shock someone in a bunker?

TopC wrote:my problem isnt necessarily the flying of the skimmer over the terrain, as long as its taking DT for it.

Skimmers only take DT tests if they begin or end their move in DT. Flying over DT does not trigger a test.

Dracos wrote:

TopC wrote:my problem isnt necessarily the flying of the skimmer over the terrain, as long as its taking DT for it.

Skimmers only take DT tests if they begin or end their move in DT. Flying over DT does not trigger a test.

yea and when you make a normal move w/ a skimmer, and fly over the enemy you dont cause a tank shock.

No, you cannot Tankshock someone in a bunker! That's why the Emperor created bunkers, so that his soft pudgies would a place to keep form getting runover.

Easy. I may have an answer to your question. The rule states you will tank shock any unit you move 'Through.' 'Through,' being the operative term here. If they are in cave in a mountain and you fly over the mountain, you clearly did not move through the unit. Therefore they are not tank-shocked.

Please remember that 40K may look like there are three dimensions, but really it only uses two for most things and occasionally approximates a third. This saves us, the players, from having to do trigonometry (Thank you GW). Anyone who played the original Doom on PC should know what I mean.

Whether, you could actually do a tank shock against a unit on the other side of the hill is another story and would based on the lay of the board. Since you could see the board and I can't, I assume you were well within your rights to tank shock.

jw7007 wrote:No, you cannot Tankshock someone in a bunker! That's why the Emperor created bunkers, so that his soft pudgies would a place to keep form getting runover.

Easy. I may have an answer to your question. The rule states you will tank shock any unit you move 'Through.' 'Through,' being the operative term here. If they are in cave in a mountain and you fly over the mountain, you clearly did not move through the unit. Therefore they are not tank-shocked.

Please remember that 40K may look like there are three dimensions, but really it only uses two for most things and occasionally approximates a third. This saves us, the players, from having to do trigonometry (Thank you GW). Anyone who played the original Doom on PC should know what I mean.

Whether, you could actually do a tank shock against a unit on the other side of the hill is another story and would based on the lay of the board. Since you could see the board and I can't, I assume you were well within your rights to tank shock.

Thank you for being the first to answer the question

And i said no to the tank shock, because he couldnt pass through my guys.

Now we can get down to the secondary question, if a unit is in terrain, and a skimmer tries to tank shock them. To pass through said unit you would have to move through the terrain, thus indicated a DT test?

TopC - can you perhaps stop nerd raging? I have, actualy, answered your question. Twice now.

The unit, in the cave, gets tankshocked. Got it? they get tankshocked. At the same time that Skimmer counts as moving *over* the terrain, so it doesnt take DT test.

One more time: the uniot gets tank shocked as the skimmer has moved OVER THE UNIT. Has that sunk in yet? One more time needed, or will you scream "troll!" again?

I would suggest not throwing the "troll" thing around, mmkay?

Also - given that bunkers are Vehicles, no, you cannot tank shock a unit inside a bunker. Howeve that is an entirely DIFFERENT question to the one you keep screaming about.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TopC - can you perhaps stop nerd raging? I have, actualy, answered your question. Twice now.

The unit, in the cave, gets tankshocked. Got it? they get tankshocked. At the same time that Skimmer counts as moving *over* the terrain, so it doesnt take DT test.

One more time: the uniot gets tank shocked as the skimmer has moved OVER THE UNIT. Has that sunk in yet? One more time needed, or will you scream "troll!" again?

I would suggest not throwing the "troll" thing around, mmkay?

Also - given that bunkers are Vehicles, no, you cannot tank shock a unit inside a bunker. Howeve that is an entirely DIFFERENT question to the one you keep screaming about.

The cave situation: the vehicle will never even have LoS to the units, how can they possibly be tank shocked?

Seriously, unless you can give me a page reference that counters where tank shock specifically states that the vehicle must pass through the unit, i'm going to have to ask you to please stop trolling, or ill kindly ask a mod to ask you to stop. Your giving opinions, not answers.

my reference,
Page 68, Tank shock, paragraph 1.

I'm sorry, please find where LOS is a requirement in the tank shock rules? You're just full of irrlevancies today.

I like how you ignored that your bunnker change in question was just that...a change in question, totally different to the initial one.

AS has been explained: tank shock requires you to move in a completely straight line. That means you cannot make ANY changes of elevation EVER. Got that?

So, you have two choices: play it strictly, in which case tank shocks never function, or play it the way GW seem to think, which is that a straight line in 2D is all that is required. (btw - this was in the first answer. way to ignore it)

In that case your 2D line of travel has passed through the position of the unit, again in 2D, and you have thereofre passed *through* the unit.

Got that now? sheesh.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I'm sorry, please find where LOS is a requirement in the tank shock rules? You're just full of irrlevancies today.

I like how you ignored that your bunnker change in question was just that...a change in question, totally different to the initial one.

AS has been explained: tank shock requires you to move in a completely straight line. That means you cannot make ANY changes of elevation EVER. Got that?

So, you have two choices: play it strictly, in which case tank shocks never function, or play it the way GW seem to think, which is that a straight line in 2D is all that is required. (btw - this was in the first answer. way to ignore it)

In that case your 2D line of travel has passed through the position of the unit, again in 2D, and you have thereofre passed *through* the unit.

Got that now? sheesh.

No your answer once again does not apply.

Even if you lay a 2d line from start to end point, at no point would said line cause the vehicles path to pass THROUGH the unit, thus why i would like a page reference for your stand point. If you cannot give one, and you respond again i'm going to be forced to follow through w/ my previous statement about calling a mod over because all your doing is undermining the purpose of this thread and threatening to get it locked before a BRB reference can be found to the situation. So please either stop trolling, start posting a page reference for your stand point, or i'll be forced to ask a mod to stop you.

Why would it not pass through the unit? Don't you get what a 2D line means in this situation?

Tank >--------------Unit------------->End Tank position

This is a top down view, in 2D. By definition, once you exclude 3D, any line that passes "over the top" of the unit must pass through the unit - as there is no "over"

And, further, I have explained why a page reference is futile - it is basic maths. Tank shock requires you move in a straight line. Now, if this is a 3D line, then you're right - it would not pass "through" the unit, but over. However no tank shock that did not take place along a perfectly flat plane would be disallowed - which is clearly nonsense.

So you are forced to conclude it means you have to go in a striaght line only considered in 2 dimensions. Which resulots in the situation that something that passes "over" is actually passing through.

Finally, just to point out - the only one who will get the thread locked is yourself, as you have contnually insulted and berated other posters, while posting incoherent responses. If you wish to call a mod, please do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The unit, in the cave, gets tankshocked. Got it? they get tankshocked.

I don't see how. The Tank Shock rules require that the vehicle move into contact with the enemy unit. Simply moving over the unit doesn't trigger a Tank Shock.

Finishing it's Tank Shock movement over the unit (or under another interpretation, moving over the unit) simply causes models to move out of the way. But that action is triggered by the unit actually being successfully Tank Shocked, which requires the skimmer to move into contact with the unit. If the unit is in a piece of terrain that the skimmer can not enter as a part of its movement, no Tank Shock can occur.

At the same time that Skimmer counts as moving *over* the terrain, so it doesnt take DT test.

If you follow the interpretation that vehicles can move over terrain while Tank Shocking, despite the straight line requirement.



Meanwhile, both of you need to take a deep breath and get back to the question, rather than sniping at each other.

Here you go, i drew you a nice pretty picture for you to explain how tank shock can work in this situation.


http://yfrog.com/0fsrslyypp

and if its a straight line "THOUGH" the mountain that movement would be illegal as you cant travel through a wall.

also if you were to make a straight line THROUGH the wall, you would be moving THROUGH terrain incurring a DT test

You cant Move through something, and over something at the same time. its 1 or the other

nosferatu1001 wrote:Finally, just to point out - the only one who will get the thread locked is yourself,

It takes two to have an argument. Stick to the topic.

I'm sorry insan i just want the other posted to stick to question and give references, not just opinion.

TopC wrote:Here you go, i drew you a nice pretty picture for you to explain how tank shock can work in this situation.

http://yfrog.com/0fsrslyypp

For the layout as pictured, as nosferatu1001 has pointed out, there could technically be no tank shock, as the tank can not move in a straight line.

Most players allow for some variation of this... some ignore vertical height entirely, some allow tank shocking over shorter terrain but nothing large, some undoubtedly have a different way of playing it entirely.

However you play it, though, while the vehicle can, in this example, pass over the unit it can not move into contact with the unit. So no tank shock can occur.

insaniak wrote:

TopC wrote:Here you go, i drew you a nice pretty picture for you to explain how tank shock can work in this situation.

http://yfrog.com/0fsrslyypp

For the layout as pictured, as nosferatu1001 has pointed out, there could technically be no tank shock, as the tank can not move in a straight line.

Most players allow for some variation of this... some ignore vertical height entirely, some allow tank shocking over shorter terrain but nothing large, some undoubtedly have a different way of playing it entirely.

However you play it, though, while the vehicle can, in this example, pass over the unit it can not move into contact with the unit. So no tank shock can occur.

as per the reference i stated earlier correct?

This situation came up yesterday, but the guy had said something during my movement phase to a buddy that i over heard and i said he wouldnt be able to make that move as the reference i just gave..but he tried to argue that he could because skimmers fly and terrain didnt matter...to kill the argument i just killed the skimmer..but still wanted to get an answer incase it ever comes up again

Insaniak - however if you consider the tank to only be moving in 2D (due to the "straight line" issue) then it HAS moved "through" the unit, as the line of travel that tank shock requires you determine HAS moved through the unit.

In 3D the tank has moved *over*, but in 2D it has moved *through* - hence the duality i mentioned above. It has moved above the terrain, hence has not triggered a DT, but "counts as" (for lack of a better term) moving through the unit for tank shock purposes. Otherwise only moving on a flat surface will ever work ofr tank shock.

TopC - everything is opinion, I have explained why page refs arent required as this is an interpretation of rules and how they interact with language. Posting entirely in caps doesnt exactly help, does it?

Alright all,
Let's just simmer this down a notch okay.

2D/3D...meh

Straight Line...meh

Did any of us actually see the situation that TopC is talking about. I would wager a couple Nobs that we didn't. Depending on the board layout, the type of hill/bunker, and various elevations; it could be entirely to have LOS and move over the terrain in a straight line. You can tankshock troops on the other side, although there are only limited situations in which this would actually be plausible. If you will take the time, I will draw up a plausible and attach it in my next post.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - however if you consider the tank to only be moving in 2D (due to the "straight line" issue) then it HAS moved "through" the unit, as the line of travel that tank shock requires you determine HAS moved through the unit.

I don't consider the tank to be moving only in 2D, because the rules don't say to do so.

There is an arguable case for being able to change your height while moving (because otherwise no tank shock would ever be possible on anything other than a dead flat board) but that doesn't mean that the movement only occurs in 2D. It simply means that the tank moves in a line that is horizontally straight, with vertical variation not ignored but simply allowed.

And regardless, even if you consider the tank to have moved through the unit in 2D, it still hasn't moved into contact with the unit (you know this because it hasn't touched any models in the unit, which would be required for contact to occur) which is what triggers the tank shock effects.