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What beats what? say, would the mask overrule the lash whip or the lash whip overrule the banshee mask?

I think there has been a thread on this already. Lash whip wins (I think).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275931.page#1283338

The important thing to note is the lash whips only affect the models in base contact while the banshee mask helps the whole unit. Unless all the banshees get in the base contact, some of them will still get to go a I10.

alright, that clears things up alot. thanks

but if a unit is charged by banshees they suffer that test, right? squad numbers not mattering if the test is being created by number of models base-to-base, but by being called upon because it was being charged by banshees... wouldn't they both have effect? The banshees drop his init just because they scream all loud and he listens, meanwhile he drops theirs cuz of his evil lizard whip thing?

You're thinking war shout. That's the exarch power. It affects weapon skill, not initiative. The Banshee masks give howling banshees I10 on the turn they charge into assault.

Arschbombe wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275931.page#1283338

The important thing to note is the lash whips only affect the models in base contact while the banshee mask helps the whole unit. Unless all the banshees get in the base contact, some of them will still get to go a I10.

I think that thread is wrong,however. I believe the INAT FAQ says they cancel. Going off of RAW,I believe the Banshee Masks take precedent. Reason being,the Banshee Mask(if I remember correctly),states that the Banshees STRIKE at I:10 regardless of their actual initiative value. The Lash Whip counts the initiative value of the models in B2B as 1,but the mask says they strike at I:10 regardless. The Banshee Masks don't change the Banshee's actual initiative to 10. They don't get to use I:10 for Sweeping Advance rolls,for instance. The Lash Whip modifies their actual initiative,but the Banshee Mask modifies when they strike in the initiative order,not their actual initiative.

Banshee mask: "a model wearing a banshee mask has Initiative 10... [blah blah blah]"

Lash Whip: "...counts their Initiative value as 1... regardless of their actual Initiative value"

'Shee mask makes their initiative 10; doesn't say anything about striking at I10. Lash Whip counts their initiative as 1, regardless of whatever it really is.

Whip wins.

The Banshee Mask rule states:

"In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has initiative 10 and negates any initiative bonus conferred by cover and grenades."

The Lash whip rule states:

"Any enemy model in base contact with a tyranid with one or more lash whips counts their initiative as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual initiative value."

INAT says:

+TYR.83D.02 – Q: What happens if an enemy in close combat has an ability that replaces its Initiative with another value (such as with an Eldar Banshee Mask) and is in base contact with a Lash Whip wielding Tyranid?
A: For that phase, the two rules effectively cancel each other out (meaning the enemy model strikes at normal Initiative value unless also assaulting through cover, equipped with a Power fist, etc) [clarification].


I think the INAT ruling is wrong. The lash whip rule includes the phrase "regardless of actual initiative value." Their ruling on furious charge takes this into account. I'm not sure why they felt the banshee mask was a special case.

Sweeping assault always uses unmodified initiative.

Older codex. Outdated writing. The intention was clear though, that if a banshee charges she hits fast.

Arschbombe wrote:The Banshee Mask rule states:

"In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has initiative 10 and negates any initiative bonus conferred by cover and grenades."

The Lash whip rule states:

"Any enemy model in base contact with a tyranid with one or more lash whips counts their initiative as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual initiative value."

INAT says:

+TYR.83D.02 – Q: What happens if an enemy in close combat has an ability that replaces its Initiative with another value (such as with an Eldar Banshee Mask) and is in base contact with a Lash Whip wielding Tyranid?
A: For that phase, the two rules effectively cancel each other out (meaning the enemy model strikes at normal Initiative value unless also assaulting through cover, equipped with a Power fist, etc) [clarification].


I think the INAT ruling is wrong. The lash whip rule includes the phrase "regardless of actual initiative value." Their ruling on furious charge takes this into account. I'm not sure why they felt the banshee mask was a special case.

Sweeping assault always uses unmodified initiative.

Good to know. Looking at the RAW,I'd say you're correct and the Lash Whip wins out. The only thing that I can think of with the INAT is that they're maybe letting RAI take precedence over RAW.

Arschbombe wrote:The Banshee Mask rule states:

"In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has initiative 10 and negates any initiative bonus conferred by cover and grenades."

The Lash whip rule states:

"Any enemy model in base contact with a tyranid with one or more lash whips counts their initiative as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual initiative value."

INAT says:

+TYR.83D.02 – Q: What happens if an enemy in close combat has an ability that replaces its Initiative with another value (such as with an Eldar Banshee Mask) and is in base contact with a Lash Whip wielding Tyranid?
A: For that phase, the two rules effectively cancel each other out (meaning the enemy model strikes at normal Initiative value unless also assaulting through cover, equipped with a Power fist, etc) [clarification].


I think the INAT ruling is wrong. The lash whip rule includes the phrase "regardless of actual initiative value." Their ruling on furious charge takes this into account. I'm not sure why they felt the banshee mask was a special case.

Sweeping assault always uses unmodified initiative.

But with that ruling wouldn't the banshees sweep at initiative 10 because their iniative isn't having a modifer being applied to it but simply changed? I would never play it that way but with how you are ruling it that would be the case...

If you have changed your initiative you have modified it. Simples...

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you have changed your initiative you have modified it. Simples...

I agree totally so then the banshees is a modified value and the lashwhips don't say the change modified values do they? quote farther up says regardless of actual initiative value. Sorry I don't have a nid codex near by. I think canceling out is the easiest way to go about it.

Mengwai wrote:But with that ruling wouldn't the banshees sweep at initiative 10 because their iniative isn't having a modifer being applied to it but simply changed? I would never play it that way but with how you are ruling it that would be the case...

You always perform Sweeping Advances using the Initiative value printed in the model's stat line. It can never be anything else.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you have changed your initiative you have modified it. Simples...

I would generally dispute that, the rulebook defines a stat modifier in the following way:

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively, by adding to it (+1, +2, etc) or even multiplying it (x2, x3, etc)"

So I think, unless something specifically says it is or is not a modifier, then the default is, if it is a mathematic formula whereby the end result is dependent on the initial value, then it is a modifier, however, if it is simply replacing one number with another with no regard for what the original value was, then it is not a modifier.

It's very simple, the Lash Whip Wins.

Drunkspleen - except that it doesnt state that list is inclusive. IF it isnt inclusive then any alteration to a stat line is a modification.

This has the benefit of consistency as well, as it doesnt put the INit change into some odd category.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Drunkspleen - except that it doesnt state that list is inclusive. IF it isnt inclusive then any alteration to a stat line is a modification.

This has the benefit of consistency as well, as it doesnt put the INit change into some odd category.

You can't claim a list is exhaustive to deny something, but the rulebook indicates that these are two things that are modifiers, if there was further evidence elsewhere that other things such as replacement rules are modifiers (there isn't) then I couldn't cite this list to deny replacement effects being modifiers, but I can point to this list and say "it only shows 2 things as being modifiers, and nothing says that a replacement effect is a modifier (which is a specific game term so a dictionary definition is insufficient) so a replacement effect isn't a modifier".

Unless the list is written as an exhaustive list of everything to be considered a modifier, it isnt an exhaustive list and something that looks like a modifier, talks like a modifier probably IS a modifier.

You guys are falsely giving importance to the phase: 'regardless of their actual Initiative value'. The inclusion of that phrase does not change what the rule actually says, which is that a Lash Whip makes enemies in base contact count their Initiative value as 1.

The Banshee Mask makes the Banshees count as having Initiative 10 for the round...if the Banshee Mask rules also said 'regardless of the Banshee's actual Initiative value' would that change the meaning of the rule at all?

Your gut reaction may be yes, but the truth is, logic dictates no. The two rules do the exactly the same thing.



I'll try to give you another example to help make it a bit more clear. If a rule says:


A) Model 'X' always hits on a '2+' in close combat.


Compared with:


B) Model 'X' always hits on a '2+' in close combat, regardless of comparative weapon skills.


Does a model with rule 'A' actually behave any differently than a model with rule 'B' in the game? The answer is no. While the additional phrasing in 'B' provides further clarification of how the rule works, logically in the game, both rules work the same.

So with Lash Whips and Banshee Masks, both rules do the same thing, the inclusion of 'regardless of their actual Initiative value' in the Lash Whip rule does not logically change anything.

Ultimately this is a case of immovable object vs. irresistible force, which should be D6'd off every time it occurs, but since we're trying to steer away from any kind of 'random' ruling in the INAT, we're going with such situations effectively canceling each other out.


So just to be clear, as far as we're concerned regarding the INAT, on this matter RAW we believe it is clearly a case of 'irresistible force vs. immovable object'.

yakface wrote:
I'll try to give you another example to help make it a bit more clear. If a rule says:


A) Model 'X' always hits on a '2+' in close combat.


Compared with:


B) Model 'X' always hits on a '2+' in close combat, regardless of comparative weapon skills.


Does a model with rule 'A' actually behave any differently than a model with rule 'B' in the game? The answer is no. While the additional phrasing in 'B' provides further clarification of how the rule works, logically in the game, both rules work the same.

No, rule B implies it only works against models with a WS value .

Personally I would go lash whip over riding banshee mask simply because of the greater specificity. Banshee masks allow the unit to strike at I10, while lash whips effect the model. Giving precedence to lash whips introduces more depth to the game while having banshee masks negating lash whips lets you play rock paper scissors.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Unless the list is written as an exhaustive list of everything to be considered a modifier, it isnt an exhaustive list and something that looks like a modifier, talks like a modifier probably IS a modifier.

But just because a list isn't clearly said to be exhaustive doesn't mean you can substitute whatever you want into it and defend the point with "the list isn't exhaustive"

I'm not saying nothing else can be a modifier, but I'm saying for something else to be a modifier, it has to be said to be a modifier. Replacing one value with another isn't a modifier, it's a replacer.

yakface wrote:
So just to be clear, as far as we're concerned regarding the INAT, on this matter RAW we believe it is clearly a case of 'irresistible force vs. immovable object'.

The rules are different in their specificity. Banshee masks affects the entire unit while the lash whips are more specific, stating that they only affect those models in base contact. This means that some models in the banshee unit will still go at I10.

Why is the banshee mask an 'irresistable force' but the iniative boost from furious charge is not?

BishopX wrote:

yakface wrote:
I'll try to give you another example to help make it a bit more clear. If a rule says:


A) Model 'X' always hits on a '2+' in close combat.


Compared with:


B) Model 'X' always hits on a '2+' in close combat, regardless of comparative weapon skills.


Does a model with rule 'A' actually behave any differently than a model with rule 'B' in the game? The answer is no. While the additional phrasing in 'B' provides further clarification of how the rule works, logically in the game, both rules work the same.

No, rule B implies it only works against models with a WS value .

Personally I would go lash whip over riding banshee mask simply because of the greater specificity. Banshee masks allow the unit to strike at I10, while lash whips effect the model. Giving precedence to lash whips introduces more depth to the game while having banshee masks negating lash whips lets you play rock paper scissors.

And logically speaking, that is a fallacy that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Just because the text at the end explains one circumstance in which the rule applies (regardless of comparative weapon skills) does not dictate that this is the only situation the rule applies in. Logically, models with ability 'B' always hit on a 2+ in close combat...whether it is in combat with something with a weapon skill or not.

Arschbombe wrote:

yakface wrote:
So just to be clear, as far as we're concerned regarding the INAT, on this matter RAW we believe it is clearly a case of 'irresistible force vs. immovable object'.

The rules are different in their specificity. Banshee masks affects the entire unit while the lash whips are more specific, stating that they only affect those models in base contact. This means that some models in the banshee unit will still go at I10.

Why is the banshee mask an 'irresistable force' but the iniative boost from furious charge is not?

Its not that the Banshee mask rule is an 'irresistible force', its that it does the same thing that the Lash Whip does, which is what makes this an 'irresistible force vs. immovable object' scenario.

Both the Banshee Mask and the Lash Whip make the model count as having a different Initiative value for the round of combat. You are incorrect that the Banshee mask affects the entire unit...there is nothing in its rules that specifically says so and it is a piece of wargear that each Banshee model has that gives them the ability. For example, if Banshees had the option to swap out their mask for something else would we be claiming that the Banshees in the unit that didn't have the mask would still get the bonus?


The reality is a Banshee mask makes the model count as having I10 for the round while the Lash Whip makes the model count as being I1 for the round...they do the same thing.


Furious Charge, or anything which simply adds or subtracts a value to the existing Initiative value of the model is different. You can either assume that the addition/subtraction happens before the Lash Whip ability takes effect or after it does...the rules simply aren't clear on the matter, but IMO, most people tend to play that the Lash Whip affect occurs after the Furious Charge bonus is applied and therefore the models remain at I1 when in base contact against a Lash Whip.

yakface wrote:And logically speaking, that is a fallacy that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Just because the text at the end explains one circumstance in which the rule applies (regardless of comparative weapon skills) does not dictate that this is the only situation the rule applies in. Logically, models with ability 'B' always hit on a 2+ in close combat...whether it is in combat with something with a weapon skill or not.

This is true, the rules by RAW are effectively the same, but that being said, the second one does imply that it would not function against vehicles (other than walkers). While you are not wrong to argue they are the same rule, you will find most players will take the additional phrase and run with it to try and play a more RAI game I believe. While I don't think it necessarily alters RAW, I think the additional wording in rules can often tell us a significant amount about the intention of the author in writing it.

But that's neither here nor there in this instance IMO.

yakface wrote:Its not that the Banshee mask rule is an 'irresistible force', its that it does the same thing that the Lash Whip does, which is what makes this an 'irresistible force vs. immovable object' scenario.

Both the Banshee Mask and the Lash Whip make the model count as having a different Initiative value for the round of combat. You are incorrect that the Banshee mask affects the entire unit...there is nothing in its rules that specifically says so and it is a piece of wargear that each Banshee model has that gives them the ability. For example, if Banshees had the option to swap out their mask for something else would we be claiming that the Banshees in the unit that didn't have the mask would still get the bonus?


The reality is a Banshee mask makes the model count as having I10 for the round while the Lash Whip makes the model count as being I1 for the round...they do the same thing.

I think the thing here is, most people see that the banshees aren't really a "counts as" situation (they actually become initiative 10 for that round) and form a chronological order from that, more so than deriving a power in the wording. Of course, I can't speak for everyone, given that I'm having a debate about something related in this thread, but it seems most people apply stat changes in the order:

Replacements
Multiplication/Division
Addition/Subtraction

While I can't cite numbers or RAW for WHY replacements are first, this seems to generally be the accepted idea, with for example, an ork unit that substitutes the number of boyz for their leadership still able to be affected by leadership modifiers.

The Banshee mask is clearly a replacement, I doubt anyone would dispute that.

So it comes down to is "counts as" also just another replacement effect, or is it another class of stat changing events. And you go on to suggest that traditionally, counts as happens after the other modifiers.

yakface wrote:Furious Charge, or anything which simply adds or subtracts a value to the existing Initiative value of the model is different. You can either assume that the addition/subtraction happens before the Lash Whip ability takes effect or after it does...the rules simply aren't clear on the matter, but IMO, most people tend to play that the Lash Whip affect occurs after the Furious Charge bonus is applied and therefore the models remain at I1 when in base contact against a Lash Whip.

how are the rules worded for units with different Init. values work? don't you use the highest?? if so then i would think that the banshee mask wins out if not all banshee models in the unit are not in base to base contact with the lash whip model, cuz lash whip only effects the models in b2b

The models in base to base would strike at base / I1, others woudl strike at I10.

Mixed initiatives within a unit is handled exactly how you would expect, and have done for 3 editions now.