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Okay, I've been mulling this over since I finished A Thousand Sons over the weekend...
The writing was, well, okay. But there were just so many bits and pieces in there that just didn't work for me.
Right... I'll raise some of the issues I have in a spoiler box just to be safe.
Spoiler:
First, what did Graham McNeill do to the Council of Nikaea?!? Did I read that right? The Emperor orders ALL Librarians to rejoin their battle companies and no longer use their powers? (p355) So why are there Librarians in 40k? Did I miss something there? The "old" version of The Emperor's decree was a compromise. No "sorcery", but Librarians could remain. Something for both sides. Mr. McNeill threw that completely out the window... Worse still (and, again, unless I'm missing something) it causes a huge continuity problem since Librarians exist in the 40k timeline, post-Nikaea.
Second, did the Thousand Sons really disobey a direct order from Magnus not to fight the Space Wolves? (p479-80) Seriously?!? A Legion disobeys the direct order of their Primarch? I know some fragments of other Legions disobeyed their Primarchs when those orders would result in Civil War or a breaking of their fealty to The Emperor, but loyalty to The Emperor of a Primarch doesn't play here. For a Legion that's supposed to be as analytical and detached as the 1kSons are, their eagerness to fight doesn't make sense (unless Mr. McNeill is actually playing off one of my points below about the parallels between the Legions and I missed it).
And then, why does Magnus fight Leman Russ (after the Battle for Prospero is all but lost) when he's already said he won't fight?
Okay, those are the real WTF?!?! bits to me, but there's a bunch of stuff that just didn't ring true to me...
Now, I'll admit that I'm more than a bit biased since I'm a long-time Thousand Sons fan, but the whole "why Magnus turned to Tzeentch" bit really didn't work for me. Again, I guess it's just because Mr. McNeill has changed things from the accounts we had previously.
I guess I was always a fan of the idea that Magnus MIGHT just have been right about the power of Sorcery and only turned to Tzeentch at the very end when Leman and his wolves threatened to destroy everything Magnus had created. This new version suggests Magnus had cast his lot far earlier than that, even if he hadn't realized it. I dunno, just seems to weaken the tragedy of the 1kSons fall to me. Now it's just about Magnus' pride and hubris.
On the plus side I do like how Mr. McNeill handled the whole "if the Thousand Sons could see the future, why didn't they foresee the Space Wolf attak on Prospero". So one small kudo there...
I really wish Mr. McNeill had explored some of the similarities between the two Legions (yes, bear with me!). He throws in the Wulfen without ever bringing up the obvious parallel between the Wulfen and the Flesh Change of the 1kSons. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Similarly, it seems to me that the whole "there are no wolves on Fenris" bit strongly(!) suggested the Wolves of Fenris were not un-akin to the Tutelaries.
He also raises the issue of Russ's "savage barbarian" face just being a facade. Which then calls into question what the root of the emnity between the two Legions really was. Just thinking out-loud, but it'd've been interesting if there was an animosity between the two because of the differing responses of the two Primarchs to the flaws in their respective Legions' geneseed.
Then there's the bit about how Magnus warns The Emperor. So now he just breaks into the Webway and travels to Terra? That's it? The older version, to me at least, showed the true power of Magnus since he was able to project his warning into one of the most psychically defended locations in the galaxy. And now he just breaks into the Webway (albeit with some help from Tzeentch)? Just didn't work for me.
Finally, I seem to recall either Mr. McNeill or Mr. Abnett mentioning that the "true purpose" of the Space Wolves would be revealed. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see any great revelation on that front. Perhaps it'll have to wait for Prospero Burns.
Unfortunately, this book's cemented my opinion of Graham McNeill's recent HH books in my mind. I actually quite enjoyed False Gods and Fulgrim, but Mechanicus fell very flat to me and (as much as I REALLY wanted to like it), so did A Thousand Sons. Mr. McNeill seems to have some decent ideas to contribute to the HH series, and his writing's not bad (by the standards of such things), but they just fail to come together into an evocative account of what happened. I had the same thoughts about Mechanicus when I read it. The material had absolutely great potential but the book just didn't do it justice.
I guess I'm hoping that Dan Abnett can pull out the pair with his contribution, but for the book purporting to tell the story from the perspective of my favorite fallen Legion, A Thousand Sons just didn't do it. It's not in the class of Descent of Angels of Battle for the Abyss, but it's definitely not one of the better books.
Huh... All that typing and I still don't feel like I've adequately captured why I didn't like the book... Anyway, I'm sure someone will point out if I have something wrong about any of the above, but them's my two cents and I felt like ranting...
Vale,
JohnS
Valete,
JohnS
"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"
Blech that's a downer. I've always felt that the 1K Sons sub-plot was one of the best of the Horus Heresy, and was looking forward to having this book explore it. Sad to hear Mr McNeill wasn't up to the task :( Still wanna read it, but I'll just borrow instead of buy.
I heard some years ago that SW were to be utilised if any of the legions fell from the Emperor. Their fighting style and psyche being the best suited to taking on and containing their 'brothers'.
Onto the book itself, it sounds sucky but you need to read them knowing that they aren't, directly, 'cannon' nor do the authors have to refer to any previous info or fluff.
Mr. Burning wrote:The true purpose of the Space Wolves?
I heard some years ago that SW were to be utilised if any of the legions fell from the Emperor. Their fighting style and psyche being the best suited to taking on and containing their 'brothers'.
Onto the book itself, it sounds sucky but you need to read them knowing that they aren't, directly, 'cannon' nor do the authors have to refer to any previous info or fluff.
Oh, I understand there's a danger in treating them as "cannon", although I'd argue that saying they're not cannon is really a cop-out for lazy authors...
I also remember the bit about the SW being used if a Legion fell. Problem is, there's nothing in A Thousand Sons that really backs that up... There's also the problem that building a legion with punishing a rebellion in mind seems kind of odd considering how "unthinkable" the idea of a Primarch turning on The Emperor was supposed to be. Still, it's possible, but there's nothing in A Thousand Sons that really plays to that angle.
Vale,
JohnS
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/23 22:08:25
Valete,
JohnS
"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"
It's 'canon'...not the "Boom Head Shot 'cannon'"...
Should I buy it? Thinking of Soul Hunters too......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/23 22:15:19
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
Erm, yes they are in fact 'canon' as are Time Of Legends.
So suck it up. Just finished reading it myself, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I don't get why people get so bent out of shape about the background. It's a fluid environment, written from a mythical point of view. Things get confused and corrupted down the milennia, until the truth is all but lost.
As for confusions, wait for Prospero Burns. They were scheduled to be released one after the other for a reason.
Oh, and
Spoiler:
There Are No Wolves On Fenris to my mind refers to genetic tampering which devolved early inhabitants into Wolf like creatures. Makes a point about the Wolves adapatibility, and also mentions the Canis Helix. Clearly, the Canis Helix is a sort of genetic patch to sort out this rogue DNA which would exist in all Fenrisians, to stabilise them and allow the implantation of Gene Seed
As for the council of Nikaea
Spoiler:
The Emperor did indeed say 'knock it off with the powers' and disbanded the Librarius. Doesn't prevent someone in the future changing that for the good of the Imperium. Look at the Bible where the exact words of Jesus, God or whomever are still debated over to this day, let alone the meaning. Even the 10 Commandments Thou Shalt Not Kill can be read Thou Shalt Not Murder. Pretty different orders really.
And the battle for Prosper
Spoiler:
Could be influence of the Tutelaries, who are clearly daemonic in origin and influence. It is established early on that Prospero is a world soaked in the Aether, so not unreasonable to assume the Tutelaries can exert influence very subtly there. Plus they had kind of lost faith in Magnus, seeing how wrong he'd got things
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/24 11:26:39
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
The change to what happened at the "Trial of Magnus" with the outright banning of the librarians is lifted straight from the "Visions.." series, I suspect the alteration to the use of Astartes Battle Psykers might well occur later in the series.
As to Ahriman and co. disobeying their Primarch..well.... we see that all the time in the series already. Plus it also fits with what else we know about Ahriman -- both with regards to the Rubric and also him sending the soldiers into the Holy Ground after Magnus at the start of the story./ I see it as further evidence of Magnus encouraging his marines to be free thinkers far more so than other legions. Plus...
..well... from the Legions' perspective they saw this as, ultimately, yet another betrayal and affect over which they had no control or say at all. To find that you'd all been damned ages ago by the actions of the one person you thought you could trust above all others, and you're being, literally, thrown to the wolves despite knowing that everything you've done is for the best of intentions and reasons... I think it's more than fair to allow them to disobey orders.
Magnus has to sit out the fight as, otherwise, he's proving all their critics correct. However... it's hard to simply sit there and watch everything you have worked for die, to watch your "sons" be slaughtered despite them having done no wrong. So he fights Russ knowing he'll lose... his death is the sacrificial component of the spell that "saves" (well finally damns anyway) his Legion. And then, as both reward and punishment, he's reborn/saved by Tzeentch as well.
I also disagree strongly with your assessment with regards to the webway. This is, again, a change brought about by the "Visions.." series, and I think this works much better than simply having Magnus "phone" the Emperor and tell him what's going on. IT also shows us how hubris was Magnus' folly, and reinforces the explanation of what the hell the Emperor was doing during the Heresy itself.
The now wolves on FEnris part is, I reckon, a reference to bits we'll read about in the books companion piece by Mr. Abnett.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
First let me say this was the first Mcneil book I really enjoyed. I read it today (in practically one sitting).
Spoiler:
@MDG Ah your wolves aren't wolves explanation makes more sense then that the wolves are tuetaliges or whatever they are called.
My question is IIRC Magnus and his sons take part in the siege fo terra. So therefore by this point he is not remotely loyal and is a proper traitor at this point. Yet we have Ahriman waxing on about being loyal, so therefore the rubric and him parting ways happen before even the seige of terra. Is my understanding correct?
I thought it was pretty obvious that the book spelt out that space wolves are made to take down traitors. They are close minded, lack mercy and ferocious. Also The Emperor only sends them plus some custodes to take out an entire legion. That to me implies Thats what they were made for.
Finally I really like how they made Magnus destroy the emperor great work. And shed some light on what it was also. I totally understood/empathized why magnus would not want to fight and was just waiting to be punished.
My other query was what do you guys think happened to the thousand sons fleet? Did they get destroyed afterwards or what?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/01 16:34:43
