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Being new to 40k, putting together a good list is proving to be difficult.

The list I have right now looks something like this:
3x tactical squad w/melta, ML, and rhino
Vindicator
2x ven. Dreads w/drop pods
5 assault termies and terminator chaplain in Land raider redeemer
Devastator squad w/2 plasma cannons, 2 lascannons, razorback


That's what I have right now. I know it's incomplete and fractured, any help/advice regarding adding or revising anything would be appreciated

Well the question I would want to know is that if you have the Space marines codex or are you playing any codex chapter.

I would also like to know how many points you are playing with. That list is actually very nice as is though. What powers were you planning on giving the librarian? Gates of Infinity and Null Zone would be badass wit the assault termies. You could also just get rid of the Redeemer and add more termies.

Good list so far but obivously needs a HQ choice.

Drop the devs and get another vindicator, dual threat then Plus devs are expensive.

Don't you see the Terminator chaplain mercer.


It looks like a nice solid list.

Those are 3 10 man tactical squads each with rhinos right? if so a good tactic is to combat squad and leave the missile launcher halfs back with the Dev squad to provide fire support while the melta squads and sergeants cruize around and perform drive bys on enemy tanks.

What do the Drednoughts have as far as weapons go? as long as they arn't Dakka dreds(Tl-lascannon and ML, these should be stationary in the back field) the drop pods are great.

Vindicator is good(always play it defensevly though)

Termies and redeemer is good

Devestator squad is good. (pop tank and meqs without losing economy of fire)

Ah! I did not see the terminator chaplain! lol . Go terminator librarian instead with nullzone! Your terminators will be causing invulnerable saves and nullzone forces re-rolls. If the chaplain gets caught up in combat his special rule doesn't apply as it only works when charging!

Thanks to everyone for the replies!To answer as to the points range, most people in my newly discovered gaming group play marines/MEQ's (one marines/daemonhunters, one CSMs/Daemons, one Necrons player), mech guard, and nids, at 2500 points, though that doesn't cover the other players I don't know at the two local stores.

To adress a point brought up earlier: sorry about the dreads, one is packing MM/DCCW and HF, the second one has AC/DCCW and HF, although with dreads loadouts aren't really a problem since arms are swapable.

Now I have a few questions of my own:
1) just how viable are the devastators? The massive amount of heavy weapons they carry is appealing, but it's true that for a unit that sits back, they do cost alot. Taking it one step further, are two dev squads viable? If I'm going to have my heavy support just sitting back is it better to take a Vindi and a dev squad, two vindis, or two dev squads? The dev squads cost much more, but they have a higher attack output and each combat squad with two heavy weapons has 3 meatshields. (if I really can't decide I may just take two devs and the vindi)


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2) a librarian w/gate of infinity & null zone: what pros would he have over a termie chaplain? Chaplain allows reroll to hit on charge, while any termies with LCs will reroll to wound. This is actually a serious question as I am not too familiar with librarians, but what would he bring to the unit?

3) since my list isn't at 2500, I'd like to get opinions on units that would complement the existing list. I'd love any advice!


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Oops, forgot ... @Malkin12: Vanilla SMs, no unique codex

Dev squads are never viable in 5th, excepting maybe 4 missile launchers in a t-l las razorback.

your assault termis should have TH+SS

Gate of infinity is risky with the squad(you do not want your ultra survivable termis lost to the warp)

A land raider Crusader/Redeemer would be a good fit. I prefer a crusader in my lists(with mm extra armor, and pintle storm bolter; 270 points).

Dreads are fine as is; although claiming extra armor will help them survive even more

I'd also take an Assault squad with 3 plasma pistols, power fist, combat sheild, and melta bombs(270 points)

finally get another squad of tac Marines; put the lascannons and Plasma Cannons in the Tac Squads.

@Kommissar Kel:
Please excuse me if this seems like a dumb question, but what difference is there between a dev squad and a combat squadded tac squad that leaves its heavy weapon back to shoot? Why is it that in the 5th devs aren't viable? I've heard that running 4 HBs/PCs/MLs is a good idea in dev squads... (but what do I know?)

As to running tac squads with las/PCs, I had thought of running them with las/melta/pf and having a 4 man PC dev squad or running tac squads with MLs and giving the devs 2 PC and 2 las

Including an assault marine squad as counterassault was something I thought about also, but I couldn't decide to field a 5- or 10 man squad (chaplain would probably work better here than in the termie squad)

Both the crusader and redeemer are good for horde, but the redeemer's flamestorm cannons allow it to be effective against MEQs also. Only downside is less capacity.

Librarian: ok, not taking gate of infinity makes sense if he's in a high priced and valuable unit...

Librarian can use gate of infinity to teleport. But as your taking a land raider this is now use. Nullzone forces re-rolls on successful invulnerable saves, which has a 24" raidus. Imagine your playing daemons...or other armies which use invulnerables saves i.e other terminators. That benefit is for your army. The chaplain benefits a unit only and if you get stuck in assault the chaplains re-roll to hit won't work again.

Here is some librarian vs chaplain tactica on my blog. HOwever I no use a librarian instead of a chaplain: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2009/11/librarian-vs-chaplain.html

Dev squads end up costing a fair bit and you really need a bodybag for each marnie with a special weapon. In total they end up costing about 250 points maybe more for a full squad! You can get tanks and even a land raider for those points. They just cost too much at the end of the day.

But if you combat-squad devs then each group of 2 specials gets 3 meatshields. Also, if an opponent focuses all his fire on taking out the devs, it would provide a distraction for other units to grab objectives or get into rapidfire/assault range with a little less trouble. (again, I'm not trying to be contradictory, I just want to learn more)


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Also @ Mercer:
I read your tactica, and the librarian seems to have a lot going for him. On the replies to the tactica I saw someone say they used bot chaplain and librarian in a unit: that raises interesting possibilities; having the librarian with Avenger, Null Zone, and epistolary upgrade and a chaplain both attached to a TH+SS unit of terminators would be completely ridiculous.
However to do that I would have to use the LR Crusader instead of the Redeemer

It is a brutal combonation

If there is an enemy IC it is easier to ID the enemy charactor, because of the reroll to hit.

You do have to be careful about the chaplains ability to make the squad fearless. Don't get stuck in a fight you can't win. even with terminators you don't want to be taking no retreat rolls.

Noob001 wrote:@Kommissar Kel:
Please excuse me if this seems like a dumb question, but what difference is there between a dev squad and a combat squadded tac squad that leaves its heavy weapon back to shoot? Why is it that in the 5th devs aren't viable? I've heard that running 4 HBs/PCs/MLs is a good idea in dev squads... (but what do I know?)

the combat squads are both scoring. also they are far less expensive points wise 175 for a plasma cannon and 2 scoring units/9 ablative wounds vs 115 for the devs

Noob001 wrote:But if you combat-squad devs then each group of 2 specials gets 3 meatshields. Also, if an opponent focuses all his fire on taking out the devs, it would provide a distraction for other units to grab objectives or get into rapidfire/assault range with a little less trouble. (again, I'm not trying to be contradictory, I just want to learn more)


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Also @ Mercer:
I read your tactica, and the librarian seems to have a lot going for him. On the replies to the tactica I saw someone say they used bot chaplain and librarian in a unit: that raises interesting possibilities; having the librarian with Avenger, Null Zone, and epistolary upgrade and a chaplain both attached to a TH+SS unit of terminators would be completely ridiculous.
However to do that I would have to use the LR Crusader instead of the Redeemer

Yes you can combat squad them down. But my point is that a full unit of devs with 15 point weapons comes to 230 points! That's a lot and without transport. Something you could do it keep 'em cheap and use them for tank busting. Get a squad of 5 with 2 multi meltas and pop them in a rhino. They can now shoot out the hatch and you have 3 body bags. That unit would cost 155 inc the transport. Still expensive but more feasible than a full squad I think. Devs, bottom line are expensive.

A chaplain and librarian in the same squad would be deadly. Terminators which re-roll to hit and opponent re-rolls successful invulnerable saves! Yes please!

Why would you have to use a redeemer instead of a crusader?

Hmmm, I see your points. So devs are expensive to the point where having 1.5 meatshields per heavy weapon for a unit that sits back, whereas tac squads are much more flexible and have more meatshields per heavy (9:1). Even so, I think keeping one squad of devs with PCs for anti SM/MEQ or HBs for anti-horde and kitting out the tac squads with MLs/LCs for anti-armor/transport is something I should experiment with.

@ Mercer: Redeemer can only carry 6 termies, crusader can carry 8, so I'd have to use the crusader to carry 5 termies + termie librarian + termie chaplain

Yes that's correct. But having 9 meat shields for 1 heavy weapon is a waste. You should break them down into combat squads and you'll get 4 bodies for the heavy weapon.

If you want heavy bolters get a dakka pred, a predator with heavy bolters. It costs 85 points and you get 2 heavy bolters and a autocannon. Hell go nuts and add a storm bolter and you've got a unit which can do just as much as a dev squad and cheaper.

Ah, yes. Forgot the different transport capacitiy on the land raider variants.

@ Mercer:
Forgot to take into account combat squadding, which would give you 4 meatshields... As to the dakka pred, since it's a tank, won't any opponent playing a horde army (orks, nids, IG infantry) target it with any anti-tank he/she's got, as it's a threat? I'd think that 2 groups of 5 guys with 2 HBs/PCs would seem alot less threatening, and less susceptible to dedicated anti-tank.

Mercer also forgot that Multi-meltas can't shoot out of the hatch of a rhino because MMs are heavy weapons.

Don't ever give infantry MMs. they are too short ranged for a weapon that can't move and shoot.

Were I ever to use MMs it would be on landspeeders or a droppodded dread (which I am doing)


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speaking of land speeders, I was wondering whether or not to include one or two land speeders with HB/HF for extra anti-infantry or MM/ML for vehicle hunting

Grey Templar wrote:Mercer also forgot that Multi-meltas can't shoot out of the hatch of a rhino because MMs are heavy weapons.

Don't ever give infantry MMs. they are too short ranged for a weapon that can't move and shoot.

Heavy weapons can be shot out of the top hatch. The rhino just cannot move that turn.

I agree with the second statement.

OK my first statement was poorly worded


A longer ranged weapon for dev squads makes sense in a rhino where they are protected, but having a relativly short ranged weapon that can't be fired if you move dosn't make sense if you are in a vehicle. just take a Drednought if you want mobile Multimeltas(even then there are more effective choices for a dreds weapons)

So from what I've picked up so far, the new list looks something like:
2 tac squads w/plasmagun, LC, pf, rhino
2 tac squads w/meltagun, PC, pf, rhino
Vindicator
Dakka predator
Epistolary librarian w/null zone, avenger, in terminator armor, terminator chaplain, 5 assault termies w/TH+SS, Landraider Crusader w/TL-AC as dedicated transport
Venerable dread with MM, DCCW/HF, droppod w/locator beacon
Venerable dread with AC, DCCW/HF, extra armor

One glaring weakness of this list is the lack of fast attack. Kommissar Kel brought up the assault squad, with 3 plasmapistols, pf, cs, and meltabombs, but again, I was wondering whether this is a 5 or 10 man squad. I was also thinking about using landspeeders, but wasn't sure whether to field them as a squadron or individually, and which role to use them in. Any advice?

if you have the slots run them seperatly.

any vehicles in a squadron that become immobilized are destroyed. This is compansated with only ever being stunned not shaken.

I don't think its worth the risk of losing a vehicle.

Typhoons are the best IMO. 2 shot missile launchers and heavy bolters are a great bargin and being able to get a 4+ cover while firing both weapons is priceless.

Noob001 wrote:So from what I've picked up so far, the new list looks something like:
2 tac squads w/plasmagun, LC, pf, rhino
2 tac squads w/meltagun, PC, pf, rhino
Vindicator
Dakka predator
Epistolary librarian w/null zone, avenger, in terminator armor, terminator chaplain, 5 assault termies w/TH+SS, Landraider Crusader w/TL-AC as dedicated transport
Venerable dread with MM, DCCW/HF, droppod w/locator beacon
Venerable dread with AC, DCCW/HF, extra armor

One glaring weakness of this list is the lack of fast attack. Kommissar Kel brought up the assault squad, with 3 plasmapistols, pf, cs, and meltabombs, but again, I was wondering whether this is a 5 or 10 man squad. I was also thinking about using landspeeders, but wasn't sure whether to field them as a squadron or individually, and which role to use them in. Any advice?

Sorry 10 man(it's the only way you can have 3 PPs)

Grey Templar wrote:Mercer also forgot that Multi-meltas can't shoot out of the hatch of a rhino because MMs are heavy weapons.

Don't ever give infantry MMs. they are too short ranged for a weapon that can't move and shoot.

Aye, I know that. But better than foot slogging, yes?

i suppose, but why not get a missile launcher, combat squad and have the melta-gun ride in the rhino and save the trouble.

besides the enemy has to stay within melta-range for it to be worth while and no one is going to stay still that long.

A missile launcher would be better. I'd only put MM's in rhinos if I took vulcan tbh. At the mo I run combat squads with missile launcher and melta gun in razorbacks.

thought only one ven. dread per army, must be the old dex...

That restriction is gone now

Noob001 wrote:So from what I've picked up so far, the new list looks something like:
2 tac squads w/plasmagun, LC, pf, rhino
2 tac squads w/meltagun, PC, pf, rhino
Vindicator
Dakka predator
Epistolary librarian w/null zone, avenger, in terminator armor, terminator chaplain, 5 assault termies w/TH+SS, Landraider Crusader w/TL-AC as dedicated transport
Venerable dread with MM, DCCW/HF, droppod w/locator beacon
Venerable dread with AC, DCCW/HF, extra armor

This updated list is still a mess, unfortunately.

First tact squad has a plasma gun and a power fist, you cannot charge if you use rapid fire weapons, so this is a bad combo. Lascannon? Get a free missile launcher instead. And if you are doing combat squads razorbacks add that additional fire power.

Take tanks in pairs as easy to prioritise. I would take two vindicators.

A single land raider is a easy target, take two for dual threat

A single dreadnought coming in via drop pod is a dead dread. You want to send in a single suicide dreadnought then sent a normal dreadnought as it costs a lot cheaper. Though if your taking drop pods you need multiples and best taking a odd number.