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As of the new FAQ, the Deffrolla works on tanks.

As such, what does this mean in context, considering a ram is a type of tankshock?

Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!


This causes us to question the order in which the ram occurs, and whether vehicles also suffer the 2D6 if they stop it.

I'd like to suggest the following order

1. Ram declared
2. Ram movement
3. Roll for initial ram damage
4. If the enemy is exploded, go from step 2 again (following normal ram rules up to here)
5. If the enemy is not, deal 2D6 S10 hits to enemy (Deffrolla rules stepping in, because the Tank Shock was stopped)
6. Stop (the ram finished at the start of step 5, so it doesn't continue)

Deffrollas looking nicer now?

You are taking the question out of context, or more, it's poorly worded, but it's meaning is obvious.

the question should read "If a unit opts to death or glory when being Tank Shocked by a Battlewagon with a Deff Rolla, and succesfully destroys, stuns, or immobilises the Battlewagon, does it still suffer the Deff Rolla hits"

In terms of a ram, it would mean the tank still takes the D6 S10 hits even if the Battlewagon blows itself up in the ram, a ram will never lead to 2d6 S10 hits (except maybe with a walker? Not sure if they can DoG or not, and can't check right now)

edit: Walkers can DoG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since there's already enough Deffrolla threads around I'm wondering how do you determine what arc the D6 S10 hits strike a vehicle on, is it the same side the ram hits on, or the side that the Deffrolla is located on or what?

It becomes notably relevant because a Walker who attempts DoG will recieve the ram on it's rear armour, instead of whatever side is facing the opponent.

Drunkspleen wrote:
Since there's already enough Deffrolla threads around I'm wondering how do you determine what arc the D6 S10 hits strike a vehicle on, is it the same side the ram hits on, or the side that the Deffrolla is located on or what?

It becomes notably relevant because a Walker who attempts DoG will recieve the ram on it's rear armour, instead of whatever side is facing the opponent.

This^^

I'm guessing that since no other instructions apply to the Deffrolla hits, then the hits will be applied against the facing that the BW is actually hitting...

Of course a walker that failed the dodge roll would be hit by the 2D6 S10 hits on its rear armour.

PhantomViper wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:
Since there's already enough Deffrolla threads around I'm wondering how do you determine what arc the D6 S10 hits strike a vehicle on, is it the same side the ram hits on, or the side that the Deffrolla is located on or what?

It becomes notably relevant because a Walker who attempts DoG will recieve the ram on it's rear armour, instead of whatever side is facing the opponent.

This^^

I'm guessing that since no other instructions apply to the Deffrolla hits, then the hits will be applied against the facing that the BW is actually hitting...

Of course a walker that failed the dodge roll would be hit by the 2D6 S10 hits on its rear armour.

Why would the walker get it on his rear armour though, like, it kind of makes sense since the ram hits there, but the deff rolla doesn't specify that it hits the same side as the ram, and the deff rolla also isn't actually behind the walker. Just a new RAW issue that we will be waiting months to have FAQd.

Drunkspleen wrote: Just a new RAW issue that we will be waiting months to have won't be FAQd.

Fixed that for you.

But I agree...seems like the most appropriate result would be that the 1d6 hits the facing on the side of the deffrolla, without it giving any instructions to the contrary.

Drunkspleen wrote:It becomes notably relevant because a Walker who attempts DoG will recieve the ram on it's rear armour, instead of whatever side is facing the opponent.

I thought this was only if he failed the DoG. The walker can choose to just brace for the hit and take it on the front.

You can ram equal or higher AV?

G

4th ed alzeihmers FTW

Green Blow Fly wrote:You can ram equal or higher AV?

G

You;re remembering 4th ed, sort of.

In 5th you can ram anything of any AV as long as you're a tank, but if you hit something of higher AV it will (almost always) hit you back harder than you hit it.

I think if a ram ends up destroying the vehicle that initiated the ram then the deffrolla attacks wont go off.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think if a ram ends up destroying the vehicle that initiated the ram then the deffrolla attacks wont go off.

G

Deffrolla damage only happens when the Battlewagon(or other forgeworld orky vehicle with a deffrolla) rams.

and Walkers are only hit on the rear when they choos to DoG and fail to stop the vehicle. So a Dread that DOGs takes 2d6 hits at all times to the rear if it fails to stop the battlewagon(or other forgeworld orky vehicle with a deffrolla)

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think if a ram ends up destroying the vehicle that initiated the ram then the deffrolla attacks wont go off.

G

Deffrolla damage only happens when the Battlewagon(or other forgeworld orky vehicle with a deffrolla) rams.

and Walkers are only hit on the rear when they choos to DoG and fail to stop the vehicle. So a Dread that DOGs takes 2d6 hits at all times to the rear if it fails to stop the battlewagon(or other forgeworld orky vehicle with a deffrolla)

I would think in light of the FAQ in the OP, the walker would suffer the hits regardless of whether it stops the ram or not.

Wait, so what part of my thought is wrong? FAQ=RAW for all but GWAR related purposes. There is a question asking whether a unit (vehicles are units) that successfully stop (if they aren't destroyed by it, they stop it) the Tank Shock (Tank Shock = Ram) suffers hits. The answer is yes, it suffers 2D6 hits.

The question makes no reference to the DoG rule, so it's hardly as if I'm taking it out of context. I'm just applying the rules in the FAQ. It's RAI, because the entire FAQ was updated, meaning that you can't even claim I'm abusing an older rule with a new one.

2D6 hits.

I wonder what GWAR's opinion on this is?

Who cares what Gwar's opinion is? I'm more concerned about the hornet's nest of rule problems that have been opened up since the new truth came down off the mountain.

More to the point, since the "special" part of the rule has been redacted from the heretical texts, can a non-walker vehicle Death or Glory a ram? Does the Battlewagon still cause a regular ramming hit in addition to the Deff Rolla? What happens if a Battlewagon ramming a Dreadnought is destroyed by Death or Glory?

Pika_power wrote:Wait, so what part of my thought is wrong? FAQ=RAW for all but GWAR related purposes. There is a question asking whether a unit (vehicles are units) that successfully stop (if they aren't destroyed by it, they stop it) the Tank Shock (Tank Shock = Ram) suffers hits. The answer is yes, it suffers 2D6 hits.

The section you refer to is for tank shocks, not rams. The ram piece is covered in the last question of the FAQ:

Q. Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming
vehicles or does it only work when Tank
Shocking non-vehicle units?
A. The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock.

Arschbombe wrote:
The section you refer to is for tank shocks, not rams. The ram piece is covered in the last question of the FAQ:

Q. Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming
vehicles or does it only work when Tank
Shocking non-vehicle units?
A. The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock.

...did you read the answer you quoted?

It's simple:

1. It should be clear that the rammed vehicle hasn't stopped the ram from occurring since it took damage.
2. Because ramming is a type of tank shock, since the rammed vehicle hasn't stopped the ram, that means it hasn't stopped the tank shock.
3. Since it hasn't stopped the tank shock, there's just the normal D6 hits.

Um, yes.

There are two questions in the FAQ. One of them refers to tank shock and the other refers to ramming. That ramming is a form of tank shock is only relevant for confirming that the deffrolla works against vehicles.

Compare the two questions:

Q. Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff
Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock suffer
any hits?
A. Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2D6 S10 hits!

Q. Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming
vehicles or does it only work when Tank
Shocking non-vehicle units?
A. The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock.

Which one do you think applies to vehicles and which one applies to non-vehicles? Or do you think they apply to both?

Both apply to the rules.

A tank shock is equal to a ram, which is why the deffrolla works at all. Thus my interpretation is correct.

Pika_power wrote:Both apply to the rules.

A tank shock is equal to a ram, which is why the deffrolla works at all. Thus my interpretation is correct.

Only if you are a rules lawyer who tries to apply RAW to the FAQs to get hidden benefits, in which case your opponenet (if they are smart) will just refuse to play using the GW FAQs.

The RAI here is clear, when they say stopped, they are referring to stopping a tank mid tank-shock by performing a DoG action, thus the reference to 2d6 hits, because units that perform a DoG get an additional D6 hits inflicted on top of the normal ones.

So can my LR Death or Glory since Ramming is a type of Tank Shock?

As for the original question, the Deff Rolla rule specifically mentions you only get the 2D6 hits if you actually take a Death or Glory.

Gornall wrote:So can my LR Death or Glory since Ramming is a type of Tank Shock?

As for the original question, the Deff Rolla rule specifically mentions you only get the 2D6 hits if you actually take a Death or Glory.

Yes your LR can Death or Glory, but only once it passes it's morale test.

Edit: So if a LandRaider passes it's morale test (How do you pass with no Ld value ) you can DoG with the biggest gun it has.

ChrisCP wrote:Edit: So if a LandRaider passes it's morale test (How do you pass with no Ld value ) you can DoG with the biggest gun it has.

Well the trick is, 1: vehicles don't have a leadership test so they can't pass a morale check(and have a rule saying they never take morale checks for any reason), and 2: Even though Ramming is considered a form of Tank Shock, the ram rules never tell you to take a morale check.

So basically, if vehicles through some strange special rules in a codex were forced to take a morale check when rammed, then they would potentially be eligible to DoG, but as it stands, using the basic ram rules, the only way for a vehicle to DoG is using the special rules that walkers have.

DoG isn't a requirement for the 2D6 damage. It isn't mentioned in the point in question. If a unit stops the Ram, it takes 2D6 damage.

It is mentioned in the Deff Rolla's actual wording, not the FAQ:

"If the unit elects to make a Death or Glory attack, it takes a further D6 Strength 10 hits in addition to the usual effects."

Pretty clear IMO. If you attempt to DoG you take the 2D6 hits no matter whether you stop the BW or not.

Yes, I agree with you.

However, the FAQ makes no mention of the DoG attack at all. It just says units that stop a Tank Shock suffer 2D6 hits.

When apples are dropped, they bruise. This does not imply in any way that the statement "When fruit are dropped, they bruise" is incorrect. Likewise, just because the codex mentions the DoG, it doesn't mean that the FAQ, that doesn't mention the DoG, is wrong.

As far as intent goes, why put such a pointless question in their if it's just referring to DoG attacks? It's specifically laid out in the codex. It makes more sense logically if we interpret it to be telling us how to play it out for vehicles too.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think if a ram ends up destroying the vehicle that initiated the ram then the deffrolla attacks wont go off.

G

Deffrolla damage only happens when the Battlewagon(or other forgeworld orky vehicle with a deffrolla) rams.

and Walkers are only hit on the rear when they choos to DoG and fail to stop the vehicle. So a Dread that DOGs takes 2d6 hits at all times to the rear if it fails to stop the battlewagon(or other forgeworld orky vehicle with a deffrolla)

I would think in light of the FAQ in the OP, the walker would suffer the hits regardless of whether it stops the ram or not.

I never said they did't I said they only suffer the hits on REAR armor if they fail to stop it.

Pika: the only way to successfully stop a tank shock is via DoG

Pika_power wrote:Yes, I agree with you.

However, the FAQ makes no mention of the DoG attack at all. It just says units that stop a Tank Shock suffer 2D6 hits.

When apples are dropped, they bruise. This does not imply in any way that the statement "When fruit are dropped, they bruise" is incorrect. Likewise, just because the codex mentions the DoG, it doesn't mean that the FAQ, that doesn't mention the DoG, is wrong.

As far as intent goes, why put such a pointless question in their if it's just referring to DoG attacks? It's specifically laid out in the codex. It makes more sense logically if we interpret it to be telling us how to play it out for vehicles too.

I think the better assumption is that it's put in there to keep people from saying "My DoG killed your BW, so no 2D6 S10 hits for me."

The problem with applying the whole 2D6 thing to vehicles is how does it work? Okay, so your Deff Rolla BW fails to blow up my tank with its ram, so it stops. Do you apply 1D6 S10 hits then and check to see if it blows up my tank, and keep going if it does? If it doesn't then do you simply stop and get another 1D6 S10 hits to kill it? Or do you stop and get 2D6 S10 hits once the ram fails to kill the vehicle and not move any farther. TBH, that would tickle me pink, as now you're relying on your ram damage to pop a vehicle before you move on to the next. If your ram doesn't kill it, then sure you pretty much are certain of killing that first vehicle with your 2D6 hits, but you're stopped and not going anywhere.

I still think that because the only mention of the 2D6 in the Ork Codex is in relation to DoG, trying to randomly apply 2D6 hits to bouncing off a vehicle is reaching. If you really want to play word games, if the BW doesn't kill a vehicle and stops, did the vehicle "successfully stop it" or did the BW stop because it completed it's ram (and failed to kill the vehicle)?

Since a vehicle being rammed gets an "attack" back at the ramming vehicle...what happens if one rams a BW with deffrolla from the front? You know sooner or later its going to happen....



Sliggoth